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No he doesn't, MOTA. King Krypton just wants Superman to not suck.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
No he doesn't, MOTA. King Krypton just wants Superman to not suck.
Forget it, dude. I've tried telling him that COUNTLESS times, and he still insists on claiming that I want things to go all the way back to the '60s. He wants to slander me any way he can and pervert everything I say out of context, so we might as well let him. After all, he's still getting what he wants.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
No he doesn't, MOTA. King Krypton just wants Superman to not suck.
The problem is that for him for Superman not to suck he has to be less human and thus less interesting.
He wants a Superman that goes through the motions of having super powers and confronting radical and uber imaginary scenarions, completely disregarding the characters humanity.
He sees that aspect of the character as a weakness, which is why he hates anything that concentrates on that and why he wishes for angles like what Moore did with Supreme to be applied to the character.
King would rather have a somber Superman that separates himself from humanity over one that's happy that while his people died he got to live thanks to his father's sacrifice.
His ideal Superman is one that is more Super than man even though he claims that he wants a balance.
I've told him many times of stories with that balance and he prefers to insult me instead of actually talk about it, which is why I insult him back...
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I think what MOTA is trying to say then, is that Superman WAS good in the 60s, because when you say you want the Superman books to be good, he says you want them to be like they were in the 60s. I've figured it out! Heh.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
I think what MOTA is trying to say then, is that Superman WAS good in the 60s, because when you say you want the Superman books to be good, he says you want them to be like they were in the 60s. I've figured it out! Heh.
Lol.
No, I'm saying that he wants them to be simplistic and aimed at the lowest commun denominator of the readership, the simple minded.
I'm saying that he would rather Superman be defined by his costume that by his origin (instead of being raised a human King would rather Superman would just spend 21 out of 22 pages in full costume,doing Super stuff like he used to).
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He never said that and you know it.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
He never said that and you know it.
He said:
'I want Superman to be just like Moore's Supreme'
Moore's Supreme is the SA Superman transported to the present, it uses the same angles and same story ideas. The main focus of that story is the outfit, not the secret identity.
He said that Supreme is how he wishes Superman was, separate from humanity, torn between his dead race and his human origin.
That's not who Superman was, hell, that's not who Superman should have ever been!
LOOK at Smallville.
Do you really claim to say that after all that's happened and will happen to him on that show that the best path for Clark after leaving Smallville is to create a Fortress of Solitude so he can mourn his dead race because that's what he did in the SA and that's what Supreme did?
In the movie he didn't create the Fortress for that, he created it to learn about his race, not mourn it, he didn't create it to hide from his humanity, he created as a shrine of living memory to his dead race.
King Krypton would rather he used it the same way he did in the SA and the same way Supreme did, to be sumber and in perpetual mourning, separate from his trueself.
The costume doesn't define the man, it's the upbringing that does.
Nature vs nurture.
King Krypton would rather Superman followed the nature of the uniform (super hero), insted of following the personality he developed after being raised on Earth.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
No he doesn't, MOTA. King Krypton just wants Superman to not suck.
......His ideal Superman is one that is more Super than man.............
I agree with a lot of what you say about Supes MOTA, but I think you are completely wroing in this. The focus on the man (Clark) instead of the miraculous being (Superman) is exactly what has doomed the monthlies. I don't think rthat's what most people want. ANymore than they want to read about Bruce Wayne instead instead of Batman. People want the fantasy. Can it have a human element, sure. But that can't be the driving force. Most people don't want to read about Clark's tribulations. Or his marriage. They want to read about fighting the good fight & kicking alien booty.
Don't mistake this wanting the "fantasy" for wanting Superdogs and multi-colored kryptonite. The sterile Krypton, cool. Much better than the old silly Krypton. Supes seeing a psychiatrist, fuck that. Supes being pussy-whipped, fuck that too. Supes loving Lois, or Lana, or whoever, cool. What most people want (or me anyway ![[biiiig grin]](images/icons/grin.gif) ) is a character somewhere between the 1998 - 2003 Clark Kent, grounded human being wanna be wimp, and the 1950's - 60's Supergoof portrayal. We want a realistic SUPERhero. Something we can be proud of reading and enjoying. Something that can appeal to the child (and the child in us) and to the adult.
That's my 27-cents (hey, inflation).
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Sorry for all the typos, damn Wild Turkey!
