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KrazyXXXDJ said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
KrazyXXX DJ,

Your post indicates that you believe YOUR beliefs are the only ones that matter, and that anyone who disagrees with you has the right to be overrun by the agenda you advocate.




There you made your first assumption on my post. I never said my beliefs are the only ones that matter -- but my rights? Should be equal to yours at this point and are not.
When something is being held from me that is given to you and I can't have it just because of your beliefs, yes, I'll get a little testy.

Infringing on rights and infringing on beliefs are TWO different things.



I didn't assume anything. You outright said it.
Forgive me, but I just want to puke every time I see the "You can never know what it's like to be [ fill in the minority group whining about discrimination ]."

Not to single out your use of that argument, but just in general, every time I see it used. I find it a very unproductive and alienating stance.

What arrogance, to make a statement like that (again, the statement in general, not you personally).

In the history of the world, EVERY racial group has been oppressed, conquered or enslaved by another group.
So I wish we could dispense forever with that "You'll never know what it's like ..." crap.


You came on strong to me in your opening post, and then you were surprised that I responded in kind. But as long as this doesn't move into an overly personal exchange, I'm content to discuss the issue. But if you unleash that kind of emotionally charged victim-culture "You can never know what it's like to walk in my shoes..." baloney, I will, and have, identified that rhetoric for the bullcrap that it is.


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KrazyXXXDJ said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
Well gee whiz, I don't know what it's like to be a gay man.



That's the only fact I found in your post. And because of this, you cannot state that "homosexuality is a choice" as a fact because it is something you perceive to be true.



That's your opinion, which you're entitled to.

I merely stated my own counter-argument on the subject, one shared by the 60 to 65% of the population (in polls, at the very least) that does not want gay marriage to exist.

You again seem to say that because I don't advocate gay marriage or the gay lifestyle, that my opinion is invalid, and that I don't have the right to say that homosexuality is a choice.
Well too fricking bad.
You are indoctrinated in a belief-system that says homosexuality is inborn, and that you have no control over it.

But you cannot disprove what I, and roughly 60% (at least) of the nation sees, that homosexuality is a choice. And you have no right to tell me I can't say that.

There is no scientific proof to back your allegation that homosexuality is inborn, or to disprove what I've said: that homosexuality is a choice.
As I documented, there are still a number of psychologists who treat homosexuality as a treatable mental disorder, and think it is a mistake and a disservice to homosexuals who need treatment, to NOT treat homosexuality as a treatable disorder, as it was until 1973. (see pages 22 to 24 of this topic).

My "refreshing can of... S T F U !" image was a combination of responding to your telling me I don't have the right to say what I said, and trying to do so with a bit of humor. That's one of several graphics I've found that I've been dying to post, and I kind of squeezed it in.
But my apologies, I think it was perhaps more offensive to you than I intended, and the humor of it was lost in the seriousness of out discussion. Maybe you'd find it funnier outside the context of our discussion.

Some other graphics I've been dying to use, that are irrelevant to our discussion (and hopefully provide some comedy relief in their juvenile tongue-in-cheek-ness) :







http://store3.yimg.com/I/coverprice_1726_24334969

These are not intended as slurs to gays, and some of these I've used in discussions with Whomod and others, in other topics (who are not gay). I don't believe in racial or ethnic slurs, and I wouldn't use them in that context. They're more just playful insults I'd use in, say, the OFF-TOPIC/OFFENSIVE POSTS section, as a playful banter, and not in a vicious context.
Just want to make that clear.

But in the context of this discussion, I fully deserved the giant bird you fired back at me. My apologies, the "can of S T F U" graphic was innappropriately placed in this more serious discussion.




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KrazyXXXDJ said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
We all have to face the heat of what we are. And while you like to piss and moan about what a hard road you have to walk as a gay man, the truth is, your experience is probably not much different than my own.
So get off your frickin' white stallion already.




