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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
Not to single out your use of that argument, but just in general, every time I see it used. I find it a very unproductive and alienating stance.

What arrogance, to make a statement like that (again, the statement in general, not you personally).

In the history of the world, EVERY racial group has been oppressed, conquered or enslaved by another group.
So I wish we could dispense forever with that "You'll never know what it's like ..." crap.




It is only a teaspoon of the same arrogance that those of us not in the Christian majority must put up with EVERY day. Not just homosexuals - this includes those of different religion and immigrant origin. We are constantly having Christian belief shoved in our face, as obviously the ONLY and the RIGHT way, when it is NOT, and when that is not what this country is about.


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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
You again seem to say that because I don't advocate gay marriage or the gay lifestyle, that my opinion is invalid, and that I don't have the right to say that homosexuality is a choice.
Well too fricking bad.





This was my original problem with your post, and I still back what I said.

You have the right to say and believe whatever you want, but you don't have the right to toss it around as factual information when it is NOT. What is fact is that the nature of homosexuality is still unknown. Your majority sticks to the answer of choice because it is safe and makes homosexuality easy to dismiss, but the fact is that your majority has no answer based on fact or hard evidence.

This is the same majority that believes in a God that might not even exist - that bases so much in faith, it has forgotten what fact and hard evidence is. Since the majority believes it, it MUST be true? ANNKH.



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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
You are indoctrinated in a belief-system that says homosexuality is inborn, and that you have no control over it.

But you cannot disprove what I, and roughly 60% of the nation sees, that homosexuality is a choice. And you have no right to tell me I can't say that.




When you say it like THAT - when homosexuality as a choice is what 60% (only a LITTLE over half) of what the nation SEES, that is a completely different statement than saying homosexuality as a choice is what the nation KNOWS. That is the point I'm arguing.


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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
There is no scientific proof to back your allegation that homosexuality is inborn, or to disprove what I've said: that homosexuality is a choice.




But, oh yes, there is just as much scientific proof that favors genetics as there is that favors choice. No, at this point, I can not prove my allegation, but neither can you prove yours. Because, like I said, the answer is unknown. There is no answer that is a fact.

We can sit here and exchange links all day, if you wish.




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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
But in the context of this discussion, I fully deserved the giant bird you fired back at me. My apologies, the "can of S T F U" graphic was innappropriately placed in this more serious discussion.



And my apologies, as well, for the bird. Maybe I *am* oversensative sometimes on the issue - a result of living in the crosshair of the majority (smack-dead in the Biblebelt).






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Dave the Wonder Boy said:

Again, I did answer this question. And you simply didn't like the answer:

1) Gay marriage undermines the institution of marriage as it exists in the Judao-Christian Bible. Marriage is a sacred bond between one man/one woman, bound in a ceremony before God.
Marriage is (Biblically) a physical bond, as well as a symbol of purity, loyalty and faith. The Bible is also clear in its perspective of homosexuality, which from Genesis 18-19 forward (Sodom and Gommorah) is described as fornication, abberration, and detestable in the eyes of God. And a precursor of a civilization's destruction and collapse.

Now, in a democratic society, you don't have to believe that. But you also don't have the right to tell me how to practice Christianity, and pass laws that force me and other Christians to ignore what the Bible says about marriage, homoosexuality and other key Biblical/spiritual concepts.
And if the State or Federal government endorses gay marriage, the State takes sides against Judao-Christian faith, and would say that the Bible is wrong, and again, would be a first step toward banning public reading of these and other verses from the Bible.
And again, stomping on my ability to practice my religion.





Ok....I can see that. But that's a big stretch to "infringing on your rights" and delves into a LOT of the separation of church and state. I'm almost suspicious that may be an excuse that beats around the real issue, but I'll trust your statement and go with it anyway.

So what it boils down to here, is a matter of inconvenience, and who's is worse.

At this point, I can see where you are coming from. However, the options must be weighed - denying a minority what they perceive to be a right as an American, or asking the majority to adjust to a right that they don't see as a right in the first place because they are Christian.

