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Pariah said:
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It becomes more and more clear to me that the only reason your country has no problem going there and perpetuating the violence is because you, too, have been raised to respond violently.



Which means you’re making an unfounded assumption about my history. This is because you boil down America to a stereotype of violence based on gun ownership and [jingoism/blind patriotism]. What you refuse to take into account is that America is country that’s in an ideological conflict with itself. My mother and father for example are both on opposite extremes of the political spectrum. Neither of them however, gave much of a crap about how I turned out after I turned 16. In which case, I was raised in a very nebulous atmosphere that didn’t involve a lot of extremes until I actually bothered to discover them for myself. So no points for you.



Don't take things so literally. I'm not talking about your parents saying "Hey Parys, violence is good!", I'm talking about your culture accepting it as a valid first option and not a last resort.

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They don’t have these kind of options in the Middle East. It’s undeniably an oppressive culture, which doesn’t allow any form of dissent away from the norm. It doesn’t make sense to compare my upbringing to theirs except for the sake of being facetious—As per your usual mannerisms in an argument.



Believe it or not, they don't have "terrorist school" in the Middle East. If they're predisposed to violence then it's indirectly; in the same way that I'm suggesting you are.

It says a lot that you're not offended because I'm saying you're inferior to them, but for saying that you're equal. To you that's unthinkable. Another cultural trait, I think.

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If the recordings they left were identical to that of Reb and Vodka’s, then that means they were victims of the clique. If the recordings were about Allah, that would make them fundamentalists. If they didn’t leave recordings, that would be evidence of fanaticism until an observation of their lifestyle and personal beliefs would say otherwise.



I don't think the recordings or any sort of evidence would matter. The great majority of you would only see arabs attacking americans. The Iraq War is proof that small details like evidence don't have a great deal of importance to you.

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To conclude whether or not the inadvertent sacrifice of the kid’s family is an acceptable risk that’s proportionate to the past loss, as well as potential future loss, of American lives. When one cultural ideology is threatening the survival of another, you have to ascertain those kinds of balances.



I'd rather concentrate on finding a way so it doesn't come to that, because that kid is just as important as any american boy.

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Would you compromise your principles? Don’t bother answering, I already know you wouldn’t.



If it was for a worthy reason, such as, oh, I don't know, finding an alternative to genocide, I'd be willing to shove my individuality up my ass.

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I don't need to say I could be wrong, because to me that's implied in everything everyone says, including myself.



But you wouldn’t consider it while you’re arguing or else you’d destroy your consistency. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you operate on a pre-disposition of possibly being wrong? The answer is that you don’t operate on such a pre-disposition because you don’t make reservations or compromising statements.



I don't take either of us seriously. I realize we're just two kids pretending we know what we're talking about, and I imagine you must feel as glad that I'm not in a position to take any important decisions as I am that the same's true for you.

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What you’re ignoring is that you’re continually telling me that your way is the greater good when I’m making an effort to prove to you that your viewpoint is corrupted. If I actually think that I act for the sake of the greater good when you say I’m doing the exact opposite, how is that all on its own supposed to convince me that I’m wrong? You don’t even bother empathizing with my views and you expect me to turn over in my beliefs?

The fact of the matter here is that you’re incapable of viewing me and my culture in an objective light because you still hold a grudge against it. There’s really no use trying to convince someone who thinks the worst of you, for whatever reason possible, of anything.



I think I view your culture with much more objectivity than you do. You may argue that I hold a grudge, but even if that was true I'd say your perspective is a lot more compromised simply because you haven't experienced other cultures.
Also, again, comparing you to a culture that you consider inferior or whatever doesn't mean I think the worst of you, at least not from my perspective. I just feel like a kid in a schoolyard watching two other kids fight. They both look as "dumb" to me for doing it.

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But you do take extreme positions. The only reason you don’t think so is because you’re used to thinking of “extreme” as a form of violence. Telling another culture to be pacifistic when it’s surrounded by hostile elements is just as much an extreme position as being open to endorsing or participating in a war.



Argue that my ideas are extreme all you like, they'll never get anywhere near as drastic and irrevocable as wiping out an entire culture. I consider your views extreme because they don't allow the existance of any other option, you think the same about me because I don't think that's fair.

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I don't support abortion for the same reason: I personally don't think a two week old fetus is alive, but what if it is? That fetus is worth defending for that posibility alone.



That much I agree with, but I don’t see that as being extreme so much as it is common sense.



Exactly. And abortion is extreme, because it's irrevocable decision that doesn't consider the posibility of being wrong. You see what I'm saying now? Genocide is a million times that. It's only common sense to be against it.

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If one of those perspectives undermines the others and encourages you restrain the more hostile one(s), then that proves that you don’t actually believe all philosophies are equal. And since cultural individuality is built upon mass practiced philosophies, that means that not all cultures are equal or “equally valid.”



In pursuit of the greater good some individual philosophies have to be sacrificed, but we shouldn't forget that they're exactly that: a sacrifice. That doesn't mean the rest are more important, it only means they're lucky of being the majority.

