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Is anyone else depressed about Winick taking over Batman after Azzarello?
Truly a bad time to be a Batman fan.
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FUCK!!!
And I don't even read Bat books.
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I also hate the fact that all the really horrible stories are getting all the great art. Meaning that sales are insured even if the story sucks. For NEW readers and IDIOT readers alike. ![[...rassamnfrackin...]](graemlins/grumble01.gif)
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I thought Loeb and Lee were coming back after Azzarelo? Winick....:shudder:
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He can't be any worse than Devin Grayson, or Doug Moench for that matter.
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No matter who wrote for Batman you could always say they would do a better job than Larry Hama did.
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Maybe we'll have the issue of Bat-Man's gay feelings for Alfred and Robin resolved now.
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterJLA:
He can't be any worse than Devin Grayson, or Doug Moench for that matter.
Or Azz for that matter.
Of course, Moench was responsible for one of my favorite Bat scenes ever. The issue where Batman just stared at the guy while he was getting ready in the bathroom and he nearly shit himself without Bats saying a word. that was priceless.
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Yeah, okay, Azz's Batman didn't seem like Batman, but lets give him another issue or two. If by then his Batman is making suggestive remarks at hookers while grabbing his bat-crotch, then crucify him.
anyways, I just checked out DC's mainpage and saw nothing confirming this. where'd you hear it from KMT?
[ 11-02-2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Stupid Dogg ]
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Damn. I can't believe it. I am going to be collecting Adventures of Superman, but not Batman. I never thought I would see the day. ![[no no no]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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No way. NO WAY!
This can't be real. First Ron Marz returning, now this....?!?!?
I'm going to explode...
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awesome! dude, my eyes just melted onto my cheeks! bitchin!
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I was pissed off when Azz and Risso put '100 Bullets' on the back burner so that they could work on Batman. Two months is a long time to wait between issues especially since '100 Bullets' will apparently run to 100 issues.
I was even more pissed off when I flicked through #620 in the comic shop, because it looked to me like both writer and artist were creating on autopilot.
Are Azz & Risso off Batman after Broken City concludes?
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![[whaaaa!]](eek01.gif) WHAT???WINICK ON BATMAN??? Say it ain't so! His dialogue is dull, his stories aren't exciting in the least, and I don't like the way he handles action sequences... Is this a limited guest sotry thingie like Loeb was, or is he in for the duration??
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All the horrific details can be found at newsarama.
Winick will write a five-issue arc that will follow Azzarello's Broken City. According to Winick the plan for now is to turn Batman into a LOTDK style book (he doesn't use that exact phrase) which would feature all the biggest names in comics telling "their" Batman story.
No idea what this means for Legends, which has been my favorite Bat book for a long time now, but it can't be good.
Sad news all around.
They made Rucka write an endless series of crossovers and saddled him with one second-rate artist after another on Tec until he finally had enough and quit.
They did the exact same thing to poor Ed Brubaker, probably the best Batman writer of the last 20 years, if not all time. Who else thinks that Brubaker would have stayed on forever if they'd made Sean Phillips the regular artist on Tec? Wouldn't do it though.
They replaced Devin Grayson, who wasn't all that great on Gotham Knights, with Scott Beatty, who is just downright unreadable. Makes Larry Hama look like Alan Moore.
The quality of the writing has been on a steady downward spiral since July of 2002.
Loeb's run was so awful on so many levels. If the rest of Azzarello's run reads anything like the first issue, it'll be even worse than Hush. And now Winick? What the hell are Schreck and Didio thinking?
They replaced Brubaker with a guy who has published exactly one more comic than I have because he really likes Batman as a character. Jesus fucking Christ. How goddamn insane is that?
They replaced Grayson with Beatty, and now they're replacing Beatty with the writer from Harley Quinn? Harley fucking Quinn? It sells less than some self-published independent stuff? Good God.
What the hell is going on?
And now Winick.
If you told me they were bringing Hitler aboard for a 5-issue run, I would been all like, "Give the guy a chance. Sure he's genocidal meglomaniac with delusions of grandeur bent on world conquest, but maybe he has a good Joker story in him somewhere."