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I can agree with that, the problem is that many people think that the 'magic' in Superman can only come from Krypton or from doing remakes of old stories.
I for one wouldn't mind if Superman did things that made people go 'Wow', but not at the expense of his origin, the integrity of the character, or his human surroundings.
Neither of those three have to suffer for Superman to be Super...
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What he means by "I want Superman to be like Supreme" is that Supreme, ignoring the giant rabbits with capes, is a better Superman story than the actual Superman comics, and that is a disgrace. Superman should be good. Dick.
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I got so pissed off reading the last two posts by MOTA that I almost want to delete this thread and become a celibate religous moron that thinks comics are the devil's feces.
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Hey, give MOTA a break. He went through all the trouble of proving in every way that his opinion is worth shit. That's not simple, you know. If I heard someone say "This cat's opinion is worth shit!" I'd say "Whoa, hold on a second there, buster!". But MOTA has made the impossible and proved that, under the right circumstances, opinions can be worth shit, or less.
Thanks for opening my mind, MOTA! :)
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quote:
He said that Supreme is how he wishes Superman was, separate from humanity, torn between his dead race and his human origin.
That's not who Superman was, hell, that's not who Superman should have ever been!
Uh, yes, he was, bitch. That was the core of the pre-Crisis Superman. He was locked in a gray area between being human and being Kryptonian, embodying both and not belonging to either. Sure, Mort Weisinger favored the Kryptonian side of the equation and Julius Schwartz favored the human side, but neither of them contradicted the fact that Superman was not, and never could be, fully human or fully Kryptonian. THAT IS EXACTLY WHO SUPERMAN WAS. Chris Reeve's Superman was such a being. So was the animated series version played by Tim Daly. Matt Wagner's Superman in the spectacular Trinity series is exactly that. Alan Moore wrote Superman that way in the few stories he did with the character. Mark Waid's Superman in Birthright is going to be the exact same way. hell, even Dean Cain's wussied-up Superman on Lois & Clark felt pride in his Kryptonian heritage, especially when he found out that Jor-El and Lara sacrificed themselves so he could live. THIS IS EXACTLY AS SUPERMAN SHOULD BE. For you to say that Superman is not a child of two worlds and that he was never meant to be only proves that you are NOT a Superman fan, but a BYRNE/JURGENS SUPERMAN fan. Believe me, the concept of Superman being caught in a gray area between his humanity and his alien heritage is been ingrained into the character for decades. Just because Byrne and Jurgens say he's only human doesn't make it so.
And you cannot use the earliest Siegel/Shuster material to say that Krypton was unimportant to Superman. He didn't even know he was from Krypton at the time! And when he did find out, he felt a kinship with his heritage...not rejecting it as "meaningless" the way your great god Byrne's did. Kirk Alyn and George Reeves' version of Superman were in the same boat. They didn't know anything about Krypton aside from the fact that they came from it, so there was no way they could become introspective about it (the demands of movie serials and early TV also made such character exploration impossible).
Further, as I have told you ENDLESS times before, I don't want to turn the clock back all the way to 1960. I want Superman to be an amalgam of all his past incarnations, be it total integration (as in Alan Moore's Supreme) or a mix and match of the best of all the different versions (Birthright, Trinity, Superman: For All Seasons to a lesser extent, and maybe even what I would do with the character if given the chance). Yet you REFUSE to listen. You insist on LYING about me, TWISTING everything I say into something it's not, and SLANDERING me as some mindless Silver Age groupie. Further, you show NO respect to anyone who doesn't think Byrne is the end-all be-all of Superman. Some fans don't like Byrne/Jurgens at all. Some fans do, but they also like the other versions of Superman as well. Some only know Superman from film, cartoons, and TV. I don't see you cutting them any slack. Your whole attitude is "Byrne/Jurgens is the ONE TRUE SUPERMAN, the only good Superman, so anything else is inherently bad and you're an idiot if you don't agree." And if anyone shows any kind of open-mindedness to anything beyond Byrne/Jurgens, you dismiss them as "not having a coherent opinion."
You know, maybe you should that that "comics are like a Rorschach test" line out of your signature. You've made it clear that the only opinion you will ever respect is your own.
quote:
King Krypton would rather he used it the same way he did in the SA and the same way Supreme did, to be sumber and in perpetual mourning, separate from his trueself.
