RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Pope Benedict XVI

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Animalman said:
Is it an official Catholic Church stance that rock music is a "vehicle of anti-religion"? I'm quite ignorant in regards to what exactly is common in pope behavior, so I'm really not sure.

He did say that almost 20 years ago, so maybe he's changed his mind(though I kind of doubt it), but that seems pretty crazy, especially considering the popularity of Christian rock.

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wannabuyamonkey said:

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Animalman said:
Is it an official Catholic Church stance that rock music is a "vehicle of anti-religion"? I'm quite ignorant in regards to what exactly is common in pope behavior, so I'm really not sure.

He did say that almost 20 years ago, so maybe he's changed his mind(though I kind of doubt it), but that seems pretty crazy, especially considering the popularity of Christian rock.

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Why would a non-Catholic care I wonder.

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Jim Jackson said:

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Animalman said:
Is it an official Catholic Church stance that rock music is a "vehicle of anti-religion"? I'm quite ignorant in regards to what exactly is common in pope behavior, so I'm really not sure.

He did say that almost 20 years ago, so maybe he's changed his mind(though I kind of doubt it), but that seems pretty crazy, especially considering the popularity of Christian rock.

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As someone deeply committed to rock music, I took interst in reading right after he was elected that Pope B XVI is anti-rock.

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Jim Jackson said:
Drums. Last band was a blues/rock thing. We recorded a CD of our original music. It's actually not bad.

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New pope intervened against Kerry in US 2004 election campaign

WASHINGTON (AFP) - German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican theologian who was elected Pope Benedict XVI, intervened in the 2004 US election campaign ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters including presidential candidate John Kerry.

In a June 2004 letter to US bishops enunciating principles of worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that strong and open supporters of abortion should be denied the Catholic sacrament, for being guilty of a "grave sin."

He specifically mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws," a reference widely understood to mean Democratic candidate Kerry, a Catholic who has defended abortion rights.

The letter said a priest confronted with such a person seeking communion "must refuse to distribute it."

A footnote to the letter also condemned any Catholic who votes specifically for a candidate because the candidate holds a pro-abortion position. Such a voter "would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for holy communion," the letter read.

The letter, which was revealed in the Italian magazine L'Espresso last year, was reportedly only sent to US Catholic bishops, who discussed it in their convocation in Denver, Colorado, in mid-June.

Sharply divided on the issue, the bishops decided to leave the decision on granting or denying communion to the individual priest. Kerry later received communion several times from sympathetic priests.

Nevertheless, in the November election, a majority of Catholic voters, who traditionally supported Democratic Party candidates, shifted their votes to Republican and eventual winner George W. Bush.

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wannabuyamonkey said:
Why would a non-Catholic care I wonder.

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wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm still baffled by all the non-Catholics who want to tell Catholics what to believe.

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Darknight613 said:
I respect Ratzinger's viewpoints on abortion and euthenasia (and for the most part, I'm anti-abortion myself), but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of prominent religious figures going around caling it a sin to vote for a certain politician or holding a certain opinion on an issue. It's the type of thing that can polarize and divide communities, many of which are alredy fragmented by partisanship.

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wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm still baffled by all the non-Catholics who want to tell Catholics what to believe.

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Cowgirl Jack said:

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Jim Jackson said:
Drums. Last band was a blues/rock thing. We recorded a CD of our original music. It's actually not bad.

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'It's actually not bad'? That's the best ad ever!

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Jim Jackson said:

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wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm still baffled by all the non-Catholics who want to tell Catholics what to believe.

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In fairness, I'm still baffled by all you believers who tell the rest of us that we SHOULD believe.

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Do you not have an opinion on the subject, or did you just not consider it a question worth answering?

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wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm still baffled by all the non-Catholics who want to tell Catholics what to believe.

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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:

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wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm still baffled by all the non-Catholics who want to tell Catholics what to believe.

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Heh. NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FEELS!

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According to the Church of Rome, all Protestants are heretics and anathema.

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Pariah said:
Why shouldn't he have something to say about it and its regards to other candidates considering its importance, which imposes media (as oppose to moral values for secularity's sake) potential that would be a possible equivilant to murder?

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Now that Americans have had a few days to absorb the election of Pope Benedict XVI, it's clear that conservative Christians — whether Roman Catholic or not — feel they've won another battle in the nation's culture wars. Liberals seem to ready to concede the point, but they aren't happy about it.

The Vatican bells had barely stopped clanging when the Rev. John Thomas, president of the left-leaning United Church of Christ, was denouncing the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Though Thomas once served as his denomination's envoy to other Christians, he abandoned all pretense of the politesse that's expected at such ecumenical moments.

"Cardinal Ratzinger's long tenure in the Vatican has been marked by a theological tone that is rigid, conservative and confrontational," said Thomas, whose denomination will consider a resolution supporting same-sex marriage at its July convention.

The pope has lacked "the warm pastoral heart" that bishops need, Thomas charged, his "harsh treatment" of liberal theologians as head of the Vatican's orthodoxy watchdog agency was "profoundly troubling" and his attitude toward non-Catholics has been "narrow," "constrained," "insensitive" and "demeaning."

