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From a Paul O'Brian column at Ninth Art.
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Speaking as a Marvel fan, after the last few weeks, it's nice to be reassured that DC also have the ability to publish something which is high profile, has top name creators attached, and yet is utterly underwhelming.
ALL STAR BATMAN & ROBIN, THE BOY WONDER #1 is a weird book. Leaving aside the dreadful title, which sounds like the product of a committee of accountants and intellectual property lawyers struggling to reach a minimum word count in time for lunch, it's rather unclear what it's actually for. It's described in the solicitations as an "imaginative reinvention of these classic characters", which isn't really true. It's the first book of the All Star line, which doesn't really take us much further forward, since DC's explanations of the All Star line have been oblique at best.
As near as I can make out, DC's explanations consist of muttering about building on history yet not being tied to continuity; being contemporary, yet timeless; aiming for a wider audience; and mentioning the word "iconic" every couple of sentences. If you can actually extract a coherent agenda from DC's attempts to explain the line, you're a better man than I am.
What the book actually contains, far from being any sort of reinvention, is a retelling of the origin of Dick Grayson as Robin, with various plot details tweaked, and filtered through the sort of sensibility that you might expect from Frank Miller and Jim Lee when aiming squarely for the mainstream. It's well trodden ground, there's no real new ideas being offered, and the book doesn't exactly benefit from a silly five page sequence of Vicky Vale wandering around her apartment in high heels and lingerie for no reason whatsoever.
But really, no matter how you do it... Robin? In 2005? Seriously?
If you spend enough time reading superhero comics then the most bizarre and ridiculous ideas can come to seem completely normal. "Victor von Doom" starts to sound like a perfectly normal name for a villain. Death on skis becomes a completely familiar part of DC cosmology. And kid sidekicks start to feel entirely natural. Well, in the DC Universe, anyway.
If you were a superhero in the 1940s, then a kid sidekick came fitted as standard. It was a genre staple. Most of the major DC heroes had them. For that matter, so did Captain America and the Human Torch over at Timely. No major superhero was complete without the loyal accompaniment of a miniature version of himself. Mind you, "sophistication" and "credibility" were not exactly the watchwords of Golden Age superhero comics. They were, after all, kiddie books – not that there's anything wrong with that.
'The sheer absurdity of the concept becomes harder to justify' In a world of simple stories aimed at young readers, the kid sidekick made perfect sense. He was the reader identification figure. You, the reader, were not the superhero. The superhero was your dad, and he took you on adventures. And in the stories of the time, this all fitted together.
Of course, the style of the Golden Age is long since past. Even by the time of the Silver Age, while the DC teen sidekicks didn't seem grossly out of place, Lee and Kirby certainly weren't creating any new ones. It's surely no accident that Captain America was brought back without the annoying brat in tow.
Subsequently, the kid sidekick has started to seem more and more out of place. It's been decades since anybody created a successful new sidekick character, unless you count retro jokes, or characters intended simply to fill the shoes of an existing sidekick who had died or grown up. Instead, teen superhero characters have either been used as the lead characters in books of their own (Teen Titans, Runaways, New Warriors), or at least been positioned as apprentices (such as the New Mutants).
This isn't a particularly surprising development. As the audiences have grown older, the readers no longer want to identify with the sidekick in preference to the hero. And as the stories have become more sophisticated, the sheer absurdity of the concept becomes harder and harder to justify even with the considerable suspension of disbelief that the genre enjoys. Captain America taking children into battle in 2005 seems ridiculous – which is why Ed Brubaker has been trying to explain Bucky away as a trained crack commando of some sort.
And yet, over at DC, there's Robin, a little primary coloured splodge, ludicrously out of place against the prevailing "grim and sullen" take on Batman. Why is he there? If he didn't exist, would anyone even think of creating him? Ultimately, Robin continues to exist for one simple reason: inertia. He's there because he always has been, for as long as most people alive can remember. He makes no sense, he's out of synch with the style of the book, and his time passed half a century ago – but by god, he's still there.
