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 Not to copy Rob's Character 2.0, this is a reboot. Taking into account everything ever written about Batman, reboot his universe. You can include anyone who has ever been a part of his world, or you can leave them out. For example, maybe Jason Todd wasn't killed. Or maybe Bruce Wayne never took in Dick Grayson, so there never was a Robin. You can't change what brought Batman into being, only reshape the world he lives in. You can replace key players now with characters you would rather see in their place, or you can remove them entirely. Maybe Gordon is still police commisioner. Perhaps the Joker killed Barbara Gordon. There is a lot of material to sift through. Go on, reboot the Batverse into the world you always wanted it to be. Be as detailed as you want. If you wouldn't change anything, please tell us why. If this becomes a popular topic, we can move on to other major characters in the future.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
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In my Batverse, there is no Superman, no Justice League, no super-powered crimefighters or criminals. There are criminals with technology that gives them extra abilities, but closer to the realms of possibility than usually seen in comics. In this world, the Batman as urban myth might actually work, whereas in a world filled with superhumans and aliens there's really no point in trying to pretend that a "Bat-Man" is just a rumour. The Batverse needs to be fully separated from the DC Universe.
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I like that.
I'm going to pull out things like that as we continue this discussion, to see what kind of Batverse we can come up with.
Thing is, I do think Batman can exist in a world with superheroes. I don't think it's possible for Batman to be an urban myth to the people who actually live in Gotham. I think they would know he does exist, even though he has managed to keep all images out of the paper and off of the news cameras. The criminals in Gotham know he is real. But, those outside of Gotham, they don't believe in "ghosts and goblins." They think it's just something the police made up to frighten the locals and keep the criminal population under some semblance of control in a crowded, over populated, crime ridden city. I don't see Batman going around the world on grand adventures with the Justice League. I see him only interested in his city. If he is involved at all with other superheroes, it is only behind the scenes, and only as a way to keep his rogues out of their cities, and their rogues out of his. When people speak of Gotham, and someone mentions the Batman, outsiders laugh. They think Gothamites are crazy, the civilians, and the criminals who actually believe in the farce that the police, in particular Commissioner Gordon, has created. That is how I see the urban myth actually working in a world with other heroes.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
But, those outside of Gotham, they don't believe in "ghosts and goblins."
This makes no sense to me in the context of the DCU. Anyone living in the DCU would know that "ghosts and goblins", and aliens, and superhumans, and giant robots, et cetera, DO exist. Hell, the DCU's Earth has been invaded by extraterrestrials more times than I care to remember. Why would the Batman be so unbelievable? Even in OUR world the general public isn't that skeptical. Look at how many people believe in conspiracies and UFOs and all kinds of things without ever having looked at hard evidence and with an objective viewpoint.
That's the sticking point.
Tell me, what is the benefit to the character of Batman by having the Batverse as part of the DCU?
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Because Batman's the Batman dude. Most of the major-league villains dislike his presence because he has a rep of dealing with major-league heroes better than they could. That's Batman's uniquity in the DCU--That goes the same for his rogues gallery. No matter how powerful those superhumans (or aliens) are, bats shows that we still have enough power ourselves to eclipse them. That's the whole Batman claim to fame--And it's well deserved.
I'd reboot the Batverse from the end of NML. Cuz', like I always say, that was the best that the Bat-books ever got (not counting individual issues):
After the quake, Batman decides never to return to the Justice League.
Joker finishes Oracle off.
Huntress dies.
Tim and Stephanie either leave or die.
Cassandra becomes Batman's more frequent partner (only when he really needs her) and there's a lot more issues covering him teaching her stuff. So she doesn't learn to talk simply through some psychic deus ex machina.
Batman's relationship with Superman, and pretty much all other superheroes, gets more and more unsteady with every interaction they make.
I actually kind of liked the concept behind War Games, but the story was just awful. I wouldn't mind seeing the idea played out again, but only with a major overhaul.
All I can think of for now.
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The Time Trust said:
Why would the Batman be so unbelievable? Even in OUR world the general public isn't that skeptical. Look at how many people believe in conspiracies and UFOs and all kinds of things without ever having looked at hard evidence and with an objective viewpoint.
How many people in the mainstream believe in UFOs? How many people in the mainstream believe in ghosts? Sure, there are aliens in the DCU, so there is no scepticism there. But, just because people know there are aliens that doesn't mean they believe in a Bat-Man in Gotham city who has never been caught on camera, or recorded by tape. In fact, there is no evidence at all of his existance outside of word of mouth and a spotlight. People don't want to believe what they can't explain. Batman can't be explained. There is no proof. So they buy that he's just a ghost story. Along with that comes fan clubs all over the world dedicated to whatever this Bat-Man is that the criminals in Gotham are so afraid of. He's got a cult following, just like the UFOs of the real world.
