(Because it was too long for one post, part 2 : )

quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


I don't like it when anybody's "side" gets trashed. But a lot of your posts seem to be nothing more than rants based on biases and not on facts. Whomod, at least, tends to back up his comments with proof. Granted that proof is selective, but I take a researched comment more seriously than someone who apprears to be just mouthing off. Call it shallow, but that's how it works.
Again, your self-proclaimed objectivity.
As I said, I quote a lot of sources, for which I'm not given credit for.

Most of Whomod's "proof" is recycled rhetoric from vitriolically anti-Bush liberal websites, and propaganda images, and reporting from that oh-so-objective and fair-to-Republicans publication, The Los Angeles Times. I find the L.A. Times quite unashamedly biased.

Although I value Whomod's opinion, precisely because it comes from a perspective very different from my own. Many of the sources he lists are sources of some weight, and many are not. Reading Whomod's links allows me to step outside my own perspective.

But you cite Whomod's stuff as objective "sources"?
Liberal perspective, perhaps, but hardly "objective" sources, or "proof".

And meanwhile you describe my comments as "rants and biases" and Whomod's as "proof". Talk about spinning things to your own point of view. You appear conciliatory, but then backhand me in the same sentence. I seriously question your "objectivity".

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

I'm not saying that ALL Democrats/liberals use these tactics, but it is a frequent and consistent tactic used by a large percentage of liberals, I'd say the majority of liberals, constantly portraying Conservatives as narrow-minded, stupid, repressors, Nazis, Draconian thugs, out-of-touch, bluebloods, incompetents promoted because of wealthy privelege (despite the fact that their Democrat opponents, including Al Gore, are wealthy and priveleged also), etc.
This biased and negative portrayal of Republicans has pretty much been the standard liberal press/Democrat portrayal of every Republican Presidential candidate since 1984, and pretty much the same biased portrayal in Senate and Congress elections I've observed over the last 20 years.
I'd say this is not an isolated campaign tactic of Democrats and the liberal press, but a standard way of practicing liberal politics.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:



Based on this post and several other debates you and I have had, you do come off like you're slamming every liberal under the sun at times. If you don't put a disqualifier, how am I supposed to know whether or not you're referring to everybody in a certain group? Perhaps in the future, you might want to be careful about that so that you don't keep having this debate.
Perhaps if liberals posting here were more selective in their words, and did not use sweeping generalizations of conservatives/Republicans so consistently and insultingly, they would not find so much --or any-- backlash from myself and other Republicans.

You try to say "both sides should stop".

But it's your side, the liberal side, THAT IS INITIATING these insulting sweeping generalizations. I'm just RESPONDING to them.
And then in your objectivity, I'm characterized as "mouthing off" for even responding to them. Very objective.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

I might add that liberal removal of prayer from schools, liberal attempts to remove "under God" from the pledge, Liberal attempts to bar from nomination any true conservative from the higher courts (Robert Bork, Clarence Thomas, the recent hispanic judge, whose name escapes me at this writing), liberal attempts to change the definition of marriage to something other than one man/one woman, as it has been for 6000 years, trying to change Christian tradition, instead of just creating their OWN tradition, liberal attempts to push religion out of all public institutions, which can only promote secularism over that of our unquestionably Judao/Christian rooted governmnent, that is unquestionably inspired by the Bible, with phrases and ideas directly from the Bible, and a belief that Christianity (according to the writings of the founding fathers, was an ESSENTAL part of a healthy democracy, the absence of Christianity being what caused every previous attempt at Democracy in human history to fail). Plus relentless media portrayals in news and entertainment, that negatively portray conservatives and Christians as hypocritical, narrowminded and ignorant, and promote hostility toward these groups.
And on and on.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


Didn't we discuss this on the last thread?
Apparently not enough.

You glossed over my crucial point, of how liberals try to stomp all over the rights of conservatives.

And then constantly portray conservatives, (who just don't want the traditions they grew up with taken away) as the goose-stepping Nazis and defilers of the Constitution.
The conservative perspective, of liberals as the defilers of a nation FOUNDED on Christian principles, is not even given token mention.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

ALL of these things, promoted by liberals and the liberal press, can be seen as a narrowminded repression of the beliefs and practices of moderates and conservatives in this country, and a repressive and Draconian HIJACKING of what our democracy was intended to be.

Repression, limiting of freedoms, bastardization of the Constitution itself, is just fine, it seems, as long as it is CONSERVATIVE ideas, beliefs, public expression and lifestyle that are being repressed.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


It seems to go both ways. Both sides seem to have a tendency to want the other side's ideals to be repressed, seeing it as a threat to their own.