But Winick? I feel like someone close to me just died. Granted I'll be saving $10 a month but I'm gonna miss Batman.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ultimate Jaburg53:
No matter who wrote for Batman you could always say they would do a better job than Larry Hama did.
Bwahahaahaha!!!!!!!!!!
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Fuck them. I'm done with Batman. Schreck can kiss my ass..so can Didio. All they are doing is buying up talent and then giving the tools of the group big gigs and then putting them on the wrong books.
batman Adventures will be the only Bat book I buy for the next year for sure.
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quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
They made Rucka write an endless series of crossovers and saddled him with one second-rate artist after another on Tec until he finally had enough and quit.
Shawn Martinbrough wasn't a "second-rate" artist....and the coloring scheme they had was great, in my opinion.
quote:
They did the exact same thing to poor Ed Brubaker, probably the best Batman writer of the last 20 years, if not all time.
Scott McDaniel was Brubaker's regular artist for nealy the entire time(on Batman, dunno about 'Tec). Is he a second rate artist?!?
I thought his run was good....I don't know if I'd say the best Batman writer of the last 20 years....certainly not of all time. I'd say he's top 5 for the last decade(and a half).
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
They made Rucka write an endless series of crossovers and saddled him with one second-rate artist after another on Tec until he finally had enough and quit.
Shawn Martinbrough wasn't a "second-rate" artist....and the coloring scheme they had was great, in my opinion.
I wasn't referring to Martinbrough. His stuff was great, as was the color scheme.
But Martinbrough was in and out, and Rucka was less than satisfied with the people they had filling in.
In an interview right before he left the Bat books, Rucka said, and I'm paraphrasing, that sometimes he would get the finished pages and had no idea what he was looking at. He'd ask for stuff to be redrawn and he'd be told "tough shit, the books need to go out on time."
At the end of his run Rucka seemed way burnt out.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
They did the exact same thing to poor Ed Brubaker, probably the best Batman writer of the last 20 years, if not all time.
Scott McDaniel was Brubaker's regular artist for nealy the entire time(on Batman, dunno about 'Tec). Is he a second rate artist?!?
I thought his run was good....I don't know if I'd say the best Batman writer of the last 20 years....certainly not of all time. I'd say he's top 5 for the last decade(and a half). [/QB]
I can't think of anyone who's had a better extended run on Batman (I'm talking his run the main book here, not Tec) ever. I have everything post-Crisis and nothing else even comes close.
I loved McDaniel too.
The art on Brubaker's Tec run was decidedly second rate, specifically Tommy Castillo's stuff. Castillo just wasn't ready but Schreck gave him the job, and the book suffered as a result.
I personally liked his stuff the first three issues, but the people on the Bat boards just ripped him to shreds.
The last three issues of Dead Reckoning were a disaster too. The writing went into the tank, possibly because Brubaker was stretching a 3-issue story to six so it would be TPB friendly. And the art was horrible, particularly on the last issue.
Brubaker was all excited at the prospect of working with Ryan Sook. He was talking up his plans for Tec 800. Then all of a sudden Sook can't find the time to work on a monthly and Brubaker is gone.
Who knows who Schreck was planning on as regular artist. Maybe it was Pete Woods. Maybe it wasn't. With the way Schreck works it could've been just some schmuck who'd never drawn anything but had seen an episode of the animated series and once owned a Batman comic.
Sad thing is, I would put Brubaker and Rucka one-two on the all-time best Batman writer list. From the end of No Man's Land til last July they were cranking out the best-written Batman comics I've ever seen. Batman and Tec were never better than during that 1999-2002 period.
Now both writers are gone and the Bat books suck donkey balls.
I was able to get through Jeph Loeb's awful Hush run by telling myself that Azzarello was coming and I've never heard anyone say anything bad about 100 Bullets. Then Azzarello lays a great big steaming turd on his first issue and I'm thinking, "OK, only five more months and Lapham will be writing Batman."
Now it's five more months til Winick, and then five more months til who knows. Loeb still has to come back for another poorly conceived, poorly plotted, poorly written story that will take six months to tell and go absolutely nowhere.