To long-time comics fans, Robin's presence simply seems natural. We just tune out the silliness of it. To a more casual audience, he must surely leap out as a symbol of everything that's slightly embarrassing about superheroes. Mention the word "Batman" to the average man on the street, and there's a passable chance he'll think of one of the relatively dignified recent films. Mention "Batman and Robin", and he's probably thinking of Burt Ward in tights.
Robin's fine for what he was originally created for – a figure for kids to identify with. And in stories actually aimed at children, perhaps he has a function. As a member of the Teen Titans, he's arguably workable. But as a straightforward teen sidekick, he's a walking relic of a much more innocent time, when plots were basic, expectations were low, and readers were mostly in primary school.
For me, this is why ALL STAR BATMAN doesn't really work. There's a ridiculous clash between Robin (the character, the concept and the story) and the style that's being used to do the story. Women parading around in their underwear for absolutely no reason is the sort of thing that just about worked in SIN CITY because that book operates under the rules of noir. Put them next to the origin of Robin and the result is a horrible clash of subgenres. It reads like a comic aimed at people with a reading age of seven, and a wanking age of thirteen.
It's a style clash that really doesn't work even for many long time comics fans. It must seem utterly bizarre to the more casual readers that the All Star line seems to be trying to reach. Batman is a genuinely flexible character who's endured for decades in a wide variety of interpretations, which tends to suggest that he might just about merit the much-abused "iconic" tag. Robin is just a brightly-coloured brat who's been around a while. It's not the same.
Thoughts?
Last edited by Wednesday; 2005-08-03 6:14 PM.
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makes a good point.
I don't mind the Tim Drake design. Its got darker colors, a black cape, and is clearly a type of body armor.
But the Dick Grayson Robin just some bright circus tights and bare legs.
A little gay, and way too much of child endangerment.
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Pete Townshend & Michael Jackson are avid readers!
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Yeah, the entire Robin/Bucky concept is pretty dumb.
Not to mention the fact that, there have been, like, three of them. I mean, Batman himself is only supposed to have been around for 10, 12 years max. That would give each Robin a max average of four years from the beginning of his training to the point where he either retired the name, died, or reached present day (and for that you have to be willing to accept the idea that Batman started training Dick Grayson at the beginning of his own career).
Four years each. Consider for a second that kind of turnover rate. It's not like there's an overlap. He doesn't start training one while another is still out there (though he might as well). From start to finish, Robins last four years.
How long does each Robin fight crime? One year? That seems a little quick. Well, it can't be four, that wouldn't leave any time for actual training in the Batcave. Two years? Two years of fighting crime and something happens to you? That means a guy who supposedly trained himself for about eight to ten years to fight crime quite likely decided to unleash barely pubescent teen boys on the bullet filled streets after about two years worth of training, maybe even less.
No wonder they don't last very long.
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Dick didnt become Robin til year 3 of Batmans career,meaning the Robin career would have been a lot shorter as its only 7 to 9 year span that Robin has existed.
I'd say that Dicks career would have been the longest,and maybe Jasons the shortest.
Still doesnt explain why Dick has aged more than Batman though!
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Even as a kid I thought kid sidekicks were stupid. Get rid of them. They only exist for nostalgic and trademark purposes.
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There's been four Robins. You forget the Spoiler took Drakes place for a little before she was killed.
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I did, but I didn't. She doesn't really work in the timetable since she was self-trained for the most part and lasted maybe months.
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Still doesnt explain why Dick has aged more than Batman though!
Did he?
If Dick went from being, say, 15 to 22, I can accept that. Meanwhile, Bats aged from 25 to 32. A decade of age between them can make a lot of difference in how much they physically age.
What's funny to me is that, while Bruce is only 10 or so years older than Dick Grayson, adoption services saw no problem with that and let him adopt. No one ever brought it up.
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whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Roger Stern once explained to me that DC repeatedly did studies that found kids like Robin. So that's why he stays.
