I've got a large collection of comicbook scans on CD that I've collected over the past 5 years. One of those collections is the complete run of Marvel's THE AVENGERS. Recently I've begun reading through the series from the beginning, and, well... I'm not impressed.
It started out promising. Stan Lee's collaboration with Jack Kirby is usually entertaining, if not very deep or thought-provoking. I noticed that aliens popped up in almost every issue, which was a bit annoying, but that was the trend at the time in comics, even at DC. There seemed to be a lot of characters or weapons that were supposedly the historical inspiration behind myths such as Medusa and others (which is interesting, since it presupposes that myths shouldn't be taken at face value while at the same time showcasing the character Thor, who is a character straight out of myth with no pseudo-historical explanation whatsoever).
A highlight of the early issues is the return of Captain America in issue #4. He was easily the most interesting character in the series from this point on, which is one of the reasons he remained when the Avengers "broke up" in issue #16.
Jack Kirby's involvement with the series ended fairly soon afterwards, and the quality predictably dropped.
I've heard (okay, read on Wikipedia) that the Avengers line-up from issue #16 on (Captain America, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver) were referred to as "Cap's Kooky Quartet." It struck me that the Avengers went from being Marvel's version of the JLA, a team of the world's greatest superheroes, to a small team akin to the original Teen Titans. The lineup isn't all that different:
Captain America = Robin
Quicksilver = Kid Flash
Scarlet Witch = Wonder Girl
Hawkeye = Speedy
Okay, Speedy wasn't a regular member back then -- Aqualad was -- but this wasn't meant to be an exact matchup. My point is that the Avengers went from the big time to a fairly small time group. Also, with the exception of Captain America, ALL THE OTHER MEMBERS WERE EX-CRIMINALS! Sure, Hawkeye was coerced into it by Black Widow, and Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were coerced by Magneto, but my point remains: Why would the old Avengers hand over their team to a group of ex-criminals with no history whatsoever of heroic deeds? Okay, okay, it's not that big a deal in the long run, but that seemed totally unbelievable even for Marvel.
I've gotten up to the mid-60s issues to the point where Giant-Man (as Goliath) and the Wasp rejoin the team, but between issue #16 and the the current issues I'm reading (around #34), it's been a complete bore-fest. A lot of boring battles, almost no plot, and stereotypical and cliched characterization. Having just come from reading 1960s FLASH comics, I realize that DC was definitely the more cerebral of the two comics companies at the time. Where DC lacked the characterization and emotional impact that Marvel was known for, DC still had solid plots and mysteries that required actual thought to fully enjoy them, at least in THE FLASH. There's almost none of that in THE AVENGERS. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get through much more of it if it doesn't get better soon.
It gets KIND of better with issue number #25...My FAV Avengers issues were from issue 25 to about issue 78. I have the first three Essential Avengers books.
Don't expect them to be awesome..just a bit better than the first 24 issues or so.
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The Time Trust said:
I've got a large collection of comicbook scans on CD that I've collected over the past 5 years. One of those collections is the complete run of Marvel's THE AVENGERS. Recently I've begun reading through the series from the beginning, and, well... I'm not impressed.
It started out promising. Stan Lee's collaboration with Jack Kirby is usually entertaining, if not very deep or thought-provoking. I noticed that aliens popped up in almost every issue, which was a bit annoying, but that was the trend at the time in comics, even at DC. There seemed to be a lot of characters or weapons that were supposedly the historical inspiration behind myths such as Medusa and others (which is interesting, since it presupposes that myths shouldn't be taken at face value while at the same time showcasing the character Thor, who is a character straight out of myth with no pseudo-historical explanation whatsoever).
A highlight of the early issues is the return of Captain America in issue #4. He was easily the most interesting character in the series from this point on, which is one of the reasons he remained when the Avengers "broke up" in issue #16.
Jack Kirby's involvement with the series ended fairly soon afterwards, and the quality predictably dropped.
I've heard (okay, read on Wikipedia) that the Avengers line-up from issue #16 on (Captain America, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver) were referred to as "Cap's Kooky Quartet." It struck me that the Avengers went from being Marvel's version of the JLA, a team of the world's greatest superheroes, to a small team akin to the original Teen Titans. The lineup isn't all that different:
Captain America = Robin
Quicksilver = Kid Flash
Scarlet Witch = Wonder Girl
Hawkeye = Speedy
Okay, Speedy wasn't a regular member back then -- Aqualad was -- but this wasn't meant to be an exact matchup. My point is that the Avengers went from the big time to a fairly small time group. Also, with the exception of Captain America, ALL THE OTHER MEMBERS WERE EX-CRIMINALS! Sure, Hawkeye was coerced into it by Black Widow, and Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were coerced by Magneto, but my point remains: Why would the old Avengers hand over their team to a group of ex-criminals with no history whatsoever of heroic deeds? Okay, okay, it's not that big a deal in the long run, but that seemed totally unbelievable even for Marvel.