Do the math. Hush (12 months) + Broken City (6 months) + whatever garbage Winick writes (5 months) + Hush 2 (6 months) = me being absolutely sick to my stomach because I have a choice of dropping the books or reading 29 months of very bad Batman stories.
Fuck you Schreck.
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Denny O'Neil's run on Batman was better than Brubaker's, in my opinion. Chuck Dixon(before he started writing every other book in the DC Universe and burned himself out) also did some pretty good stuff.
Rucka started out really well on 'Tec, but the last half of his term was absolutely terrible. The whole Sasha thing just left a bad taste in my mouth, and since that was my last memory of him on the book, it's hard for me to look back and think fondly of him. Bad art or not, it was his writing that drove that book into the ground.
Brubaker was more consistent. I knew what to expect with him, and he rarely dissapointed. He didn't provide quite as many memorable moments on the book as past writers, but it was still enjoyable. If he had an arc like Knightfall, something that could define his time on the book, I might put him on the same level you do.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ultimate Jaburg53:
No matter who wrote for Batman you could always say they would do a better job than Larry Hama did.
I couldnt have said it better
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Denny O'Neil's run on Batman was better than Brubaker's, in my opinion.
I'll tell you why I think Denny O'Neil is great: if you're not old enough to have been reading his stuff in the early 70s when it came out, you can read it now, with no nostalgic attachment, and think it's absolutely brilliant.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Chuck Dixon(before he started writing every other book in the DC Universe and burned himself out) also did some pretty good stuff.
Dixon doesn't make the cut as far as I'm concerned. He's solid. I don't know if I've ever read a really bad Chuck Dixon story but I don't think I've ever read a great one either.
He also benefitted from a lack of competition. All he had to do was be better than Moench and Grant. And I think most people would say that Grant was the best of three.
He never wrote a story as good as Prey. And he never created a villain with the lasting appeal of the Ventriloquist.
His biggest contribution to the Batman mythos would likely be Bane. And don't get me wrong, I love Knightfall, but c'mon. ... Bane hasn't had one iota of cool attached to him since Jean Paul beat the crap out of him. Now he's just a pussy.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Rucka started out really well on 'Tec, but the last half of his term was absolutely terrible. The whole Sasha thing just left a bad taste in my mouth, and since that was my last memory of him on the book, it's hard for me to look back and think fondly of him. Bad art or not, it was his writing that drove that book into the ground.
I agree that Rucka's stuff was pretty bad at the end.
But you can't lay the blame entirely on him.
Schreck deserves a shitload of credit for tanking the Bat books, Tec included.
He should have found Rucka an artist he was happy with. He shouldn't have forced Rucka and Brubaker to write crossover after crossover.
Jeph Loeb doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with those two. Why does he get an uniterrupted 12-issue run to tell his pointless story while Rucka and Brubaker have to work alien invasions into theirs?
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Brubaker was more consistent. I knew what to expect with him, and he rarely dissapointed. He didn't provide quite as many memorable moments on the book as past writers, but it was still enjoyable. If he had an arc like Knightfall, something that could define his time on the book, I might put him on the same level you do.
But Brubaker was never given that opportunity. DC never hyped any of his stories. He was the No. 2 guy behind Rucka and the No. 2 guy behind Loeb.
I can't think of another writer that did more with less though.
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I always thought Dixon's work was better on the supporting characters than Batman himself. there seemed to be a lack of substance to the character during that period.
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I think Mike Barr gets a bad rap because of Year 2..other than that i really enjoyed his Detective and outsiders work.
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quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
Dixon doesn't make the cut as far as I'm concerned. He's solid. I don't know if I've ever read a really bad Chuck Dixon story but I don't think I've ever read a great one either.
I thought Knightfall was pretty good, if not great.
quote:
He also benefitted from a lack of competition. All he had to do was be better than Moench and Grant. And I think most people would say that Grant was the best of three.
Grant certainly had his moments, too, but I preferred Dixon(in his prime). I never really cared much for Moench.
quote:
His biggest contribution to the Batman mythos would likely be Bane. And don't get me wrong, I love Knightfall, but c'mon. ... Bane hasn't had one iota of cool attached to him since Jean Paul beat the crap out of him. Now he's just a pussy.