See, I never belittled your experience. Maybe your beliefs, but not your experience. I'm not on a white stallion. I'm not trying to withhold anything from you. But you're withholding something from me, just because your belief says I shouldn't have it. My experience IS different from yours, because at this point in time, you -- as an American - are granted a right I am NOT - as an American. That doesn't sit well with me. And if me pursuing a right that you have bothers you, that's tough shit. No one is taking anything from you in my pursuit of it.



Y'know, on re-reading my own comment here, I could have phrased what I said a bit more delicately, but again I responded harshly to some harsh statements of yours. I wish I'd said it more gently, but the point is made, either way.

I don't think I'm belittling your experience. Just the way it was expressed in "you can't ever know what it's like..." terms. A context that annoys me, coming from any minority.
And over the course of this very long topic, I've said several times that I'm not un-sympathetic to the difficulties of having gay desires or living the gay lifestyle.
But we all have our crosses to bear, in one form or another. The advantagers and the disadvantages. As I said earlier, white gay men have one of the highest per-capita incomes of any ethnic group. And I have no doubt there are disadvantages in some environments, as well as acceptance in others.
Maybe gays face discrimination in Topeka, Kansas or DeMoines, Iowa.
But they certainly don't in places like L.A., San Francisco, New York City, or in South Florida where I live, where there is an extremely large, visible and active gay culture. And the fact that I and others aren't fans of the gay lifestyle doesn't change their ability to enjoy that lifestyle one bit.



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KrazyXXXDJ said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
And I've consistently made this point repeatedly for 30 pages now, and gays like yourself consistently duck, weave, blunt, bypass, and plug your ears and hum, to avoid acknowledging that allowing gay marriage does affect me and my beliefs. It undermines my religious freedom to practice my Christian faith as it truly exists, and gay marriage would be the next step toward chipping away at that freedom, and working toward its complete annihilation in American culture and law.




It seems you're the one here with his ears plugged.
I'm not the one ducking and weaving here. I asked you HOW, in your day-to-day life, does it affect you? What burden does two men who love each other place upon YOU? I still didn't get an answer.


It undermines your freedom? HOW?




It does NOT undermine your freedom (your RIGHT) to practice your religion as it now exists. That has got to be one of the most useless statements I have heard out of you yet. How many marriages dissolved this last week because of the gay marriages in California? NONE.

*NO ONE is asking that you give up your belief in God.

*NO ONE is asking that you participate in a homosexual marriage.

*NO ONE is asking that you lower your standards of YOUR marriage. How is MY marriage going to diminish YOURS? That makes NO fucking sense.

*NO ONE is trying to snuff out your religion, or freedom to practice that religion. ON THE OTHER HAND - YOUR religion is constantly imposing it's beliefs onto ME, through government. How is that fair? How is that equal? You constantly pit homosexuality into the same categories as pedophilia, drug addiction, thievery, etc., based on your BELIEF. For a religion so full of "thou shall not judge" - full of it!


You keep making the statement that no one is considering YOUR rights, but as far as I can see here, your rights haven't been trampled on at ALL. You keep coming at the issue like someone is trying to run you over, to take something from you - when NO ONE is! I could care less what you think of me, and vice versa, when we are on EQUAL ground.


Some things in American culture NEED chipping-away at.

The majority of people didn't want inter-racial marriages. The majority of people didn't want women to vote. The majority of people didn't want to end slavery. The rights of people should not and must not be held hostage to the whim of the people. The issue of civil rights is an absolute.



Again, I did answer this question. And you simply didn't like the answer:

1) Gay marriage undermines the institution of marriage as it exists in the Judao-Christian Bible.
Gay marriage, as it exists already in Canada, the netherlands and Belgium, as it is proposed to be legislated in the United States, outlaws reading of scripture that says homosexuality is sexual immorality and detestable (GENESIS chapter 18 and 19, Sodom and Gommorah, EXODUS, etc, as quoted earlier). So gay marriage would outlaw teaching of the Bible in its true form. Which tramples on the rights of Christians.

