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With all the talk of tax cuts for the ritch vs. middle class tax cuts vs. no tax cut vs. tax increases, I think it's time to look at a new tax proposal, "The Fair Tax" It's a tax proposal that many aren't familiar with but President Bush has expressed a willingness to consider. Before everyone takes side allow me to give a dumbed down explaination.
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It's simple
Simply put, the FairTax replaces the way we're currently taxed - based on our annual income - with a tax on goods and services. The FairTax is a voluntary “consumption" tax: the more you buy, the more you pay in taxes, the less you buy, the less you pay in taxes.
Everyone pays their fair share of taxes, and with the FairTax rebate, spending up to the poverty level is tax free. The Federal government is fully funded, including Social Security and Medicare, and you don't need an expert to determine your Federal taxes.
Good for exporting goods not exporting jobs:
The income tax exports our jobs, rather than our products. The FairTax brings jobs home. Most importantly, U.S. exports are not burdened by the FairTax, as they are with the current income tax. So the FairTax allows U.S. exports to sell overseas for prices 22 percent lower, on average, than they do now, with similar profit margins. Lower prices sharply increase demand for U.S. exports, thereby increasing job creation in U.S. manufacturing sectors. At home, foreign imports are subject to the same FairTax rate as domestically produced goods. Not only does the FairTax put U.S. products sold here on the same tax footing as foreign imports, but the dramatic lowering of compliance costs in comparison to other countries' value-added taxes also gives U.S. products a definitive pricing advantage which foreign tax systems cannot match.
No tax on used goods
No tax on used goods. No tax on business inputs. With the FairTax, if you choose to buy any new good or service, the sales tax is charged just as state sales taxes are computed today. If you choose to buy used goods - used car, used home, used appliances - you do not pay the FairTax. If, as a business owner or farmer, you buy something for strictly business purposes (not for personal consumption), you pay no consumption tax. So, in deciding what to buy, you get to choose whether or not you pay the federal consumption tax.
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Personally I think this tax does what both conservitives want (produce an equitable tax scale) and what the liberals want (a tax where the ritch pay a significant portion and the poor are protected from overtaxation)
Am I right? or tell me where I went wrong.
I realise this topic isn't as sexy as the battle between dum-dum and seabiscut, but let's show Rob and the rest that the ranting rabble residing in teh DT forum can acctually think.
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Would there be a tax on naners?
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Nope, naners are exempt as they're food stuffs.
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Well, it all seems fair and good. However, if all the government's money came from product taxes, instead of just some, prices for things would skyrocket. For example, people already have a hard time scrounging money to pay annual car taxes, what would happen if instead of $150 a year we had to pay $520 (at your increase to 22% - I took it from 6.4% as a guesstimate) a year. How do you explain how people get by day-to-day when the cost of living jumps? Sure we pay a lot in taxes each paycheck, but how will that even out enough? Or how would that make things better at all to take it out of products instead of pay and products? Having all the taxes taken from one place will also outrage people because we'll see exactly how much the government steals from us every day instead of merely once a year. Then people will want lower taxes and the gov't will be unhappy.
just some thoughts off the cuff
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Good ones too. On the issue of the car taxes asside from the overall price of a car going down, you wouldn't pay an annual tax you would only pay tax on the car once when you first bought it and that's only if you chose to buy new.
Also I personaly think it's a good thing that people are more aware of what they're paying in taxes. I think it would be alot better if people realised that 20-30% of what they pay retail is acctually goint to pay taxes.
Also remember when scrounging up money to pay your license fee for the car you'll be taking home 20% or more depending on your braket.
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Quote:
How do you explain how people get by day-to-day when the cost of living jumps?
Also remember food diapers and other necessities are tax free. and even reatil is tax free up to the poverty level.
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where is this strange perfect monetary society you advertise? Why aren't there big flashing problems? Or, better phrased, why am I not seeing them?