I've gotten up to the mid-60s issues to the point where Giant-Man (as Goliath) and the Wasp rejoin the team, but between issue #16 and the the current issues I'm reading (around #34), it's been a complete bore-fest. A lot of boring battles, almost no plot, and stereotypical and cliched characterization. Having just come from reading 1960s FLASH comics, I realize that DC was definitely the more cerebral of the two comics companies at the time. Where DC lacked the characterization and emotional impact that Marvel was known for, DC still had solid plots and mysteries that required actual thought to fully enjoy them, at least in THE FLASH. There's almost none of that in THE AVENGERS. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get through much more of it if it doesn't get better soon.
Agreed!
I picked up a ton of Marvels Essentials a few years back! I was really looking forward to reading them.
I really enjoyed the FF and Spider-man books, I couldn't put the books down - I must have read a book a night.
It was time for the Avengers, after getting thru the first 4 issues - I put that fucker down! It took me, on and off, about a month to finish the first volume - very unrewarding!
I also really didn't enjoy the first Thor and Iron man volumes!
Except for the Lee/Ditko run on Amazing Spider-Man, and some of the original Fantastic Four issues, early Marvel comics bore the piss out of me. While I respect Kirby, I never, ever dug much of his art style. I think his FF was stand-out, I'll admit. Ditko was always my fav, especially in Doctor Strange. Also, I enjoy Romita, Sr. about as much as I enjoy his son....that being, not at all.
Jim Steranko on Agent of SHIELD, John Byrne on X-Men, and then Frank Miller on Daredevil. Those are the "classic" Marvel series that appeal to me. And those are primarily the 70's/80's.
The 60's belong to Carmine Infantino on Flash, Curt Swan on Superman, and Julius Shwartz on Justice League of America....
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Prometheus said:
Jim Steranko on Agent of SHIELD, John Byrne on X-Men, and then Frank Miller on Daredevil. Those are the "classic" Marvel series that appeal to me. And those are primarily the 70's/80's.
Agreed.
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Prometheus said:
The 60's belong to Carmine Infantino on Flash, Curt Swan on Superman, and Julius Shwartz on Justice League of America....
Agreed.
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Prometheus said:
Except for the Lee/Ditko run on Amazing Spider-Man, and some of the original Fantastic Four issues, early Marvel comics bore the piss out of me. While I respect Kirby, I never, ever dug much of his art style. I think his FF was stand-out, I'll admit. Ditko was always my fav, especially in Doctor Strange. Also, I enjoy Romita, Sr. about as much as I enjoy his son....that being, not at all.
Jim Steranko on Agent of SHIELD, John Byrne on X-Men, and then Frank Miller on Daredevil. Those are the "classic" Marvel series that appeal to me. And those are primarily the 70's/80's.
The 60's belong to Carmine Infantino on Flash, Curt Swan on Superman, and Julius Shwartz on Justice League of America....
And Jack Kirby on The Fantastic Four. 
I also loved Curt Swan and Jim Shooter's mid to late 1960's Adventure Comics featuring Superboy and The Legion of Super Heroes ...Issues 340 to 372 were verey good.
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The Time Trust said:
I've heard (okay, read on Wikipedia) that the Avengers line-up from issue #16 on (Captain America, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver) were referred to as "Cap's Kooky Quartet." It struck me that the Avengers went from being Marvel's version of the JLA, a team of the world's greatest superheroes, to a small team akin to the original Teen Titans. The lineup isn't all that different:
Captain America = Robin
Quicksilver = Kid Flash
Scarlet Witch = Wonder Girl
Hawkeye = Speedy
Wow, I never noticed that resemblance between the "quartet" Avengers and the Teen Titans.
While I see your point of how the Avengers went from JLA-like to Captain America and His Misfits, I find those "kooky quartet" Avengers some of my all-time favorite Avenger stories.
I liked it better after Goliath and the Wasp returned, and when Hercules started hanging out with the group. Then, added with Thor and Iron Man, they were a truly awesome power line up!
But I also liked the " Kooky Quartet", too. I read those issues back in 1965 - 1966.
I also enjoyed the " John Romita Jr" years on Spiderman.
