#33207
2003-05-23 12:04 AM
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Should Roger Clemens enter the Hall of Fame as a member of the NY Yankees or a member of the Boston Red Sox?
This might have been covered before, and if it has, my apologies, but it seems to be a popular debate now, since Clemens is so close to win #300, a stat that(if he wasn't already) cements his place in the HoF.
Personally, I think he should go in with that "B" on his cap, because that's where he became the dominating premiere pitcher that he is. He spent more years there than he has with any other club, and amassed a majority of his wins/ip/k's there.
However, I can kinda see the case for the Yankees, for one (not so)small reason.
That ring.
Still, I think that if he has to go in for a team, it should be Boston. Thoughts?
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#33208
2003-05-23 4:41 AM
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He's already stated that he's going in as a Yankee. He said that at least two years ago. He has no love for Boston. With that said even if he was undecided I would want him to go in as a Yank. ![[woooOOOOoooo!]](graemlins/smilewoo.gif)
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#33209
2003-05-23 4:13 PM
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Unfortunately he doesn't decide that.
He has love for Boston. Just not Boston management.
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#33210
2003-05-23 8:57 PM
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the player doesn't necessarily have control over the decision, but they have MAJOR leeway.
roger wants to go in as a yankee. more specifically, he does NOT want to go in with the red sox, since he's had some pretty bad relationships with them.
wade boggs has a similar scenario.
im not sure what i think about either guy. both were certainly most well known during their red sox years -- at least thats where they grew to fame.
however, and specifically with roger, my personal opinion is that he seems to have had a better fit with his yankees years. in addition to having the all important post game success, one interesting fact that i'd never have guessed, is that jorge posada (yankees catcher) is the guy who has caught the most clemens games (@ 125 games)
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#33211
2003-05-24 1:47 AM
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Just means Boston didn't have a catcher worth putting out there everday.
Roger hasn't said he doesn't want to go in as a Red Sock. He's said he's fine with them, he just prefers to enter as a Yankee. He knows that Boston is and will always be a part of him, he accepts that.
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#33212
2003-05-24 1:01 PM
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Clemens should go in as a Blue Jay and Boggs should go in as a Devil Ray.
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#33213
2003-05-25 2:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Just means Boston didn't have a catcher worth putting out there everday.
maybe.
also means that he's been non-sexually paired longest with a yankee.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Roger hasn't said he doesn't want to go in as a Red Sock.
no, he's said it. a few times, if memory serves. most recently, last year, on the YES network's centerstage show with all-time prick michael kay.
quote:
Originally posted by Kristogar Velo:
Clemens should go in as a Blue Jay and Boggs should go in as a Devil Ray.
and i think boggs has actually said he wants to go in as a ray.
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#33214
2003-05-25 4:03 AM
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I'm a Reds fan. What do I care for Roger? <laugh>
Anyway, I look at it like this: Roger posted the majority of his HoF-worthy numbers while in Boston (3 Cy Youngs, 2 20-strikeout games, etc.). The ring is nice, but a lot of guys have rings who will get into Cooperstown like I will--by paying admission at the door.
And from what Peter Gammons said on ESPNRadio the other day, Roger is ambivalent and sees both sides of the "cap" issue.
--Jim
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#33215
2003-05-25 1:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
no, he's said it. a few times, if memory serves. most recently, last year, on the YES network's centerstage show with all-time prick michael kay.
Well, recently on ESPN he's said he has nothing against Boston, he'd just prefer to be known as a Yankee.
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#33216
2003-05-25 4:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
and i think boggs has actually said he wants to go in as a ray.
I don't remember Boggs saying that, but your boy Canseco had something put into his contract with Tampa regarding this. Like that he'd wear the D-Rays hat at his ceremony were he elected or something.
Boggs did have his number retired by Tampa, though, putting him in pretty elite company with...Wade Boggs.
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#33217
2003-05-25 6:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Jackson:
Anyway, I look at it like this: Roger posted the majority of his HoF-worthy numbers while in Boston (3 Cy Youngs, 2 20-strikeout games, etc.).
i agree.
i think i posted a thread in here once before asking what should be the determining factor in getting a hall of fame cap (i.e; which cap).
should it depend on the inductee's choice? or shoudl it bd based upon how the public / committee best knows the player -- where they played their best HoF days.
im inclined to side with the latter, however... i dunno. if the players make that choice, they're making it for a reason. its THEIR career (right?)
dave winfield had a reason to opt for the padres over the yankees, despite probably being best known as steinbrenner's big right fielder.
quote:
Originally posted by Kristogar Velo:
Canseco had something put into his contract with Tampa regarding this. Like that he'd wear the D-Rays hat at his ceremony were he elected or something.
if jose canseco makes the hall of fame, i might stop being a baseball fan all together.
quote:
Originally posted by Kristogar Velo:
Boggs did have his number retired by Tampa, though, putting him in pretty elite company with...Wade Boggs.
i think thats part of his justification for going in as a ray -- he's unique company (same motivication that helped winfield's decision along).
another reason, id think, would be that boggs got a pretty raw deal from boston, and a similar deal from the yanks.