(easy answer: because I know shit about economics)
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Quote:
Uschi said:
where is this strange perfect monetary society you advertise? Why aren't there big flashing problems? Or, better phrased, why am I not seeing them?
(easy answer: because I know shit about economics)
The draw back is the fact that it would eliminate a government agency and when you try and do that the chances of acctually getting it passed are slim to none, but this proposal has garnered far more support than any other tax system in congress or the senate. I've had a very hard time finding anything negative against this proposal. i mean hell the thing even "punnishes" the ritch, so how could it be bad?
Quotes on taxes as they stand now:
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“It has made more liars out of the American people than golf.” -Will Rogers
“The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax.” -Albert Einstein
“We don't pay taxes. The little people pay taxes.” Leona Helmsley
“The testimony of history is that the Roman people finally welcomed the inroads of the barbarians as a lesser evil than the continuance of their tax system.” - Gibbon, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”
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I guess I just don't know much about economics either. Things did work pretty good in the 90's though & I don't understand why we would not try doing the things that worked first before resorting to a drastic change? What would keep this Fair Tax from being tainted from powerful lobbyists?
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I guess I just don't know much about economics either. Things did work pretty good in the 90's though & I don't understand why we would not try doing the things that worked first before resorting to a drastic change? What would keep this Fair Tax from being tainted from powerful lobbyists?
Well first off, things were good in the 90's because of the tech boom and the dot.coms. And bsides if something is unfair, so what if it works (it doesn't by the way, I'm just using a hypothetical) if it's not fair then it should be changed. If it's oppressive to most people then why not change it? Slavery was good for the economy*. As far as it being tainted by a powerfull lobyist, well to do that it would have to be re-written and if it ever was re-written, well then we would have to look at te re-written bill, now wouldn't we?
*The slavery comparrison should be looked at in context. I'm saying thier the same in magnitude, slavery was gross injustice unparrelelled today the tax system also doesn't seperate people by race. The point was simply that just because something works or is even good for the economy doesn't make it fair, right, unnopressive, moral etc...
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Quote:
Uschi said:
where is this strange perfect monetary society you advertise? Why aren't there big flashing problems? Or, better phrased, why am I not seeing them?
(easy answer: because I know shit about economics)
MEM comes up and dances around the "problem" but can't admit it because he is one of "them." 
The "problem" is that the government and the special interest groups like the current way we tax because it allows them essentially regulate by taxes things that we can't, or won't, regulate outright. The current system also allows politicans to give special breaks to special interests groups that would be eliminated under a fair tax.
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Oh, I wasn't questioning the human factor, of course the gov't will hate a fair taxation system. I'm looking for the flaw in the ideology.
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Quote:
Uschi said:
Oh, I wasn't questioning the human factor, of course the gov't will hate a fair taxation system. I'm looking for the flaw in the ideology.
Well lemme know if you find one, because as far as I can see, this idea is damn near perfect.
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...which is the main reason why I believe it has a fundamental flaw.
'if it seems too good to be true...'
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
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Quote:
Uschi said:
...which is the main reason why I believe it has a fundamental flaw.
'if it seems too good to be true...'
Well, it's not like we won't have to pay taxes (that would be too good to be true), the taxes would just be collected in a more equitable manner, but it should tell you something about the way taxes have worked up to this point that we would think a 23% tax on retail goods as being "too good to be true"
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Well first off, things were good in the 90's because of the tech boom and the dot.coms.
As I said before, the good economy added fuel to those booms.
Quote:
And bsides if something is unfair, so what if it works (it doesn't by the way, I'm just using a hypothetical) if it's not fair then it should be changed. If it's oppressive to most people then why not change it? Slavery was good for the economy*. As far as it being tainted by a powerfull lobyist, well to do that it would have to be re-written and if it ever was re-written, well then we would have to look at te re-written bill, now wouldn't we?
*The slavery comparrison should be looked at in context. I'm saying thier the same in magnitude, slavery was gross injustice unparrelelled today the tax system also doesn't seperate people by race. The point was simply that just because something works or is even good for the economy doesn't make it fair, right, unnopressive, moral etc...