Those were the BEST Spidey issues, IMO.
the problem with the early Avengers stuff is that by the time the book launched Lee and Kirby were severly overworked and several books suffered as a result (Avengers is probably the most notable example). they also fell victim to the continuity trap early on, having to constantly explain what members were doing in thier own titles and why they may not show up in the Avengers book. it really hurt the series and is probably one of the reasons for the big lineup change in 16.
at the time, it was really different to replace your biggest heroes with three reformed villains and I'd guess that most people that stayed with the book did so because of that.
I recommend you all check out the Earth's Mightiest Heroes mini that Joe Casey and Scott Kolins did a couple years ago. it does a great job of filling in the blanks in the early issues and extrapolating on and explaining things that the actual books kinda glossed over. worth your time.
Grimm, unfortunately, you are correct. The Avengers stories ..some were good, but the book never seemed to live up to it's full potential, unlike the 60's Fantastic Four, Spiderman, and Dr Strange, which were excellent, IMO.
I've got a trade with the first five issues. in one issue, Kirby drew the Hulk with three toes on each foot. you can kinda tell he was rushing through stuff to meet deadlines. Marvel was growing too fast for them, I think.
check out that mini, Beardguy, I think you might enjoy it.
Thanks, Grimm, I just might do that.
A Hulk with THREE toes?
That does not compute.
three toes. each foot. I shit you not.
The kirbsters art in Avengers is....loose!
Jack's art in Avengers was not up to his usual excellent standards..he was at his VERY best in Fantastic Four for all 103 issues that he drew them...the book was never near as good after he left. He brought his own ideas to the comic, in addition to drawing it. He is one of my TOP two fav artists..the other being Curt Swan..and I still unconsciously emulate the styles of both artists when I draw my own comics..I created my own group back in 1971. I started off purposely imitating both men, but I now have a style that is part Jack, part Curt, and part me.
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Grimm said:
I recommend you all check out the Earth's Mightiest Heroes mini that Joe Casey and Scott Kolins did a couple years ago. it does a great job of filling in the blanks in the early issues and extrapolating on and explaining things that the actual books kinda glossed over. worth your time.
No doubt! Best Casey work I've ever read. 
And, off subject....everyone check out the Thor: Blood Oath tpb. Oeming and Kollins, steeped in mythology, and superbly hilarious dialogue between the Warriors Three. They rag the SHIT out of Volstagg! Probably the most fun I've ever had reading a Thor story... 
Jack Kirbys art sucked!
I never did & never will understand why his art work is so revered!
I aint knocking his contribution to comics (even though the Fourth world was cack of the highest order) as in the early 60s he pretty much was Marvel, but c'mon, great artwork.......I think not!
Please get back into your box, Nowhereman.
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Prometheus said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
I recommend you all check out the Earth's Mightiest Heroes mini that Joe Casey and Scott Kolins did a couple years ago. it does a great job of filling in the blanks in the early issues and extrapolating on and explaining things that the actual books kinda glossed over. worth your time.
No doubt! Best Casey work I've ever read.
And, off subject....everyone check out the Thor: Blood Oath tpb. Oeming and Kollins, steeped in mythology, and superbly hilarious dialogue between the Warriors Three. They rag the SHIT out of Volstagg! Probably the most fun I've ever had reading a Thor story...
Blood Oath rocks! Oeming's the perfect guy to handle those characters. his Ares mini ain't bad either, although I'm missing Scott Kolins on art there. . .
I keep thinking of Corey Hart and the song BOY IN A BOX
I like Man In The Box by Alice in Chains....
great song. great for reading comics to.
I like to dance whilst I read my books!
you're a dancing queen, roy. only seventeen.
Feel the beat of my Tambourine!
I've recently read an old Hulk Essentials and thought it sucked to the point of embarrassment.
most of the early Hulk stuff was terrible.
I actually enjoyed the first Hulk volume up until Stan Lee stopped writing, then I found it more unreadable than the Avengers!
But I do like Hulk, so I am biased!
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ROY BATTY said:
But I do like Hulk, so I am biased!
You can read minds?
I'm living in a box, I'm living in a cardboard box!
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Nowhereman said:
I'm living in a box, I'm living in a cardboard box!
I know the song but I just can't remember the bands name!
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ROY BATTY said:
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Nowhereman said:
I'm living in a box, I'm living in a cardboard box!
I know the song but I just can't remember the bands name!
Rob Kamphausen & the Kamphausenets!
Previously known as the Village People
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ROY BATTY said:
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Nowhereman said:
I'm living in a box, I'm living in a cardboard box!
I know the song but I just can't remember the bands name!
It was Lou Reed or Cher!
I also always get those two mixed up!
Just like Hadaway and Lemmy Kilmister!
I always used to get Jimi Hendrix mixed up with Barry Manilow!
No wonder Copa Cabana wasnt on any of Hendrix's CDs!