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The Time Trust said:
Tell me, what is the benefit to the character of Batman by having the Batverse as part of the DCU?
Contrast. Having him there to interact with superpowered beings gives us someone we can aspire to be like. He is the best a regular man can be. He is the human element.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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In my Bat-verse, Batman would never say "I'm the God damn Batman".
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Why would the Batman be so unbelievable? Even in OUR world the general public isn't that skeptical. Look at how many people believe in conspiracies and UFOs and all kinds of things without ever having looked at hard evidence and with an objective viewpoint.
How many people in the mainstream believe in UFOs? How many people in the mainstream believe in ghosts? Sure, there are aliens in the DCU, so there is no scepticism there. But, just because people know there are aliens that doesn't mean they believe in a Bat-Man in Gotham city who has never been caught on camera, or recorded by tape. In fact, there is no evidence at all of his existance outside of word of mouth and a spotlight. People don't want to believe what they can't explain. Batman can't be explained. There is no proof. So they buy that he's just a ghost story. Along with that comes fan clubs all over the world dedicated to whatever this Bat-Man is that the criminals in Gotham are so afraid of. He's got a cult following, just like the UFOs of the real world.
I repeat the same argument, because it hasn't really been addressed: Real aliens no longer shock people in the DCU. Why would a "Bat-Man"?
I won't even get into the idea that there is "no proof" of the Batman's existence in this day and age. I grant you that there may be insufficient "proof" of his existence (and in scientific terms it's impossible to "prove" anything, which is why that word is never used), but there is always going to be evidence and support, no matter how diligent the Bat-Man is.
Quote:
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Tell me, what is the benefit to the character of Batman by having the Batverse as part of the DCU?
Contrast. Having him there to interact with superpowered beings gives us someone we can aspire to be like. He is the best a regular man can be. He is the human element.
That's a benefit to the reader, sure. But Batman as a character doesn't need to be part of any DCU or interact with superhumans to stand for "the best a regular man can be". Sorry, but I don't buy it.
I'm still waiting to hear how it benefits the character. And I'm arguing these points not because I like to argue but because I'm waiting for a stronger argument before I'm willing to concede any points. Don't let me down.
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
That's a benefit to the reader, sure. But Batman as a character doesn't need to be part of any DCU or interact with superhumans to stand for "the best a regular man can be". Sorry, but I don't buy it.
I'm still waiting to hear how it benefits the character. And I'm arguing these points not because I like to argue but because I'm waiting for a stronger argument before I'm willing to concede any points. Don't let me down.
As a character who bases his entire theme on fear, would it not benefit his pseudo-image (as an urban legend of course) for it to be spoken of that he was able to beat people like Superman or Wonder Woman in a fight? Your everage Joe of the DC universe don't actually know the capability of the Batman. What they do know, however, is that he can stand toe to toe with superhumans whom they couldn't even imagine facing down.
The entire DC universe being around Batman also brings up interesting controveresy. Like a pro/con essay on acceptance of superhumans: They are a definite threat to the security of the people who can't match their strength....But then there's Batman, who also can't match their strength, but defeats them anyway. How would one look at the subject of the ambivalence between mutants/metas and normies after that comparison?
Last edited by Pariah; 2005-11-10 7:12 AM.
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I'm not sure, I'm not all that big of a Batman fan.
However, if you asked me to reboot the JSA, Green Lantern or the Flash. I'd sure do it.
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<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Because Batman's the Batman dude. Most of the major-league villains dislike his presence because he has a rep of dealing with major-league heroes better than they could. That's Batman's uniquity in the DCU--That goes the same for his rogues gallery. No matter how powerful those superhumans (or aliens) are, bats shows that we still have enough power ourselves to eclipse them. That's the whole Batman claim to fame--And it's well deserved.
I'd reboot the Batverse from the end of NML. Cuz', like I always say, that was the best that the Bat-books ever got (not counting individual issues):
After the quake, Batman decides never to return to the Justice League.
Joker finishes Oracle off.
Huntress dies.
Tim and Stephanie either leave or die.
Cassandra becomes Batman's more frequent partner (only when he really needs her) and there's a lot more issues covering him teaching her stuff. So she doesn't learn to talk simply through some psychic deus ex machina.
Batman's relationship with Superman, and pretty much all other superheroes, gets more and more unsteady with every interaction they make.
I actually kind of liked the concept behind War Games, but the story was just awful. I wouldn't mind seeing the idea played out again, but only with a major overhaul.
All I can think of for now.