While I might phrase that differently, I won't disagree with that sentence. I do feel liberals are more deceptive, venomous and malicious in their rhetoric than their conservative opposition.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.

EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.

I get really tired of liberal rhetoric on these boards that relentlessly bashes conservatives, and consistently bypasses these facts.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


So do I. I get tired of any bashing whatsoever. That's exactly what the point of the Partisnaship thread was. Because I'm sick of liberals and conservatives constantly demonizing each other. And it bothers me that nobody walked away from that without thinking about the message I was trying to get through.


I'm not demonizing liberals and Democrats. I've been very clear that I think Democrats have good ideas, and that all ideas should be considered.

I think it becomes very difficult for myself and other conservatives to trust Democrats/liberals, when they thoroughly slander and trash what I believe in, doing so with the most insulting, venomous and contemptuous of rhetoric.
(see Whomod's characterization of conservatism as a psychological illness above. A characterization I've heard multiple times from the liberal side.
Or charicature cartoons and photomanipulations, of Bush officials in Nazi uniforms and so forth, on and on. I don't see that from the Republican side. )

quote:
What constitutes "freedom" or "repression" for conservatives and liberals, really depends on which side best represents your views.
As a conservative, I find the liberal advances repressive on MY beliefs.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


And as a moderate, I find the tug of war between conservatives and liberals leaves this country locked in a stalemate where nothing gets done because nobody can see past their own ideals.
I dislike the notion of impartially spreading the blame across both sides.

This topic is the perfect example. Whomod posted something so outrageous, that I just HAD to respond. And as I said, I've seen this liberal/Democrat vitriol posted more than once. It's highly inflammatory and insulting. And then I'M out of line for responding to this ?!? Get real !

I think the vitriol begins an ends on the liberal side. And I believe this bitter, iconoclastic, urination on the beliefs of others is what makes them liberals.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

And I am deeply annoyed by a news media that favors liberals, and relentlessly and biasedly portrays Conservatives as the repressors. It cuts both ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


As am I. I study journalism, and journalists are supposed to be objective and not take sides. Although I have to say, there are times when the media portrays liberals as total woo-woos and the conservatives as the greatest thing to ever happen to this country.
It's been many years since I've seen THAT, if EVER.

Even the Afghan invasion in late 2001 was portrayed as the U.S. brutally and arrogantly invading an impoverished third world nation, conspiracy theories that it wasn't about U.S. self-preservation and eliminating al Qaida camps training tens of thousands of terrorists.
And how much more anti-Republican and liberally biased, the coverage of Iraq in 2003, before, during, and post-war?

Somewhere along the line, journalists seemed to realize that they could slant the news and get away with it. And no one would would call them on it, or at least not enough for them to stop and strive for more objectivity.
In the 60's and 70's, there was more of an attempt to deliver "just the facts", and to separate the commentary from the news.
That line has now completely blurred.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

If you went through my posts over the last two years on these boards, you'd see my firm rhetoric against liberals began here at EXACTLY the point all the anti-conservative/anti-Republican rhetoric began here.
I'd say the Republican-bashing began in earnest about 9 or 10 months ago.
quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy:

I might add that you've once again proven, as a liberal, your attempt to discredit my conservative view, once again using slanderous tactics to block-label my views into a dismissive category.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


Now you're stereotyping. My challenge to your views came from sensing a bias, and I was just trying to show you another way of thinking. The insult came from, as I stated before, a bad week and a growing annoyance with you snubbing my comments in previous encounters.
I'm not stereotyping. That's your subjective opinion -vs- my subjective opinion. You haven't got superior insight, you've only lobbied for the liberal perspective (from my viewpoint).

You seem to feel that your opinion is superior to mine.

I was turned off, as I said, by your 100% liberal counter-argument to the arguments I raised in the "Partisanship" topic.
http://www.robkamphausen.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=27&t=000971

I posted at length, and I didn't feel your "Devil's Advocate" point of view was truly in the spirit of objectivity, but simply to de-bunk my posted opinion. And my opinion posted was already a tiny piece of equal time for yet another topic that had become a liberal bash-fest toward conservativism. But it wasn't allowed to stand unchallenged.