Ever notice that when the industrial revolution occurred slavery was abandoned for the much cheaper machines? Perhaps if we make other things fair first? Why should I pay a higher car insurance premium for living near a "bad" area? Or how about different justice for those who can afford better lawyers. Let us deal with some of those issues first before worrying about a minor amount of petty change to those that have so much.
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Quote:
Ever notice that when the industrial revolution occurred slavery was abandoned for the much cheaper machines? Perhaps if we make other things fair first? Why should I pay a higher car insurance premium for living near a "bad" area? Or how about different justice for those who can afford better lawyers. Let us deal with some of those issues first before worrying about a minor amount of petty change to those that have so much.
This is the old argument of "we won't fix one problem untill we fix another" or "I won't shower untill I'm clean"
I'll start with your last line first. "A mior amount of petty change for those who have so much" Well, I don't have so much and this tax system would mean a HELL OF ALOT MORE than some petty change. This tax system would unload a very heavy burdon on me and my family. I don't get the "only the ritch pay taxes argument" do you work?
Second this has absolutely nothing to do with lawers or car insurance and at the risk of derailment, I don't see why it's unfair to pay more for car insurance in a bad neighborhood. When I lived in a bad neighborhood my car got broken into 5 times in one year, and who paid for that? My insurance. I've now lived in a safer neighbor hood for 4 years and you know how many times my car has been broken into? Z-E-R-O. My car insurance company saves money because I live in a safer neighborhood, so they passs savings on to me!
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I work quite a bit! All the straight guys & girls with families love me 'cause I'm the one who covers for them when they need to be home with a sick kid. I pay taxes & don't mind paying a bit more so that you and your family can pay a bit less.
My car also has never been broken in (I've lived in the area for 10 plus years) I'm paying extra not for living in a bad area but for living near one.
This is one I'm guessing you'll win. Look who you have on your side.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I work quite a bit! All the straight guys & girls with families love me 'cause I'm the one who covers for them when they need to be home with a sick kid. I pay taxes & don't mind paying a bit more so that you and your family can pay a bit less.
OK, then you cead my point that this isn't about only less taxation for the successfull?
Also remember that you have the right to make any donation you want to the government. so if you don't mind paying more then go right ahead.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Also remember that you have the right to make any donation you want to the government. so if you don't mind paying more then go right ahead.
HA HA HA HA HA! 
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I work quite a bit! All the straight guys & girls with families love me 'cause I'm the one who covers for them when they need to be home with a sick kid. I pay taxes & don't mind paying a bit more so that you and your family can pay a bit less.
OK, then you cead my point that this isn't about only less taxation for the successfull?
Also remember that you have the right to make any donation you want to the government. so if you don't mind paying more then go right ahead.
I'll have to reread my posts but I don't think I was argueing that. I just don't see the great benefits actually making it through the final draft and it will just be a chance to shift more of the tax burden on the middle class. BTW rereading that post, I make the assumption that I pay more taxes than you. I don't make big bucks so that very well may not be the case- sorry.
As for paying extra just on my own, I would, except it takes a whole lot of other people paying a bit extra to make a difference. I'll just donate that extra bit to the Kerry campaign this year 
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hehehehe Just to let you know! If ANY of you start whining about too high taxes I will personally rip the IP number from your computer and shove it up your respective arses  Actually, the FairTax system, we have that in Denmark, except that it goes for ALL goods, foodstuff and not! Plus we have taxes on income, which is an average of 50% of our income! AFTER that we have to pay a tax on everything we buy (it's not really a tax, but the principle is much the same) But I guess that's the price for having pratically all social and health services for free (except dental, and chiropractors, and Kindergartens, and daycare, and lotsa other stuff) 
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I couldn't have descibed the ills of an oppressive tax sytem better. See we want to try and AVOID going down that road.
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Actually, it's not really as bad as it sounds!
