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Stupid Doog said:
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Wonder Boy said:

If you go beyond politely responding to the issue discussed, make angry and personal remarks that are completely unnecessary and divert from the issue at hand, prepare to be called the abrasive jerk you've proven yourself to be.




Personal remarks? Abrasive jerk? I must have missed my post where I called you a complete moron because I don't remember making angry personal remarks, just scripture and reasoning.



"Just scripture and reasoning" ?!?
A bit more than that, S. Doog.
Quite a bit more.


Here's your opening salvo:

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Stupid Doog said:
I'm still waiting for the scripture that Jesus talks about taking up arms to defend your nation.

I know you're not going to find it because it's not there, but I'm waiting for you to admit it.



And here's my response, with your 2nd salvo:


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Stupid Doog said:
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Wonder Boy said:

Y'know, it really bugs me that you addressed me in such a confrontational way.

And even if I am wrong (although I don't think I am), I think it's clear that I'm talking here from my best memory of scripture as I recall it.
I fail to understand your eagerness to see me proven wrong, and attempt to rub it in may face.



Boo hoo.

If you're going to make any claim of biblical pretext, be prepared to back it up. If you just quote from memory without rechecking scripture and expect us to just go along with it be prepared to get hammered.




That is considerably more than respectful dissent, and a respectful counter-argument.

And as I said, I did back up my position with scripture, you just chose to to ignore it, and paint me as unable to back up my position.

I initially couldn't recall the specific verse, and I still was unable to find the specific verse I had in mind. But I offered plenty of scripture that supports my position that the New Testament does not condemn military action, and does allow submission to state authority. ( Specifically ROMANS 13: v 1-7)

    Romans 13
    Submission to the Authorities

    1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
    2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

    3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
    4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

    5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
    6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
    7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.








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Stupid Doog said:

You, however, are ready to yell persecution when anybody dares challenges your fragile belief system.



I simply said I don't like being accused of things and being talked to by you like I'm an idiot, simply because you disagreee with me.

Whether you like it or not, there is a counter-argument, scripturally, for military service of Christians, that I'm sure a fair percentage of the Christian community would agree with me.
As the articles I posted make clear, it is not just my opinion. These are the articulated views of many Christians.

If you disagree with that and you would choose conscientious objector status to maintain the integrity of your scripture-based beliefs, I respect that.

My interpretation of scripture is different from yours.


Perhaps you see my perspective as blasphemous, and that possibly explains the abrasiveness of your first two posts.

But again, I backed up my position with scripture, both in my own words, and with articles on the subject by others.







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Stupid Doog said:

Yes, I challenged you because you did not back up your reasoning with scripture.



Again, I did back my views scripturally, chapter and verse.

You simply choose to reject the logic of a scripture-based argument on the issue counter to your own.
I've listened to your view, and it has made me reflect on my existing interpretation.

I might eventually agree with you, as I've similarly turned 180-degrees from accepting abortion to condemning it.



But the fact remains, there is a scripturally-based counter-argument (which I voiced) that many Christians who have struggled with the issue see as the correct interpretation.

Whether or not you agree with it.







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Stupid Doog said:

Just because you say it's there doesn't mean I have to blindly believe you.



Fair enough.

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Stupid Doog said:
People like you are the reason there are so many people in the dark on things because you flip out when people demand a rational explanation.



I realize you feel strongly about the issue, as do I.

But that's abrasive, overly personal, and not a rational discussion of the issue.







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Stupid Doog said:
And notice, I didn't have to go to so called "biblical scholars" to back up my belief. I went straight to scripture.




I also directly quoted scripture, chapter and verse.

In addition to quoting scripture and cross-referencing verses that discuss previous wars, God's commanding the Jews to war in the Old Testament, and the favorable portrayal of soldiers in the New Testament (particularly the centurion in Matthew 8), yes, I did post some articles as well.

    Matthew, chapter 8 :
    The Faith of the Centurion

    5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
    6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."
    7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

    8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
    9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

    10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
    11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
    12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.


Please note that Jesus did NOT say to the centurion: Your work as a soldier opposes God's will. To serve me, you must abandon your work as centurion and follow me.

No.

Jesus said:
"I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. "
and
"Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour

Indicating that he was faithful to Jesus already in his work as a soldier, and was not condemned by Jesus for it.




If I didn't post articles to show others hold the same view of scripture not being in conflict with military service, you'd be saying: "well, that's just your opinion."
So I demonstrated that it's not just my opinion.



But it's Catch-22, you condemn me instead for posting articles of scripture by others that explore the issue of New Testament scripture and military service.



Again, your point that vengeance is God's alone, and that Jesus' commandment going forward is that man is, from Jesus' birth forward, to leave war and vengeance to God and his angels, is not a point that's lost on me, and it's compelled me to reflect on the issue.

I see your view as also an interpretation at this point, but it's potentially just as valid as my own interpretation.







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Stupid Doog said:


Talk about not noticing the rafter in your eye...