But marriage (Biblically) is a sacred bond between one man/one woman, bound in a ceremony before God.
Marriage is (Biblically) a physical bond, as well as a symbol of purity, loyalty and faith.
The Bible is clear in its perspective of homosexuality, which from Genesis 18-19 forward (Sodom and Gommorah) is described as fornication, abberration, and detestable in the eyes of God. And a precursor of a civilization's destruction and collapse.

Now, in a democratic society, you don't have to believe that. But you also don't have the right to tell me how to practice Christianity, and pass laws that force me and other Christians to ignore what the Bible says about marriage, homoosexuality and other key Biblical/spiritual concepts.
And if the State or Federal government endorses gay marriage, the State takes sides against Judao-Christian faith, and would say that the Bible is wrong, and again, would be a first step toward banning public reading of these and other verses from the Bible.
And again, stomping on my ability to practice my religion.

It would also force me to raise my children in an environment that forces the acceptance of gay marriage, where my children are exposed from birth to other children raised by gay "married" couples, and thus would make it extremely difficult to raise my children in an environment that would not corrupt the Biblical definition of marriage I would be trying to teach my children.

As I said, there is an alternative:
gay civil union, which would allow gays all spousal medical, insurance and legal benefits, WITHOUT corrupting the definition of marriage. Spousal benefits in a secular context, that doesn't re-define marriage, and thus avoids corrupting/undermining the sacred Biblical definition of marriage.

But again, at this point I hesitate in conceding any further recognition for gay rights, because it wouldn't end with civil union, gays would just use this as a stepping stone, toward steamrolling marriage as well, and undermining my religious freedom.

Again, gays already have the rights to live as gays, work as gays, and receive benefits as gays, without proposed gay marriage legislation that would deprive Christians of their right to peacefully practice their religion without harassment.




2) Gay marriage is not the end result, it is the FIRST STEP toward eroding and wiping out Christian freedom of religion
As I said, if gays push through all the changes they want, they will eradicate the ability to even quote the Bible regarding homosexuality and other related issues in a public forum.
They would label public speaking of these verses as a "hate crime".

Which is part of a larger battle the A.C.L.U. and other secularist groups are pushing, to wipe every last vestige of Judao-Christian biblical concepts from our culture and government.

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KrazyXXXDJ said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
( And whether you like it or not, religious freedom is the foundation on which American government was formed, and was intended to preserve. Specifically, the freedom to practice Christianity in its Biblical form, not in the form imposed on Europe by the Anglican and Catholic churches. )




Freedom of religion also includes freedom FROM religion. However, I am denied my right because of an imposing Christian belief - How's that for ducking and dodging?



To drive every last vestige of Bible reference from a government that was founded on Christian principles (as is being attempted by the A.C.L.U., gays and other secularists) would be a travesty that defies what founded our democracy in the first place.

Yes, you have the right to freedom FROM religion. That is consistent with the Biblical concept of free will, where one has the right to make an informed choice, whether or not to choose Christian faith.

But stacking the deck and driving every last reference to the Bible and biblical concepts from government and public thought is NOT what the signers of the Constitution and Declaration had in mind.


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KrazyXXXDJ said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
As I just said in my previous post, legalizing gay marriage would not be the end of the gay rights issue, it's just the next step toward outlawing the practice of Christianity, as you and liberal schmucks like you slowly eradicate MY rights.




Aha! Finally, we're getting to the bottom of things. Fear.
We're not out to get your religion, believe it or not. You are allowed to practice any belief you want - as long as it does not impose on others!

No one is trying to snuff out Christianity or rid you of any right. We don't want you to remove Christianity from your life or Jesus from your heart. We just want you to pick it up and put it back into your own home. Stop putting it in everyone's faces as the ONLY truth. If I wanted or chose to worship some cow Goddess - THAT IS MY RIGHT AS AN AMERICAN. As long as I didn't do it in your house, it doesn't INFRINGE on any right you have. If Jesus lives in your yard - keep him there, and out of mine. THAT IS MY RIGHT AS AN AMERICAN.



Again, my quoted comments could have made the same point more gently, but I was responding to some pretty harsh rhetoric of yours.