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#33218
2003-05-26 9:20 AM
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Rob, re:
"dave winfield had a reason to opt for the padres over the yankees, despite probably being best known as steinbrenner's big right fielder."
There's been some scuttlebutt that Winfield went in as a Padre because they Padres either asked him to or paid him to wear their cap, so that they could say there was a Padre in the HoF. Again, according to Gammons, it was reasons like this that prompted the HoF to take the cap-selection decision out of players' hands. You know how MLB doesn't want to taint its precious history (yeah, but they'll elect a former owner as Commish and do not a damned thing about steroid use).
Baseball is so fucked up. There, my first F-bomb on Rob's boards. But at least my Reds are mostly entertaining this year.
And speaking of Reds...should Pete Rose be Hall-eligible?
--Jim
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#33219
2003-05-26 11:56 AM
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Oh, great. Another bsams. ![[yuh huh]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif) ![[nyah hah]](images/icons/tongue.gif) quote:
You know how MLB doesn't want to taint its precious history (yeah, but they'll elect a former owner as Commish and do not a damned thing about steroid use).
Probably the biggest running joke in sports is the notion that baseball's history is so unblemished. Every year we hear about how someone or something(or several of either) is a "black eye to baseball." I don't think baseball has any eyes left to blacken.
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#33220
2003-05-27 3:19 AM
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I find it hilarious. The Hall is already filled with wife beaters, drunks, gamblers and even a few gangsters. What gets David Wells a fine today would have been another page in Babe Ruth's legacy yesterday.
These people are kidding themselves if they think keeping Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson out of the HOF somehow "redeems" baseball.
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#33221
2003-05-26 7:53 PM
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I think it's funny that they won't let Rose in because he 'may' have gambled on the games. If I were him, I'd have $$$ down on wheter or not they were gonna let me, the all time leader in hits, into the hall of fame.
And if Canseco signed a deal that he'd wear a Devil Rays cap into the hall, I'm pretty sure that even he knows that he's not getting in.
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#33222
2003-05-26 11:19 PM
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thats another topic i put up on here somewhere: how gambling on a baseball game is somehow seen as the worst all time crime -- infinitely worse than beating your wife or avoiding your taxes or being a racist or abusing drugs (etc, etc).
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#33223
2003-05-27 1:25 AM
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Yeah, the sports have the most ludicrous set of priorities. Crimes that result in jail time in the "real world"(like drug use) result in petty fines or substance abuse counseling in the sporting world.
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#33224
2003-05-27 7:54 AM
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Clearly, as a lifelong Reds fan, I would like to see Pete enshrined because his onfield accomplishments merit nothing less than the Hall of Fame. And yes, I'm not squeamish about his offield behavior and its less-than-savory nature. I recognize that Pete is not the most upstanding citizen. But somebody got all those hits, somebody played in more winning games than any other player, somebody hit safely in 44 straight games in 1978, somebody was an all-star at 4 different positions, somebody was NL MVP in 1973, and somebody was World Series MVP in 1975.
But I would be the last man to hire Pete to manage my ballclub. He wasn't a great manager. He wasn't an awful manager either. But he meant enough to the game in the 60s, 70s, and 80s that he deserves enshrinement while he's alive. Gambling may be baseball's greatest sin, but baseball is played for fans, and fans seem to want Pete to have his day in Cooperstown.
--Jim
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#33225
2003-06-17 8:36 PM
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clemens wants in as a yankee. bad.baseball will probably say "tough luck"i've always been kinda torn on this issue, player's choice vs. hall's choice. but, after reading that second article, i kinda think im more inclined to go with the hall's choice, since its more of a historical document, rather than a reward.
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#33226
2003-06-19 7:51 PM
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I agree it should be the halls choice. It's their place, ya know.
I think Rog is a being a child about the whole thing.
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#33227
2003-06-20 12:44 AM
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Maybe it's just me, but I think this is the stupidest debate in baseball today.
I mean the Hall is for honoring great players, not teams. As far as what franchise represents the player, I just don't believe it should play into it. Let the team honor Clemens at Yankee Stadium, and let the Hall honor the individual player at Cooperstown, and fuck the hat!
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#33228
2003-06-25 11:43 AM
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I'm a huge Yankees fan and think Roger Clemens is the best pitcher of our generation but I still see him as a Red Sox. Even though Roger has had some historic moments with the Yanks, his reputation was forged in Boston. I think it's kind of silly for Roger to say that he will boycott the Hall of Fame if he can't go in as a Yankee. That might be what Steinbrenner wants to hear but no player no matter how good he is should not treat the Hall of Fame like it's not an honor.
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#33229
2003-06-28 1:01 AM
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He wouldn't be where he is if it wasn't for the Sox. They're the ones who invested in him, even if he did leave on not so great terms. And everyone remembers him as a member of the Red Sox anyways.
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