That being said, while I thought the first issue of the book was okay, I too was disappointed that, given the "All Star" nature of the book, they didn't at least put Dick in the Tim Drake version of the costume. Why do an "All Star" book as opposed to say, another "Robin Year One," if you are just retelling the origin more or less the same way its always been told?
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Still doesnt explain why Dick has aged more than Batman though!
Did he?
If Dick went from being, say, 15 to 22, I can accept that. Meanwhile, Bats aged from 25 to 32. A decade of age between them can make a lot of difference in how much they physically age.
Actually, Dick was supposed to be about 10-12 when he started and now seems to be about 25 or so.
Bow ties are coool.
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robin is an access point to a lot of the batman titles. kids can't always associate with batman, but they could associate with robin -- closer to their age, and a more attainable, belieavable persona / ability level. a kid wouldn't necessarily think "i have to beat up killer croc, and rescue that orphan before he's murdered," but he might think "wow, batman is so cool, especially when he beat up killer croc and saved that kid! ... and i got to help!!"
its also, as expressed by time sale and bruce timm, amongst others, a great contrast, visually, to batman. batman looks like a big, dark badass -- put plop him next to a wee lil kid in bright colors and, bam, he's scarier times ten!
personally, i'm not muchuva fan, unless its done in small doses.
and, really, the only perspective i like is that of robin being a low-ranking soldier in training. i.e; what batman says is law, no questions, ever. carrie kelly was a great example of that, as was the animated tim drake.
i also prefer the animated tim drake's costume -- a much darker tone of colors, and limited to a robin's red (with some yellow thrown in)
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Touché
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Roger Stern once explained to me that DC repeatedly did studies that found kids like Robin. So that's why he stays.
That being said, while I thought the first issue of the book was okay, I too was disappointed that, given the "All Star" nature of the book, they didn't at least put Dick in the Tim Drake version of the costume. Why do an "All Star" book as opposed to say, another "Robin Year One," if you are just retelling the origin more or less the same way its always been told?
Well, like Pro said, it's only the first book. I'll wait to see what happens.
I am disappointed, though, that they introduced Robin so early. If they were gonna do an Ultimate-style series, they could have shown Batman alone for at least a bit.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Still doesnt explain why Dick has aged more than Batman though!
Did he?
If Dick went from being, say, 15 to 22, I can accept that. Meanwhile, Bats aged from 25 to 32. A decade of age between them can make a lot of difference in how much they physically age.
Actually, Dick was supposed to be about 10-12 when he started and now seems to be about 25 or so.
Exactly!
I seem to remember that he was sposed to be 12 when he started,and at some point in the New Teen Titans I remember him celebrating his 21st birthday.
He now seems to be somewhere round 25 or so,as you say!
If you say Batman has been active 12 years (although its usually said to be more like 10),then Dick has been active a maximum of 9 years and is only 21 years old now!
Compare Dick to Wally,Donna,Garth & Roy,and they all have passed the 21 years old mark some time ago,and all seem to be in their mid twenties.
Personally I think its should just be said that Bruce is in his mid to late thirties,as I think he is one character who would work better as a slightly older guy with more experience!
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Actually, Dick was supposed to be about 10-12 when he started and now seems to be about 25 or so.
Maybe he's just acting older than he really is.
He just recently moved to college and then, eventually, to the police force in the DC timetable, right? I can see him as a 22-year-old who carries himself as if he was considerably older.
Shrug.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
I am disappointed, though, that they introduced Robin so early. If they were gonna do an Ultimate-style series, they could have shown Batman alone for at least a bit.
I would assume that Miller figures he already did "Ultimate-style" Batman 20 years ago with "Year One."