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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
As I said, there is an alternative: gay civil union, which would allow gays all spousal medical, insurance and legal benefits, WITHOUT corrupting the definition of marriage. Spousal benefits in a secular context, that doesn't re-define marriage, and thus avoids corrupting/undermining the sacred Biblical definition of marriage.



And you know what, I'll even give an inch here. Because to many of us, that is what this is about. Not all of us are activists who want to change your definition of marriage because of the bonds of love- I personally don't want your word (marriage). I want equal recognition in government - on paper and in the books- denying me nothing that every other man has. Any and all rights, with the liberties and benefits therein.


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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
But again, at this point I hesitate in conceding any further recognition for gay rights, because it wouldn't end with civil union, gays would just use this as a stepping stone, toward steamrolling marriage as well, and undermining my religious freedom.

2) Gay marriage is not the end result, it is the FIRST STEP toward eroding and wiping out Christian freedom of religion
As I said, if gays push through all the changes they want, they will eradicate the ability to even quote the Bible regarding homosexuality and other related issues in a public forum.
They would label public speaking of these verses as a "hate crime".

Which is part of a larger battle the A.C.L.U. and other secularist groups are pushing, to wipe every last vestige of Judao-Christian biblical concepts from out culture and government.




As I doubt it would ever go that far, it's possible. We now live in a country where everyone and all are welcomed. You can blame it on liberals of the past, and that much is true. Mistakes of the past, perhaps. I nor this generation of homosexuals opened the door to being PC.
But you cannot create a government for all men, turn around and make exceptions for some, and then withhold those exceptions from others. That kind of government will fail. So, they must, in some way or the other, adjust. If it means going back and changing the basic foundation that creates a more fair government for everyone, then sorry, I'm for it, but I also do not view homosexuals in the same light you do. The way I see it: Different is NOT Equal. The CONSTITUTION as it now reads, says that everyone is to be treated equal. You cannot amend the Constitution to contradict itself.



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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
To drive every last vestige of Bible reference from a government that was founded on Christian principles (as is being attempted by the A.C.L.U., gays and other secularists) would be a travesty that defies what founded our democracy in the first place.

Yes, you have the right to freedom FROM religion. That is consistent with the Biblical concept of free will, where one has the right to make an informed choice, whether or not to choose Christian faith.

But stacking the deck and drivin every last reference to the Bible and biblical concepts from government and public thought is NOT what the signers of the Constitution and Declaration had in mind.




As I said above, if adjusting to serve ALL the people fairly involves removing antiquated principles, and further marginalizing Christiany in governemnt, then it is possible that it cannot be avoided if it causes discomfort to the minority. The world is changing - HAS changed - continues to change - since the days the Constitution was drafted. The original Constitution would not work in today's society.


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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
The goal of gay pressure on this issue is to maliciously undermine the Christian concept of marriage.
And urinate on the whole concept of Christian faith.




That's how you see it. Another angle on it is pursuing the same freedoms every man and woman is granted in this country - not an attack on Christianity itself, but an attack on the government to adjust and serve the minority as well. It just so happens that Christianity is a major factor in this, and unwilling to yield in favor to fairness to everyone. You do not have to be Christian to know what is right or wrong, or to observe discrimination.



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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
I think we were better off the Ten Commandments and other Biblical concepts, and prayer, in our schools.





I have no problem with the Ten Commandments, as they personally do not call me out in front of God. Those commandments do not place me in the same category as drug addicts and thieves.

In fact, I think they are good mold - basic, moral code to live by. Right and wrong, plain as night and day. Prayer is a different issue - because again, not everyone that attends school is Christian. You have to draw the line at imposing on the minority somewhere. This is stepping on the freedom of religion of those who are not Christian.




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Dave the Wonder Boy said:

The new testament says "all scripture is God-breathed", meaning that despite it being written by men, these writings are inspired directly by God.




But that's another point of mine. Anyone with a majority of followers can say they received word from a higher power, and depending on the trust level, people will believe it.

Looking at that angle, the whole principle of Christian faith is the possible result of a mere powerful cult, and nothing more.

I do not believe that, but it is possible. And it is also possible that someone a little more homophobic than most wrote his whims into the Bible. Being that I believe that homosexuality is inborn, I do not believe that God placed homosexuals on this Earth to live unhappily.