It is not "Fear", it's reality, based on what gay activists have said is their ultimate goal.
Again, if all gays want is equal spousal rights, civil union would achieve that.
But in point of fact, the gay activist goal is to re-define the millenia-old concept of marriage itself, and undermine the literal and symbolic concepts that expand from marriage as defined in the Bible.

Whether or not you as one gay man agree with that gay agenda, THAT is where the gay activist agenda is going.

The objective of gay pressure on this issue is to maliciously undermine the Christian concept of marriage.
And urinate on the whole concept of Christian faith.

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KrazyXXXDJ said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
All you care about is your rights. You guys give idealistic lip-service to the rights of all people, but you don't give a damn about my rights being trampled on, so long as you get to do what you want.



Nothing could be further from the truth. If the roles were reversed and it were CHRISTIANS who weren't allowed to marry, us liberals would have a lot to say about THAT, too. I would have a problem if you and I were born of the same earth yet you were held in lower regard because you didn't think the same as I.

Us liberal schmucks, we're less about the snuffing these days and more into fairness for EVERYONE. This here ain't Puritan Americana anymore, pahdna.



That is a selective omission of the facts. Christian faith, while the dominant religion of the U.S., is undermined every day, and no one but Christian advocacy groups pushes to legally preserve the religious freedoms our founding fathers intended (as is abundantly evident in their writings), that are being deliberately eroded by secularists.

Secularists are pushing to wipe away any Biblical reference from public institutions, and insure that, through liberal bias, a new generation is only subjected to a secularist perspective, insuring that a new generation is overwhelmingly secularist, and that Christianity is further marginalized through further deprivation of public representation in our culture.

And again, we see the fruit of that secularization:
Rampant teenage pregnancy, rampant drug use, group sex, kids shooting kids, kids shooting their parents, kids shooting teachers, gang violence, a huge spike in violent teenage crime, and on and on.

I think we were better off with the Ten Commandments and other Biblical concepts, and prayer, in our schools.


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KrazyXXXDJ said:

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Dave the Wonder Boy said:

But the point of gay/liberal rights snuffing out conservative traditions and values, and raising the level of decadence, permissiveness and chaos in our culture has been abundantly been made here, by myself and others.



No harmful offense meant, Dave, because I don't know you. But the world IS changing, whether YOU like it or not.

If your belief helps you sleep better at night, then I am all the more for it. I could go into depth about how *I* believe in God, as well - the CHRISTIAN God - but how I see the Bible as flawed as it was written by man - afraid of what they did not understand- and men are known for power - and corruption - and changing things to their liking. For all the educated world knows, Jesus was just another Koresh. A delusional who had a strong power of persuasion. I don't believe that. But I do not believe that God put homosexuals on this earth to live unhappily, either.



I understand your suspicion about the origins of the Bible, which is ostensibly written by men.

I'd suggest the book He Walked Among Us: Evidence For the Historical Jesus, by Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson, for some insight on that.
It looks at not only the Bible, but also extra-biblical evidence, asking not just what his followers said, but also what did his enemies say, including the Rabbi writings of his time, and Roman historians of the time, as well as early writings of the Christian church leaders as Christianity spread after the death and resurrection of Christ.

The new testament says "all scripture is God-breathed", meaning that despite it being written by men, these writings are inspired directly by God.
And the consistent message from the many writers of the Bible's books over a 1500-year period (beginning with Moses in 1400 B.C., and concluding with the books and letters of the New Testament around 100 A.D.), with writers who ranged from uneducated nomadic shepherds to kings and scholars and prophets, rabbis, fishermen and (Luke) a physician, through many eras and many kings and empires and conquest.
And yet through all these vastly different political periods and writers, the Bible has a remarkably consistent theme of mercy and redemption, and of a God who loves his creations, and despite their flaws, works for their greater good and salvation.

There are many elements in the Bible, from its thematic consistency and structure, to fulfillment of prophecy, prophecy that continues to be fulfilled even into the modern era, that indicate a supernatural hand beyond the ability of the men who wrote the Bible's 66 books.