I think what really killed Bane as a character was the utterly pathetic movie Schumacher movie rendition.
I still really liked Knightfall, though.
quote:
He should have found Rucka an artist he was happy with. He shouldn't have forced Rucka and Brubaker to write crossover after crossover.
I agree that the crossovers hurt the Batbooks as a whole. They aren't like the Superman books, in that they each have their own unique identity, exploring different aspects of the Batman mythos and the Bat-family. For whatever reason, Shreck doesn't seem to care about that.
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Winnick?
Time to cancel my subscription.
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
batman Adventures will be the only Bat book I buy for the next year for sure.
They really ought to let Ty Templeton write the regular bat book. His stories and characterization are pitch perfect Batman, on a par with O'Neil in his 1970s prime.
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Lessee... I agree that Ty should get a shot at a main Bat-book. I agree that no one can be worse than Moench and Hama. But I disagreee about... ... Judd. I say give him a chance. Sure, it pisses me off they're we're getting another goddamn single arc (might as well be LOTDK). But, I think there's a new Winick in town. Look at Outsiders, Green Arrow, and Exiles. His new maxi - Caper. His vertigo mini that just ended. They are are works that are up there in quality. Not the best of course, but still pretty damn good. I'm going to give Judd a chance with his arc. Of course, not many first-issues to an arc could be worse than Azz's 620...
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Exiles was crap, and if the reviews the first issue got are any indication, so was the Outsiders. I didn't bother to read his Green Arrow.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I thought Knightfall was pretty good, if not great.
The Knights trilogy always struck me as Denny O'Neil's baby. I know O'Neil didn't write the majority of the stories but. ...
And up until Knightsend I thought Moench's contributuions were every bit as good as Dixon's. Grant, who I've always considered vastly overrated -- which is not to say he isn't good, he just isn't as good as people make him out to be -- was the only one of the three whose stories were consistently disappointing.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Grant certainly had his moments, too, but I preferred Dixon(in his prime). I never really cared much for Moench.
I'd say Prey is one of the 10 best Batman stories ever written. You read Prey, and even Terror, and then you read the stuff Moench was producing for Batman and it's hard to believe they're written by the same guy.
Kelley Jones didn't help matters anyway.
I agree with Steve T. when he says that Dixon's work was better on the supporting characters.
And it's not like I dislike his stuff. I just don't think he's as good a writer as Brubaker or Rucka. Based on his consistency I'd certainly rank him higher than Moench or Grant.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I think what really killed Bane as a character was the utterly pathetic movie Schumacher movie rendition.
Can't even get through the opening sequence of Batman and Robin.
I don't know what it is about Bane. Even when he was breaking Batman in half, he was still pretty lame. Is there any doubt that Bruce wouldn't have dispatched Bane in under 10 seconds if Bane hadn't thrown the entire rogues gallery at him and worn him down first?
And I know that shows he's smart, but it also shows him to be a pussy. I mean, he has superhuman strength, but he can't take Batman unless Batman's on the verge of a total emotional and physical breakdown.
And he's so visually uninteresting.
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And you know what's really frustrating?
It's that a total douchebag (Winick) and a guy whose written one more comic than me (Andersen Gabrych) are working on Batman when I can think of like five to 10 people off the top of my head that are better qualified.
The Gabrych thing is just a fucking joke.
"I first met Andersen at a friend's birthday party,” Batman Group Editor Bob Schreck told Newsarama. “He’s an avid comics reader and absolutely loves the medium."
Hey! Me too! Can I write JLA? Fuck you Schreck.
And I'll be the first to say that I hope this guy fucking rocks and he's ten times better than Brubaker and Rucka and anyone else who's ever written Batman. But c'mon. ...
Chances are this is Tommy Castillo II.
And would Schreck really have had to twist Dwayne McDuffie's leg to get him to take over Batman or Tec? Here's a guy whose written two great Batman stories, written all the best episodes of Justice League -- he's a known commodity. And on top of that, he's damn good.
What about Jon Ostrander? John Francis Moore? Joe Casey? All three have proven they can write Batman.