Amen. Especially the WarGames re-do. Such a sound premise, executed so awfully. I agree with all except Batgirl. She suited the role of 'dark partner' for him. No chipper kids in green tights to lighten his mood. Theres something appealing about Bruce, Dick and Tim in the same city though. I wouldnt neccaseraly like to see it happen, but the three of them working together kind of gels them as a family. I've felt this way ever since the early Nightwing issue where he just teams up and talks to tim about everything bat-related... Oh, but Nightwing couldnt be a possibly homosexual, wuss....
NML was the pinnacle for me, especially the first trade that focussed more on the actual gang war and turbulence going on in the abandonned city [plus that awesome ending to the Scarface fiasco where he convinces everyone he's unstoppable]. This type of grounded story-telling is what I really love from Batman. Gang wars, corruption, psychopaths, and one very human man trying to stop it all
I actually did come up with this idea of a re-boot over a month ago. I just came up with it in my head while walking home one day. Its basically just toned down re-imaginings of the villains and some basic, very grounded, plot ideas. Like the Government realising that Arkham is a huge lyability and launching a Black Ops squad to blow it up, and Batman meeting a GCPD officer who cant stand the corruption and becomes "Nightwing". His name may ring a few bells. They're more friends than a disturbing Father/Child situation as it is now
I'll get my sheet of paper sometime and run over the basics
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Its me and Paris Hilton driving around in a car.... Now I know what you're thinking, but she's in the boot!"
"So you see, 'Ring around the Rosey' refers to the horrible symptoms of a terrifying disease, a disease which.....a disease which....ZIM! Theres a Pigeon on you're head. You have 'Head Pigeons'. get to the Nurse before they spread to the other children."
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Thing is, I do think Batman can exist in a world with superheroes. I don't think it's possible for Batman to be an urban myth to the people who actually live in Gotham. I think they would know he does exist, even though he has managed to keep all images out of the paper and off of the news cameras. The criminals in Gotham know he is real. But, those outside of Gotham, they don't believe in "ghosts and goblins." They think it's just something the police made up to frighten the locals and keep the criminal population under some semblance of control in a crowded, over populated, crime ridden city. I don't see Batman going around the world on grand adventures with the Justice League. I see him only interested in his city. If he is involved at all with other superheroes, it is only behind the scenes, and only as a way to keep his rogues out of their cities, and their rogues out of his. When people speak of Gotham, and someone mentions the Batman, outsiders laugh. They think Gothamites are crazy, the civilians, and the criminals who actually believe in the farce that the police, in particular Commissioner Gordon, has created. That is how I see the urban myth actually working in a world with other heroes.
My main problem is the same as Time Trusts, except its not just Aliens. Demons have over-run cities a few times [a Vaughn written JLA annual from the latest run], and even Rogue Angels have attacked cities in force a few times. I can still see your point 'Wing, one Urban legend in a World of Aliens, Demons and Spirits of Vengeance wouldnt make it true in the Publics eyes, but in a world like the DCU where they couldnt be bombarded with questionable alien sightings on TV, and other sources of media that desensitise us to the unknown [Its TV that makes makes everyone laugh at the thought of aliens], and Urban legend wouldnt be that hard to Believe, and lets face it, they really couldnt have the same TV as us when they know most super-natural and mythical things actually do exist from first-hand experience
In a world of Super-humans like Superman you always have to question Batmans role. Superman should have cleaned the World up a hundred times over, sweeping through cities at the speed of light, apprehending all wanted criminals, and imprisoning them, then many syndicates and bank-robbers would have to question their line of work
Superman would save Batman even if he didnt want him to, so even if Batman was at deaths door from an attack by the Joker, Superman should be able to hear and get there within 2 seconds [Flash takes 7 to get around the World and Gotham is on the same continent as Metropolis], so it kind of takes all believibility away from Bruces patheticly doomed war on crime
"Now TV's all about format these days isn't it, and I've got a new type for you right here.
Its me and Paris Hilton driving around in a car.... Now I know what you're thinking, but she's in the boot!"
"So you see, 'Ring around the Rosey' refers to the horrible symptoms of a terrifying disease, a disease which.....a disease which....ZIM! Theres a Pigeon on you're head. You have 'Head Pigeons'. get to the Nurse before they spread to the other children."
"Get off my lawn Cookie Beast!"
--Invader Zim
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Quote:
Flameswordsman said:
I agree with all except Batgirl. She suited the role of 'dark partner' for him. No chipper kids in green tights to lighten his mood.
"Frequent" doesn't necessarily mean "constantly". I gues I should have used "often". The point is, I want a series of issues where he actually teaches her stuff. Like how to talk, be a detective, and generally undo what Cain did. There were a couple issues like these in the past, but they weren't very good.
And speaking of parnters:
I also want LotDK to be about Batman and Batman alone. No team ups, no family--Just Batman.
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