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I found this issue to be lacking. Had Miller not redone Robin's origins and implied that Bruce likes watching little boys in tights, I'd have gone for it a little more. Plus, I think DC has taken the wrong direction and should have used the All Star line to be more kid friendly and help generate newer, younger readers. Robin as a concept I could do without. I don't need Robin to identify with a book. I don't want to identify myself with Batman. I want to be awed by him. I like how they've let Dick change as a person over the years. I like the contrasts between all the Robins. I like Tim and Dick's working and social interactions. I just don't like it when they work with Batman too much. Quote:
the G-man said:
Roger Stern once explained to me that DC repeatedly did studies that found kids like Robin. So that's why he stays.
They don't buy the books, so why should DC care anymore?
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
its also, as expressed by time sale and bruce timm, amongst others, a great contrast, visually, to batman. batman looks like a big, dark badass -- put plop him next to a wee lil kid in bright colors and, bam, he's scarier times ten!
I always thought it made Batman look goofy....................................... and like a pedophile.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Actually, Dick was supposed to be about 10-12 when he started and now seems to be about 25 or so.
Maybe he's just acting older than he really is.
He just recently moved to college and then, eventually, to the police force in the DC timetable, right? I can see him as a 22-year-old who carries himself as if he was considerably older.
Shrug.
Well, time in comics is always sketchy. But I know the first Wally Flash issue had Wally turning 20. And a later Mark Waid issue mentioned him as 26.
And Dick left for college at age 18 in 1969. So, I don't think its possible to say only 4 years have gone by for him in the past 36.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
robin is an access point to a lot of the batman titles. kids can't always associate with batman, but they could associate with robin -- closer to their age, and a more attainable, belieavable persona / ability level. a kid wouldn't necessarily think "i have to beat up killer croc, and rescue that orphan before he's murdered," but he might think "wow, batman is so cool, especially when he beat up killer croc and saved that kid! ... and i got to help!!"
Bullshit. I've heard that standard industry line again and again and I've never bought into that. No kid wants to be the sidekick. They want to be the hero. When I was a kid, I never wanted to be Robin, and neither did any of my friends. We wanted to be the heroes, not the useless, boring sidekicks.
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as a kid I wanted to be Batman. Why I want to pretend to be the sidekick?
only a kid with severe insecurity issues would.....oh! never mind, Rob.
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I've always thought Robin is a concept that doesn't work outside of intentionally goofy comics. It's just too stupid.
That said, as I watched The Bat-Man Be-Gins I came up with a way for it to work. In the movie, Bats says something like he's more than a man now, he's a symbol. If so, it makes sense for him to recruit and train someone to follow his steps so there can be a The Bat-Man after he dies. He's not actually looking for someone yet, since he's young. But, one day he sees this kid who becomes an orphan in a violent way and recognizes himself in him. Since he actually watched the murders, this is different from any other orphan kid he might read about, he feels more connected to him and must do something about his situation. Bruce adopts the kid to make sure he doesn't go through all the shit he had to go through as a fatherless kid and as an angry young adult training himself. Since the kid is trained for the circus, it's not that far fetched to start training him to become The Bat-Man... when he grows up.
So, Bruce is raising and training his son, maybe not telling him that he's actually The Bat-Man, and one day Dick finds the The Bat-Cave. "WHOA!" "What the shit are you doing here? THE CLOCK IS OFF LIMITS DAMMIT!" Dick asks Bruce if he can be his superhero sidekick, and Bruce said "well, that's a stupid idea" and forbids Dick to go out at night and fight baddies as The Bat-Lad. Dick makes his own costume (hence the gayness) and manages to sneak out anyway, first under Bruce's nose. Then Bruce finds out and grounds him, which doesn't stop Dick from finding new ways to sneak out. So, every time he bumps into Bruce he gets into big troubles.
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Quote:
Grimm said:
Bullshit. I've heard that standard industry line again and again and I've never bought into that. No kid wants to be the sidekick. They want to be the hero. When I was a kid, I never wanted to be Robin, and neither did any of my friends. We wanted to be the heroes, not the useless, boring sidekicks.
its not that the kid actually is robin, or even wants to become robin. batman is still the cool sunhumma bitch.
robin is just an access point to that character -- the kids eyes and ears to batman.