In other words, this pope is no liberal Protestant.

A competing assessment: "Faithful Christians ought to be thrilled," declared Charles Colson, the prison evangelist who's among the best-known members of America's largest Protestant group, the Southern Baptist Convention.

Colson is especially pleased because, as he sees it, America's cultural elite is alarmed by the cardinals' choice. He praised Ratzinger's recent sermon against moral relativism, which amounted to a papal campaign platform. He also agreed with the pope that Western civilization is doomed if secular trends persist.

It's significant that Colson is scheduled to appear Sunday night in Louisville, Ky., for a "Justice Sunday" rally where conservative Protestants will denounce what they call "out-of-control courts" and Democratic filibusters to block U.S. Senate votes on nominees to be federal appeals judges.

Underpinning that event is disquiet over rulings at both the state and federal level in such matters as same-sex marriage in Massachusetts, the Terri Schiavo right-to-die case and numerous abortion disputes.

While the pope is no Protestant, conservative evangelicals see him as a powerful ally in such matters and Benedict's track record suggests they're correct.

As a cardinal, his Vatican office notified Catholic politicians in 2003 that they shouldn't support laws that contradict fundamental moral teachings on matters like abortion. A follow-up decree added that it's "gravely immoral" not to oppose legal recognition of same-sex unions.

In the midst of Catholic John Kerry's presidential campaign, Ratzinger wrote a confidential letter advising the U.S. hierarchy that a bishop has the ultimate right to deny Communion to politicians who disagree with the church but should meet with and warn them first.

Another factor in the new pope's relationship with Americans: Benedict has better command of English than any other modern pope, and probably knows more about the U.S. religious situation than any of his papal predecessors when they were elected.

While Catholic liberals believe it would be both wise and just for the church to loosen up on doctrinal demands, Benedict might draw the opposite conclusion from U.S. Protestant trends.

Since the mid-1960s, liberal denominations like Thomas' United Church of Christ have suffered a steady slide in membership, while conservative groups like the Southern Baptists have continued to expand. And in the past generation, Southern Baptist agencies have actually moved from moderate conservatism to stricter conservatism.

Penn State historian Philip Jenkins noted in his book "The Next Christendom" that the same trend is true globally.

While flexible, modernized churches stagnate, evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity are growing in the developing world — as is Islam. These groups have been dogged in preserving doctrinal and moral tradition.

If Benedict plays to conservative Christians in the United States, he'll be working with the growth sector of the religious world today.

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I have nothing against him speaking out against abortion or being against it. But when I hear anyone say stuff along the lines of "voting for a candidate who supports this is a sin"...I don't know how to explain it - it just doesn't feel right.

I agree that abortion itself is wrong unless it's necessary (health issues, etc.), but I can't bring myself to call anyone who supports a pro-choice candidate a sinner.

Besides, I never said he shouldn't say stuff like that - just that it makes me uncomfortable when he does.

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Steve T said:
So how do you rate sin?

Bush not being Catholic makes him a sinner.
We are all sinners in various ways under Catholic belief. Why pick out Kerry's sin of not saying abortion is right but giving people the choice (the right/wrong of abortion is a different argument, I mention this only cos Kerry did say he doesn't agree with abortion himself)?

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wannabuyamonkey said:
He believes it's a sin, you don't. He also believes that being a protestant is a ticket to Hell.

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Steve T said:
Bush not being Catholic makes him a sinner.

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We are all sinners in various ways under Catholic belief. Why pick out Kerry's sin of not saying abortion is right but giving people the choice (the right/wrong of abortion is a different argument, I mention this only cos Kerry did say he doesn't agree with abortion himself)?

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Pariah said:

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wannabuyamonkey said:
He believes it's a sin, you don't. He also believes that being a protestant is a ticket to Hell.

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Zuh? Where did he ever say this?

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Steve T said:
Bush not being Catholic makes him a sinner.
We are all sinners in various ways under Catholic belief. Why pick out Kerry's sin of not saying abortion is right but giving people the choice (the right/wrong of abortion is a different argument, I mention this only cos Kerry did say he doesn't agree with abortion himself)?

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wannabuyamonkey said:
Has he said boo about overturning Trent? By accepting it he's passively asserting it.

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the G-man said:

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Steve T said:
Bush not being Catholic makes him a sinner.
We are all sinners in various ways under Catholic belief. Why pick out Kerry's sin of not saying abortion is right but giving people the choice (the right/wrong of abortion is a different argument, I mention this only cos Kerry did say he doesn't agree with abortion himself)?

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I think the issue is that anyone, including John Kerry, who violates, or advocates a law that allows one to violate, a central tenet of whatever religion they practice, may have surrended, in the eyes of some, the right to "brag" about being a member of that particular faith.

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Canon 4. If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 15. If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined,[119] let him be anathema.

Canon 16. If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation,[120] let him be anathema.