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Are you honestly going to tell me that you don’t feel a viewpoint that’s violently disharmonious with all others isn’t “incorrect?”



How could I say that to you when I see your viewpoint as disharmonious and still willingly interact with you? I disagree with you but that doesn't make you incorrect.

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We weren’t actively fighting the ME when the USS Cole was hit or the WTC was attacked both times and yet we were still being assaulted.



You did, however, get involved with them in the past as part of another "endless" war (that I'm guessing you would have also suggested ending with an a-bomb), and the actions that you then saw as justified indirectly caused those attacks. There are a lot more factors to consider, yes, but it's undeniable that this makes them part of the viscious circle.

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Now that we’re engaged in a war with them, we’ve stymied the fanaticists of the population and our heightened security both in America and in Europe has intercepted numerous terrorist attempts. Our greater success at fighting terrorism on both fronts proves that just raising security here, when we can also be interrupting their ability to plan there, is an inadequate strategy.



It's also an inadequate strategy to concentrate in the attacks, that are only a symptom, and ignore the cultural problem that causes them. A problem like that can't be solved with violence.

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The greatest obstacle I encounter when arguing with you Mxy is that you suffer from the delusion that America is the root of all the violence. Do you honestly think that America would be left alone by the rest of the world if it just withdrew into itself? Time and again, we’ve been shown that things don’t work that way.



If you showed respect, I think you would receive it back. It works for those of us who tried it. You have a long list of countries who feel animosity towards you precisely because you insist in meddling in other people's business to solve your inmediate concerns, which in the long run brings you more troubles. Instead of taking responsibily and learning from your mistakes, you simply rinse and repeat and let the problems grow.

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There are much more terrifying things in this world than the US Mxy. It’s rather tragic, and stupid, that you were raised to believe that we’re the monsters under your bed.



So you're not conditioned by your parents or your culture, but I obviously must. Your opinion comes from "finding out thing for yourself", while mine is simply an effect of being raised in a certain way. I was actually raised in a pretty neutral enviroment: my parents are moderate representatives of each side of the fence, so nobody talks politics at home. It's not like there's any arguments either, cause they're not really that passionate about it. I grew up during a transitional time when everyone thought it was best not to discuss certain things, because the dictatorship had just ended and some people still felt very strongly about it. Only later on I read up on some stuff I never quite understood, and decided that it wasn't fair that a great part of the whole mess was caused by a bully nation.

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That’s not evidence of pre-disposition. I just as easily say that I acknowledge that possibility that I’m wrong regarding all things,



You only say you do, but your extreme postures show that you don't really do it.

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but I’m not about to admit it when you give me no evidence to the contrary except for your feelings. Socrates didn’t use his feelings as evidence, he inferred upon reality based on logical observations.



I'm aware that I'm no Socrates, but trust me, neither are you.

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Again, past history of international relations shows us that the world is pretty much apathetic to the mass extermination of people aside from some lip service that it’s an awful tragedy. The spotlight is only on us because everyone is s bitter towards us. We’re trying to protect our population whilst the ME inserts itself into our culture and harms us and yet you put China, Russia, the ME itself, and the nations within Africa, in the background even though their violence and oppression towards others is totally unprecedented.

Darfur isn’t going to be avenged. The ME will be though (if the world actually DID react). Not because it’s a tragic loss; it’s just because everyone hates America.



You cite these horrible examples as if the fact that they haven't received proper attention made genocide acceptable. It's still a monstruous crime, and by so thoroughly analyzing the reaction it would or wouldn't get you're only diverting attention from the action itself. I don't care if the precendent says the rest of the world wouldn't do something: they should do something every time it happens, whether the criminal is the US or Guatemala. Since it's never happened in the scale you're suggesting, I'm guessing this would be our wake up call.

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The world is petty, jealous, and pathetically shallow. I’m glad that I’m not considered apart of its population considering every other country makes such great efforts to distance themselves from us.



Once again, that's psychopathic behaviour. You don't play well with other kids because you've stolen all their lunchboxes, don't you know? You've had a "we're more important, fuck the rest" attitude since like the 50's... and now you're surprised that others don't like you? You admit that everything you do, you do for your own interest. That unfortunately evens out any good work you might do, at least in perception, because the rest of the world is expectant to see what you're trying to pull off this time. You've taught us to never take your actions for what they appear to be, so you can't be surprised that the majority of us distruts you.

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But we shouldn’t have to waste our time on this idea that all views need to be taken into account.



That kinda fucks democracy in the ass, doesn't it? Now you're not only talking about cultures being inferior or superior, it's also your own countrymen. What happened to "all men are born equal"?

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It’s very possible that a civil war would actually give you what you wanted Mxy. Depending on who won it of course.



You still don't get it. The very idea of a civil war goes against "what I want".

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Fuck them. And fuck you.



Speaking of resentment...

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As I said: The world is dishonest, conniving, ungrateful, and pathetically/impressionably shallow. I have no problem disassociating myself from such an establishment.



My, someone's cheerful today.