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No, he's a distraction away from Batman. Instead of the Dark Knight, he becomes Adam West.
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If they want Robin to exist in this day & age,he needs to be away from Batman.
It worked in the golden age,it even worked in the silver age,but these days Batman "AND" Robin is just not a viable concept.
If they wanna give Bats a sidekick,Nightwing is perfect.
Not only is he the evolution of Robin,but he fits the darker element while still retaining the lightness that Robin was always sposed to bring to the mix.
Kid sidekciks should stay a thing of the past.
Whats next,a revival of pets as sidekicks?
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 Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I've always thought Robin is a concept that doesn't work outside of intentionally goofy comics. It's just too stupid.
That said, as I watched The Bat-Man Be-Gins I came up with a way for it to work. In the movie, Bats says something like he's more than a man now, he's a symbol. If so, it makes sense for him to recruit and train someone to follow his steps so there can be a The Bat-Man after he dies. He's not actually looking for someone yet, since he's young. But, one day he sees this kid who becomes an orphan in a violent way and recognizes himself in him. Since he actually watched the murders, this is different from any other orphan kid he might read about, he feels more connected to him and must do something about his situation. Bruce adopts the kid to make sure he doesn't go through all the shit he had to go through as a fatherless kid and as an angry young adult training himself. Since the kid is trained for the circus, it's not that far fetched to start training him to become The Bat-Man... when he grows up.
So, Bruce is raising and training his son, maybe not telling him that he's actually The Bat-Man, and one day Dick finds the The Bat-Cave. "WHOA!" "What the shit are you doing here? THE CLOCK IS OFF LIMITS DAMMIT!" Dick asks Bruce if he can be his superhero sidekick, and Bruce said "well, that's a stupid idea" and forbids Dick to go out at night and fight baddies as The Bat-Lad. Dick makes his own costume (hence the gayness) and manages to sneak out anyway, first under Bruce's nose. Then Bruce finds out and grounds him, which doesn't stop Dick from finding new ways to sneak out. So, every time he bumps into Bruce he gets into big troubles.
It was a piano, not a clock!
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Quote:
Grimm said:
No, he's a distraction away from Batman. Instead of the Dark Knight, he becomes Adam West.
how so?
nearly every modern day bat-tale has featured a robin to some extent. hell, the batman in dark knight returns, perhaps the grimmest of them all (to steal your namesake) was hardly adam west, despite not only utilizing a robin, but a girl robin.
i guess it just depends on what kinda stories you're looking for. robin can be worked into some, but not others.
fits well in DKR, but perhaps not so in year one (despite the chronological order). i can't imagine a robin working, at all, in any of the batman films, particularly 'batman begins.'
however, he worked damn near perfectly in every instance of the 50+ episodes he costarred within the animated series.
dismissing the concept all together as useless is unnecessarily rash.
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I would have to go with Grimm on this one. Robin, as a character alone may be fine. But, when paired with Batman, it waters down his entire 'loner' concept. I mean, what is it with "loners" in comics these days? Wolverine and Batman surround themselves with fucking armies. They simple aren't loners.
Nighwing is great because he is his own, legitimate identity. As a partner (because he's way too experienced and way too old to be a "sidekick") he would be more useful, and functional, to Batman than any "Robin".
Robin is used, mainly, because of copyright reasons. And, come on, that's obvious...
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initial justifications aside, i still disagree that the concept is worthless, simply because it doesn't work in all scenarios, or a more modern day, "real-world" take, i.e; batman begins.
i mean, if you're all going to be that picky, why not detail how stupid it is that batman exposes half of his face in every adventure? or "brands" all of his weapons / tools / vehicles with his own logo? why he selects boots of a different color from his pants?
they're all "really goddamn stupid ideas." ... and they can all be made appealing to the audience.
the fact is, we've seen good (great!) stories pairing batman with robin -- its not like the task is impossible. its been done time and time again, in the grandest of ways, in the spotlightiest (!) of media! from DKR to BTAS and many of your favorite regular issues of the past 50+ years. a good writer can justify his existence, or any other of the silliest bat-related attributes, with ease.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I mean, what is it with "loners" in comics these days? Wolverine and Batman surround themselves with fucking armies. They simple aren't loners.