Again, I understand you feel strongly about the issue, as do I.

That is not a logical argument, just an angry cheap-shot.







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Stupid Doog said:

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Wonder Boy said to Klinton:

Your opinions, on the other hand, are derived solely from your uninformed opinions, your gay lifestyle, and your pathetic attempts to change Biblical scripture that clearly condemns homosexuality, so as to rationalize your gay lifestyle is not in contradiction with the Bible, and smear anyone who points out the Biblical standard which clearly has the most strenuous condemnation of homosexuality, an act grouped with adultery, murder, and blasphemy.

And with that, I'd rather not respond to your posts to this topic anymore.

You launched an attack on me, and I defended myself. I'd rather not waste my time continuing to respond to your poisonous rhetoric.



...maybe you were talking about yourself in the first quote? Klinton being homosexual has nothing to do with this debate. It's exactly what I was saying above.




Klinton being homosexual is relevant. It underscores his personal biases that warp his interpretation of Biblical scripture, particularly on the subject of homosexuality and sodomy.
As his angry misrepresentation of me manifests. And again, he fired the first inflammatory shot, not me.

How conveniently you removed those remarks from their full context.

Up to that point in the topic I had exchanged multiple posts, respectfully discussing the issue with Klinton, not voicing the slightest anger or hostility, just discussing the issue.

Then Klinton posted the following remarks I quoted and responded to:


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Wonder Boy said:

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Wonder Boy said:

The Bible teaches not to look for war, to use peaceful means whenever possible, but to defend your nation (particularly in the Old Testament, to defend Israel )

If the Bible did not allow for military service, then Israel would never have become a nation, in Biblical times or presently.






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Klinton said:

I agree.

But a lot of things changed between the Old Testament and the new. There were things that were no longer advocated, or in fact discouraged. This was one of them.






I disagree.

The core teaching of the New Testament --of Christ-- is free will.
The freedom to choose or reject Christianity, as one observes its evidence, history and values.

The only thing the New Testament (i.e., Jesus) rejects is empty ritual that bypasses true faith. He rejects empty ceremony that projects the appearance of faith in God, but is not true faith.

Jesus doesn't discourage Jewish rituals, he only says that it is possible to have faith, and not practice those Old Testament traditions and rituals.
But God looks favorably on those who practice those rituals as a manifestation of true faith. And not just the appearance of faith.

You speak presumptuously and innacurately, with a lack of knowledge of Biblical scripture and customs.



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Klinton said:

This isn't a 'game'...Just a discussion. There are many things that can be read out of the Bible, and debated. But Jesus insitence on peace is not open to debate...It's undeniable.



No, it's not.

Jesus taught peace and forgiveness, but not the way you imply, that would castrate Christians of the ability to have a political opinion, or to politically preserve their lifestyle from changes in the law that intrude on the free practice of their religion, and thus ability to serve God.
Or even to serve in the military, and defend their nation.

To say Jesus insists on peace in all circumstances is your uninformed and presumptuous opinion.


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Klinton said:


The fact that you are so indoctrinated by church teachings to think otherwise is unsettling.



That is a really uncivil and sleazy attempt of yours to smear me, and it assumes a lot.

My Biblical opinion comes from reading the Bible, and various scholarly writings that give added understanding to the historic and symbolic context of the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic my NIV and King James (both English language) translations are derived from.

Your opinions, on the other hand, are derived solely from your uninformed opinions, your gay lifestyle, and your pathetic attempts to change Biblical scripture that clearly condemns homosexuality, so as to rationalize your gay lifestyle is not in contradiction with the Bible, and smear anyone who points out the Biblical standard which clearly has the most strenuous condemnation of homosexuality, an act grouped with adultery, murder, and blasphemy.

And with that, I'd rather not respond to your posts to this topic anymore.

You launched an attack on me, and I defended myself. I'd rather not waste my time continuing to respond to your poisonous rhetoric.



That is the full context of my mentioning Klinton's homosexuality.

I was very respectful in my posts up to that point.

I guess I'm just supposed to say nothing when he, out of the blue, says to me "The fact that you are so indoctrinated by church teachings to think otherwise is unsettling.".

Oh, yes ! That's SO representative of my discussion of scripture in this topic up to that point.

I should just let that pass unchallenged, right ?

In spite of that, I made a great effort to otherwise respectfully answer all the legitimate issues he raised, aside from my necessary response to such a pointlessly abrasive smear of a remark on his part.

Why is it you guys feel like you can be such unbeleivable cocksucking bastards in the way you smear those you disagree with, and then when I respond, as any human being would to such inflammatory remarks, you --amazingly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-- can in your minds see ME as the one who is being uncivil.

Look at what you posted. The level of venom.
Look at what I posted. A measured, less over the top response.








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Stupid Doog said:
When anyone challenges you you flip out and go for the low blow thinking we'll just give in.

Now I'm done dealing with you. Get a life and lets get this thread back to what it was originally intended to be a discussion for: Islam.



See above.

Abrasive jerk.