I think the sheer volume of liberal opinion allows quite a number of liberal views and allegations to go unchallenged here.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

My rhetoric is defensive, against an onslaught of anti-conservative liberal propaganda posted here. Which is painfully obvious to anyone here who is not... a liberal !
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


The way you come off, you sound like someone who refuses to listen to any other viewpoint than your own, and that's what turns me off. [/QUORE]

That is, once again, your partisan spin of it, your hiding behind an illusion of impartial objectivity, even while you'rejust as subjectively immersed in the discussion as I am.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darknight613:

On a message board, it's tough to tell what one is really thinking based on a few paragraphs. Defensive or not, there's something about a person who refuses to listen to the other side that really bothers me, no matter what side or what issue we're talking about.
That is more spin. Is it that I "refuse to listen"?

Or is it that I DO listen, and remain unconvinced by the counter-argument from the liberal side, particularly when that liberal perspective is rife with personal insults and veiled partisan comments, that hide behind a false face of impartial "objectivity", even as they make a partisan argument against my stated views.

Do you truly believe that you can participate in the debate here, and yet remain objectively above the rest of us in the discussion?

For you to declare yourself "objective" over me or others in the discussion, is condescending and insulting, whether or not you intend it to be.

And YOU "refuse to listen" to what I'm saying. And stereotype/dismissively categorize me, to rationalize your viewpoint.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

There are many liberals that I can talk to (in sharp contrast to many of the Democrats and liberals who post on these boards, who really feel a burning need to trash Republicans).

As I've said repeatedly, there are many ideas regarding health care reform, housing, affordable education, labor law, tax reform and so forth, even defense, from Democrats in Washington that I think at least offer a good brainstorm of ideas, if not ideas on many issues that are superior to what Republicans propose.
While my sensibilities lean toward the Republican perspective, I listen to both sides.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


If you'll forgive me for saying so, you don't always give that impression.
If you'll forgive me for responding, that is your subjective opinion.

If I weren't constantly responding to false allegations against my conservative beliefs raised by conservative-bashing liberals here, I might have more ability to explore where I agree with Democrats.

quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

In a democracy, it should be the sharing of ALL ideas, and selecting the best ideas from them, to have the best government.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


Agreed.
quote:
originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

For close to 20 years, Democrats have been unfairly slanting the news and demonizing Republicans, and certainly doing so here on these boards.
And then you have the audacity to call ME partisan for firing back?

Unlike yourself, I've just answered the allegations, instead of dismissively slandering your viewpoint.
quote:
originally posted by Darknight613:

Now I've answered yours.

And where were you when I politely responded to your post on the Partisanship thread?
You keep dragging up this allegation. I already answered it.

I wasn't happy with your response, I felt I'd already explained my position, you'd already demonstrated your partisanship, and I didn't feel like going another three rounds covering the same ground, of "you said this" and "no, no, you said this...".

Your opinion was clear, even if it was veiled in an anonymous "Devil's Advocate". I found your view one-sided, and I wasn't convinced that continuing the discussion would go anywhere. I feel the same way here. That you're just interested in proving me wrong or rendering me dismissable somehow.

If that's not your goal, then what is it you want from my responses?

You strongly argue the liberal mindset, but try to paint yourself as "objective" and impartial.
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


It took an insult in a brief moment of anger to get your attention. I can't help wondering if you would have even responded to my earlier post in this thread if not for those harsh words. I didn't dismiss and slander your viewpoint on the other thread. I made my response to yours, and you apparently snubbed it. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my intentions, but it's not fair to blame me for that.
Boy, you really won't let go of it, will you?

I've answered repeatedly. On several topics you've come into the discussion and jumped in my face, and not knowing you either, I don't know the reason for it. The first I recall was the Saddam's sons believed dead" topic:
http://www.robkamphausen.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=27&t=000844

And again, while more polite, what you call "Devil's Advocate", I call liberally dismissing every point I raised, with no apparent objectivity or balance to the valid conservative viewpoint I voiced in the "Partisan" topic.
"Partisanship":
http://www.robkamphausen.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=27&t=000971

It's not "snubbing" on my part, as you allege over and over, it's simply seeing that your mind was made up, and not wanting to continue to argue my personal and heartfelt perspective against an anonymous "Devil's Advocate". I found that perspective a bit too ambiguous to pursue.

quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:


But again, my apologies for the "lack of respect" comment. It's not fair for me to take out my problems on you or anyone else.

Hopefully next time, we'll be able to keep it civil.
You know, I want to fully accept your apology, but then conversely to a sincere apology, I find it mixed in with a whole bunch of other nasty things you said, about my "just mouthing off", not being worthy of response, lacking objectivity, being blindly conservative and so forth.

What am I to make of it when you apologize and insult me in the same breath ?