On this I agree. I have no problem with Batman and Robin (and Alfred). I have a big problem with Batman and Robin and Alfred and Spoiler and Batgirl and Huntress and Nightwing and Oracle and Azrael and Catwoman and...
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Robin works great in his solo title, even with Batman sometimes (but not as a constant partner) but only the TIm Drake Robin. Dick Grayson looked stupid in those short shorts.
Bow ties are coool.
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I'd like to take issue with the article's stance that no new sidekicks have been introduced recently, unless they're jokes or parodies. Wonder Girl, Speedy, Superboy, Impulse/ Kid Flash, and I thought there was a new Aquagirl or something in the Aquaman books. Hell, even Deathstroke has a kid sidekick now. And as far as Captain America not having a sidekick since Bucky, I have two words for that: Bull-fucking-shit. He surrounds himself with more ham-n-eggers than anybody. Falcon, D-Man, Nomad, Diamondback, Battlestar. Granted, most of these haven't exactly been teenagers, but I think my point is still valid.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
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Grimm said:
No, he's a distraction away from Batman. Instead of the Dark Knight, he becomes Adam West.
Most kids don't even know who Adam West is, which is part of the point, I suppose. Heck, I know who Adam West is, and I sure don't think of him.
Readers aside, though, I still think the idea is rather goofy. It just doesn't make sense to have a 12-year-old sidekick jumping and swinging across rooftops in a bright-colored costume at night.
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Quote:
King Snarf said:
I'd like to take issue with the article's stance that no new sidekicks have been introduced recently, unless they're jokes or parodies. Wonder Girl, Speedy, Superboy, Impulse/ Kid Flash, and I thought there was a new Aquagirl or something in the Aquaman books. Hell, even Deathstroke has a kid sidekick now.
I think the article stated that no new teen sidekicks have been created unless they filled in for an previously created sidekick position. A point that you just pretty much reenforced.
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King Snarf said:
And as far as Captain America not having a sidekick since Bucky, I have two words for that: Bull-fucking-shit. He surrounds himself with more ham-n-eggers than anybody. Falcon, D-Man, Nomad, Diamondback, Battlestar. Granted, most of these haven't exactly been teenagers, but I think my point is still valid.
No, they're not teenagers. They were grown men, which pretty much has no bearing against an arguement of how ridiculous the concept of a teen sidekick is in this day and age.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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I wouldn't call any of those listed as sidekicks. More like partners, a la Hawkwoman. Especially Falcon.
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He was black though, which clearly places him in the subservient position.
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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Like John Stewart! Didn't you hear? He's subversive again! (And to make it clear, Geoff Johns makes him say that out loud instead of showing him being subversive!)
The interesting thing about Superboy and Impulse was that they weren't sidekicks, they were teen heroes by themselves, like Spider-Man. Also, unlike Robin, they weren't "drafted" or chose to be superheroes, the cirscumstances were pretty much forced on them. Shame the new Teen Titans book only waters them down.
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Quote:
Danny said:
He was black though, which clearly places him in the subservient position.
*sigh*
That's my boy!
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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Like John Stewart! Didn't you hear? He's subversive again! (And to make it clear, Geoff Johns makes him say that out loud instead of showing him being subversive!)
The interesting thing about Superboy and Impulse was that they weren't sidekicks, they were teen heroes by themselves, like Spider-Man. Also, unlike Robin, they weren't "drafted" or chose to be superheroes, the cirscumstances were pretty much forced on them. Shame the new Teen Titans book only waters them down.
but now they resemble Marv Wolfman's series and we can have New Wave and Thriller again too.
All from DC's "new" direction.
Bow ties are coool.
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