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I answer questions (and Captain Sammitch and others) and you come right back and say the same thing of "how can you justify your position, it's just ignorant of you to say that?" when I (and others) just answered



When have I said that? I think you're attributing things to me that I haven't done, Dave.

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But if you're going to accuse me of things, then I think you have a responsibility to read what I and others have already said.



What have I accused you of? Other than making gays sound like the mafia.

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You don't even have to go back 26 pages, I JUST SAID in detail how that affects my ability to live as a Christian, or even as a non-religious person who objects to homosexuality on moral grounds.



I read all that. I'm arguing that it doesn't, at least, not in any capacity that deprives you of the rights you already had to beginwith.

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Legitimizing gays legally as a minority forces me to hire gays.
It forces me to rent apartments to gays.
It prevents me from insulating myself and my family from letting a pro-gay mindset override my own cultural beliefs.



You don't have to hire or rent to anyone. You just can't refuse someone a job or shelter on the simple principle of their sexual preference. There is a difference there, Dave.

I can't deny a Christian employment from my establishment because they are Christian, or a Jewish person employment because they're Jewish, or an African American because they're black, or a white because they're white, or a Native American because they're Indian, etc. etc. etc. Everyone else in the country has the right to not be discrimated against because of their race, gender, creed, or sexual preference. Yes, I'm aware that I'm repeating myself here, but I'm trying to drive this point home, because it's irrefutable.

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And labels any attemt to insulate myself from that lifestyle as "a hate-crime" or "discrimination".



It's a label because that's what it is, Dave. If a gay person is more qualified for a job than a straight person, and you deny the gay person that job simply because you don't believe homosexuality is right....that's discrimination.

discriminate:

"To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice"

I'll agree that calling it a "hate crime" is going a bit far, but it is, by definition, discrimination.

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That, once again, because you chose to ignore my previous responses, is an infringement on my right to follow my own beliefs, and does affect me personally.



Well, see, now we're crossing over into a different category here. Before we were talking about recognizing gays as a legitimate minority. Here I'm simply referring to allowing gay marriage. I don't think the basic act of marriage, between two parties that you don't care to socialize with or allow influence in your life already, really affects you. You can still believe that homosexuality is wrong, and you can still teach this to your children, if you so choose.

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No, a gay person doesn't have that right. Any more than a Christian has the right to go into a workplace or public school and evangelize to others.



How is a Christian going into a public school or workplace and trying to evangelize others comparable to a gay person not being discriminated against?

By gaining employment, you're not forcing your beliefs or your sexuality on someone else. You're just trying to earn a living, something that everyone else can do unrestrained.

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If a gay person is known to be gay, then it goes without question that they are making their homosexuality an issue, and essentially, promoting their gay beliefs and lifestyle by doing so.



I think there's a difference between living a gay life, and promoting that life. Some homosexuals choose to actively promote the acceptance or recognition of their beliefs, some don't. The same goes for most racial or religious groups.

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Christian teachers can't even say "Merry Christmas" to their students



???

My sister's teacher said Merry Christmas to me just last week when I went to pick her up.

Forgive me if this is "nitpicking", but it seems like a pretty important part of your argument.

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or display a nativity scene, or put a nativity scene in front of a firehouse or other government building without a backlash of legal action.



Can gays display something classically attributed to homosexuality? Can Jews display Moses or a Menorah? Can men display the male sign, or women the female sign?

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But gays have the right to profess their beliefs and force them on others through their own disproportionately defended freedom of expression.



I'm still not seeing how it's being forced on someone.

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That "spouting off recited ideas" could just as easily be said about the mainstream liberal/politically-correct arguments in defense of gay rights that you've just repeated.



It could be(I didn't limit that concept to purely conversative or religious ideas). If you're implying that I'm defending gays as a simple regurgitation of something my parents told me(and I'm not saying you are, I'm actually not sure), then I'm afraid you're quite mistaken.

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Parents have a right to follow their beliefs and teach their beliefs to their children.



Absolutely.

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It is not the function of teachers or the state to teach a contrary pro-gay belief system to students.



Nor is it the function of teachers or the state to teach an anti-gay belief system to students.

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If Christianity, and even "Merry Christmas" is banned from public schools, how disproportionately unfair and biased is it to say it's okay to teach pro-gay/anti-Christian values?



I haven't heard about Merry Christmas being banned, or Christianity as a whole. I think teachers should display impartial, unbiased, neutral information to their students, rather than provide a slanted view of the world. Any slant, pro-gay, anti-gay, whatever. It doesn't matter.

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If it was gay parents, and Christian teachers were teaching an opposing view that homosexuality is immoral, you wouldn't be arguing that it's the right of the children to hear both viewpoints and decide for themselves what to believe.



I think it's the responsibility of the parents to show both points of view(yes, even for gay parents to show the Christian pov). As I said before, I don't think teachers should display any kind of slant.

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Again, that's your soapbox editorial, and taking another dig at what I clearly already answered, but you just felt a need to editorialize one last time your self-presumed intellectual superiority on the issue.



I assume no intellectual superiority. I was simply presenting my point of view, in contrast to you presenting yours. That is, after all, what message boards are for. At no point did I state or suggest that my idea was better than yours. You're more than entitled to express your opinions in any discussion, just as I am.

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I made clear that freedom and equality existed for gays for 10 years, since "don't ask/don't tell" in the military began, and spousal benefits for gays began.



In that 10 year period, could gays attain a marriage license?

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Those who "simply want to live peacefully and go about their lives" are now trying to undermine my definition of marriage( and the Bible's definition of marriage and morality)



You've said this time and time again, but you've yet to actually illustrate how it undermines your definition of marriage. You can still have your definition. You can still believe it's wrong. You can still believe true marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

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Once again, you'e pointlessly repeated yourself. The question has been answered.



Where??? I didn't see it, sorry.

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Your point that "still stands" is indiscernable to me.



My point was that, according to that poll, 40% of the population is in favor of allowing gays to marry.

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It's again just the same question I've already answered re-cycled and thrown back at me again, needlessly.



It wasn't a question. It was a statement.

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My point is that the given 40%, who probably have listened to 3 decades of politically correct pro-gay propaganda, who probably have a contempt for the silliness of gay marriage as a concept, but figure, what the hell, let gays do what they want inside their own little sub-culture, assuming it won't affect them. But they're wrong.



Ok. My point is supported by research. Your point is based on "probably". As I've said before, you're entitled to your opinion, but in this case, I must respectfully disagree.

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Gays will push for even more "freedom" which will increasingly infringe on the rights of others. Especially Christians, and others with religious beliefs to the contrary of homosexuality.



I can't predict the future, but I will say that I believe gays should have the same rights and the same freedom as everyone else, and not one iota more. So, if what you suggest does happen, then we'll be on the same page(though perhaps from different angles).

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Your choice of words is clearly mocking, but that doesn't change the reality I addressed in my quoted comment.



I'm sorry if you took it that way, but I wasn't mocking. I thought you did make them sound like the mafia. You called gays "an intolerant and downright militant political force, who intimidate their critics into silence." That sounds like the mafia to me.

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Yes, but again --as I said repeatedly before-- gays have a very consistent tendency toward harassment and intimidation of their critics.



If that's your opinion, ok. Having had more experience with Christians than gays, I think they're more consistently forceful. Apparently, from your experiences, you believe the opposite. Perhaps the real truth lies somewhere in between? I don't know.

MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.