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I don't know Moore, and keep Casey far away from Batman.
Ostrander, on the other hand, is proven. And how about Brad Meltzer? His six issues of GA are better than anyone else's on that title. This guy can write, and he deserves a chance. He should still be writing GA.
Here is something I posted on the DCMB's: Pick one/Leave one thread. It's actually a combo of several different posts:
The reason Batman seems so at ease flirting with prostitutes will be explained in the soon to be released Batman: Broken City Secret Files #1:
"When Bruce was a child, before his parents' murders, he spent much of his time helping his mother run the true source of the Wayne Foundation's fortune, Martha's Escort Service. Dr. Wayne was very busy at the hospital, so Martha would take Bruce with her to the whore house, where one or more of the girls would spend time playing with young Bruce while his mother tended to the books. And where was Alfred during this time? Alfred harbored deep feelings for Mrs. Wayne, but he would not act on them. To that end, he took his personal time in one of the rooms with a girl, pretending she was Martha, and relieving himself of all of the tension that had built up from the previous day."
or
"As Bruce began his studies of various forms of martial arts, he quickly discovered that, while he needed to learn how to combat evil, he also needed a way to remember how wonderful good people could be. To that end, everywhere he went, he would spend one night of intense passion at one of the local whore houses, learning everything a man and woman could do together. These have become the fondest memories of his travels, and his life before Batman. This may also explain why he has such strong feelings for Selina Kyle, as she herself is a former prostitute."
or
Let's face it, he ain't gettin any from Selina, and after being celebate for so long, and then spending all those nights with her, well, you try restraining yourself.
or
Dick bet him 1 million dollars that he wouldn't be able to get laid by one, as Batman, if he tried.
or
It's really Dick, the man whore, desperate to get laid following his breakup with Babs.
or
It's really Superman, who likes to dress up like Batman and hit on girls whenever Lois is out of town.
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quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
The Gabrych thing is just a fucking joke.
"I first met Andersen at a friend's birthday party,” Batman Group Editor Bob Schreck told Newsarama. “He’s an avid comics reader and absolutely loves the medium."
Hey! Me too! Can I write JLA? Fuck you Schreck.
Egads, I didn't hear about that. That is awful....
Maybe this guy has incriminating photos of Schreck stored away. Who knows.
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quote:
Originally posted by PenWing:
I don't know Moore, and keep Casey far away from Batman.
Did you read Casey's Tenses?
It was as good, if not better than, any Batman book written in 2003. I'm talking both story and art. I'd be thrilled to see Casey and Cully Hammer as regulars after Tenses.
Unfortunately, Casey has said he won't be doing anything Batman for the forseeable future.
Moore wrote Batman: Family and I think he wrote a couple of LOTDK arcs. I think he did Hothouse, which was a Poison Ivy story.
Family was kind of unsatisfying because the ending was so rushed. It would have been great as an ongoing story in Gotham Knights though.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 36
25+ posts
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25+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 36 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Egads, I didn't hear about that. That is awful....
Some more frightening quotes from the Newsarama article.
Newsarama - Detective Gets A New Team
Schreck: "Almost a year later he called and made an inquiry as to how he might get into writing comics and I took a chance and read his work. He's an actor and has also written a few plays.
"Putting it bluntly, I think I know a good writer when I read their work. I better, it's my job. He's already written an issue of Batgirl, issue #38, and several other as yet, unpublished books for us. Generally, I run work by Matt Idelson and Michael Wright to double check me on my sanity."
Matt Idelson: "He’s very new to the field – he’s written some stuff for Bob and me, and he’s shaping up to be really, really good. In putting him on Detective, we just wanted to, for a change, have a writer start out, not on some ancillary book where we’d build him up, but put him where people are going to come in, so readers can see what he’s able to do from the very start"
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
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10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
I disliked Tenses, and I definitely dislike Casey. I didn't know the background of it(I assume it's suppose to be a year one-esque story, otherwise his characterization of Bruce is way off), and it wasn't explained very well in the story, so that hurt it. I was dissapointed that he took an interesting character idea for a villain and basically turned it into another cliche batvillain(completely insane, no other motivation for their actions other than being insane).
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