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wannabuyamonkey said:
The Council of Trent refers to us as Anathema, not falcial. Anethema meaning damned or cursed.

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VATICAN CITY - A day after reaching out to other Christians and to Jews in his installation Mass, Pope Benedict XVI met Monday with members of the Muslim community, assuring them the church wanted to continue building "bridges of friendship" that he said could foster peace in the world.

Benedict made the comments while meeting with religious leaders who attended Sunday's installation ceremony, saying he was particularly grateful that members of the Muslim community were present.

"I express my appreciation for the growth of dialogue between Muslims and Christians, both at the local and international level," he said.

He noted that the world is marked by conflicts but longs for peace.

"Yet peace is also a duty to which all peoples must be committed, especially those who profess to belong to religious traditions," he said. "Our efforts to come together and foster dialogue are a valuable contribution to building peace on solid foundations.

"It is therefore imperative to engage in authentic and sincere dialogue, built on respect for the dignity of every human person, created as we Christians firmly believe, in the image and likeness of God," he said.

Later, Benedict told an audience of German pilgrims that at one point during the conclave that elected him pope, when he was getting many votes during the balloting, he had prayed to God that he might be spared the job.

Speaking in his native German, Benedict told the audience that a cardinal slipped him a note of paper reminding him what he had preached about Christ calling Peter to follow him even if he did not want to go. Benedict, 78, said he had hoped to spend his last years living quietly and peacefully.

"At a certain point, I prayed to God, 'Please don't do this to me,'" he recalled. "Evidently, this time he didn't listen to me."

Benedict was interrupted several times by applause and cheering, and he seemed to enjoy the welcome from his countrymen, smiling and chuckling. He apologized for being late, saying the meeting with the religious leaders had been "heartfelt" and had gone late.

"The Germans are used to punctuality," he joked. "I'm already very Italian."

The Vatican did not say which Muslim leaders attended the meeting, which was closed to the press.

But it did release a list of those who attended Sunday's Mass, including Saeed Taghavi, head of the office of religious minorities in Iran's culture ministry, and the head of Rome's central mosque.

Two dozen Buddhist representatives also were on the list, which included the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams; Metropolitan Chrisostomos, a top envoy for Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, the spiritual leader of the world's Christian Orthodox Church; and a senior representative of the Russian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Kirill.

Most Jewish leaders could not attend the Mass because it coincided with Passover.

"I assure you that the church wants to continue building bridges of friendship with the followers of all religions, in order to seek the true good of every person and of society as a whole," Benedict said.

The message was significant because Benedict had left out any specific mention of Muslims in his inaugural homily, although he had directed a greeting to "believers and nonbelievers alike."

In the homily, he specifically mentioned Jews, calling them his "brothers and sisters" who were joined with Catholics in a "shared spiritual heritage." He also called several times for full communion of Christians.

Benedict repeated that message Monday, telling ecumenical leaders that he fully supported the need to work toward uniting Christians divided by schism and saying the ecumenical presence at his installation was a good sign.

"Your presence, dear brothers in Christ, beyond that which divides us and casts a shadow over our full and visible communion, is a sign of sharing and support for the bishop of Rome, which can count on you for following the path in the hope and for the belief toward he who is the head, the Christ," he said.

In his homily Sunday, Benedict — who has a reputation as a hard-liner for leading Vatican crackdowns on dissidents — said he wanted to shape his papacy by being a "listener" and not set off by imposing his own ideas.

"My real program of governance is not to do my own will, not to pursue my own ideas, but to listen, together with the whole church, to the word and the will of the Lord," Benedict said in his inauguration homily.

The pope did not elaborate, but the speech suggested his papacy could study some pressing issues, such as greater social activism and ways to reverse the decline of church attendance and the dwindling number of priests in the West. In his previous role as guardian of church teaching, he had staunchly opposed calls for fundamental changes such as ending bans on contraception or for allowing women to become priests.

"I was quite prejudiced against him at first," said Maria Theising-Otte, a teacher from a Catholic grammar school in Handrup, Lower Saxony, who was among the German pilgrims lining up for their audience with the pope.

"But now that I've seen him, read about him, I've changed my mind. I think he came across quite human, very modest and decent," during his installation Mass on Sunday, she said.

She was with 1,800 students from the Gymnasium Leonium Handrup who traveled to Rome — a trip that was originally planned for the canonization Sunday for the founder of their school, Leo Dehon, but postponed after Pope John Paul II died April 2.

"You never know when you have a chance to do it again, to see him face to face," she said.

Later Monday, Benedict was to celebrate a Mass at a Rome basilica, St. Paul Outside the Walls.

Since being elected pope April 19, Benedict has sought a more inclusive image.

Benedict's effort to reach out to Jews carries an added dimension because of his membership in the Hitler Youth and later as a German army conscript during World War II. He has said he was forced into participating.

"With his German background, I certainly believe that he will be sympathetic toward Jews and I think he will continue the path of John Paul II, who made some very significant symbolic gestures," said Menachem Friedman, a sociology professor at Bar Ilan University in Israel. "But I think it is much too early to comment."