Because the average pay is on scale that more or less evens out the high tax!
Another thing that's good is:
You know you always see these movies where and American family is struggling to put their kids to college?
I'm pretty sure that actually takes place in real life too (correct me if I'm mistaken)
Anyhoo, it's not a problem here, because education is free! Actually, it's more than free, the state pays you for taking an education!
What I mean is, Besides for some Billions of our tax money that goes to the military, international aid and other such stuff. ALL the money I pay in my tax is coming back to me.
An example. Should you, or any of the other patrons here at Rob's board (maybe even Rob himself9 EVER decide to visit Denmark (I hope you do, it's actually quite nice) Should you then get hurt, or need to go to the doctor or the hospital for ANY reason at all (except dental, unless it's a hospital!) you needn't worry about health insurance, it's all paid in advance, courtesy of the Danish government and more importantly, the people's tax money!
Then there's the public libraries, which are free, there's the publi.....I could go on and on!
Now, Denmark has THE highest tax rate in the world today, and yes it IS much, TOO much in fact, but to be quite frank! The Danish people expect to get everything for free (except dental) but we don't want to pay for it!
Now, you can't have both, can you?
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We used to have free universities with grants to help you get through.
The Conservative party were intending to introduce fees but they got beaten in '97 by Blair's Labour who promised not to introduced them.
Then Blair's Labour introduced fees.
I had the joy of being among the first year of students to pay fees. Oh and take student loans to replace the grants.
Cheers Tony.
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Gee heaven forbid you acctually have to pay for your own education Anyway, I stated posting yesterday, but got rushed out the door. I HAVE visited Denmark. It is an incredibly beutifull place (ignorring all the overt displays of porn) while I didn't get hurt while I was there I did go to McDonnolds and a small cheese burger small fry and a small drink cost me the equivilant of 10$ US and that was 10 years ago when the same meal here would cost less than 3$. I don't think it's good to get a nation who expects everything for free and I've heard first hand the hell you have to go through to acctually get the healthcare you need.
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hehehe, yeah, some people get caught up in the system, but it really isn't that hard (except dental ) yes, things are expensive in Denmark, but as I said previously....Inflation (actually I didn't say that, but that's what I meant) We get paid more on average than you do, but we pay more also...
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Quote:
Chant said:
We get paid more on average than you do, but we pay more also...
True, but that goes to my argument to the fruitlessness of raising the minimum wage wich I'm not going into here.
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yes, well I guess since we both live in different "worlds" we have a different view on things, you think it's a bad idea, I think it's a good idea
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Quote:
Chant said:
yes, well I guess since we both live in different "worlds" we have a different view on things, you think it's a bad idea, I think it's a good idea
I guess.
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Anyone need some more evidence that the current tax system is broken? Quote:
Middle Class Said To Pay Higher Tax Rate Than Heinz Kerry And Kerry
Mon Oct 11 2004 10:22:17 ET
Stephen Moore, president of the Club for Growth, writes in the WALL STREET JOURNAL on Monday: "According to the Kerrys' own tax records, and they have not released all of them, the couple had a combined income of $6.8 million in income last year and paid $725,000 in income taxes. That means their effective tax rate was a whopping 12.8%.... "Under the current tax system the middle class pays far more than the Kerry tax rate. In fact, the average federal tax rate -- combined payroll and income tax -- for a middle-class family is closer to 20% or more. George W. and Laura Bush, who had an income one- tenth of the Kerrys', paid a tax rate of 30%. ...
"Here is the man who finds clever ways to reduce his own tax liability while voting for higher taxes on the middle class dozens of times in his Senate career. He even voted against the Bush tax cut that saves each middle-class family about $1,000." The Kerrys "have unwittingly made the case for what George W. Bush says he wants to do: radically simplify and flatten out the tax code. ... So before John Kerry is given the opportunity to raise taxes again on American workers, shouldn't he and Teresa at least pay their fair share?"
And this is all assuming that the Kerrys earn less than 1% on thier investments.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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