King Krypton would rather Superman followed the nature of the uniform (super hero), insted of following the personality he developed after being raised on Earth.
No, shithead, I want Superman to be SUPERMAN, neither human nor Kryptonian, but BOTH. Which IS his true self and would BE the personality he develops on Earth. But I don't expect you to understand that. You're not a Superman fan, you're a Byrne/Jurgens Sycophant. Two totally different things.
And since you're too damned stupid to read Supreme and thus have not one single solitary clue as to Ethan Crane's characterization, I suggest you shut your damned mouth and stop trying to use it as an example of your fact-devoid, woefully inaccurate rants.
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King, you trully are the most stupid man I've ever met.
You actually belive that this character is defined by his outfit and not his background.
You're actually trying to convince people that the best possible interpretation of Superman is one that ignores his humanity in favor of his alieness.
See, there is a balance between the two, but it's not what you're asking for. The 'caught between human nurture and alien origin' angle you're asking for DOES NOT WORK.
Here you have a character that up till his mid teens was raised to think of himself as a human (go out with girls, drink milkshakes, learn to drive cars, watch movies, maybe even collect stamps or other mundane collectible you can think of), in other words, an average human being.
You want that personality to disapear the second he finds out he's an alien. You want the characters world to shatter around him and for him to suddenly develop a personality trait that serves no purpose.
You want him to question where he belongs, you want him to separate himself from humanity in a Fortress.
Furthermore, you want the alien name and super hero costume to literary replace the human character, which is the real personality!
You can keep trying to make this about Byrne and Jurgens if you like, that's still not the case.
You can still keep claiming that the past interpretations are the best ones and the only ones that matter, that's still not true.
The past interpretations that ignored the facts of the character got it wrong.
The past interpretations that say that Superman is the real face and Woody Allenesque Clark Kent is the mask got it wrong.
Clark Kent is the one that found out that he's an alien, not the other way around. Superman is not an alien that has to pretend to be human, he's a human with extraordinary powers, his alien origin doesn't define him.
According to your fucking rantings I, a second generation immigrant, am not define by anything that's ever happened to me where I live, I have to ignore all of that and instead pretend to come from where my grandparents came from.
According to your fucking rants that applies to every single immigrant on the face of the world.
According to your fucking rants instead of liking burgers because I grew to like them I should eat Borsh because that's what my ancestors ate.
That's the kind of angle you want applied to this character, for him to ignore his nurture and embrace his place of origin, at the cost of everything that he is.
Since I don't agree with you you keep making this about the fucking credit box.
You don't even fucking know how I hate the credit box. I don't care WHO the hell came up with these concepts, only that they are the best ones ever applied to the character. I don't care what the writers name is, just what effect the idea has on the character, and whether it's a good one or a bad one.
But you don't understand that, you're too fucking bitter because your comic book super hero is not fantastic enough or acting against his true character.
You're more interested in seeing Superman flying through space with his hands behind his back or spending time in his Fortress instead of understanding that that's not whot he character is nor should have ever been.
The character was raised to be a human, he thinks of himself as a human. Finding out that he's from outer space should enrich his life, not erase it or alter it.
LOOK at Smallville.
You actually think that the best thing for that character would be for him to suddenly ignore his humanity and move to an ice Fortress...
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MOTA, King Krypton said that he wants both the Human and Kryptonian aspects in Superman.
You are just making wild generalizations about people.
You know nothing. Kill yourself. Leave us alone. Nobody wants you here.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
MOTA, King Krypton said that he wants both the Human and Kryptonian aspects in Superman.
You are just making wild generalizations about people.
You know nothing. Kill yourself. Leave us alone. Nobody wants you here.
King Krypton keeps saying how much he'd like Superman to be like Supreme or like previous adaptations of the character, which ignored the human side.
He brings up the animated series as an example, the only good one he's ever mentioned. But he forgets that the animated version takes after the current version's early years after Crisis.
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Do me a favor and move out of your parents' basement, kid.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
Do me a favor and move out of your parents' basement, kid.
I don't live in one so that be pretty impossible to do.
Unlike you I actually know what a view is.
Unlike you, who probably does live in a basement, I live on a second story apartment with a beutiful view of the outside.
Care to try again?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
MOTA, King Krypton said that he wants both the Human and Kryptonian aspects in Superman.
You are just making wild generalizations about people.
You know nothing. Kill yourself. Leave us alone. Nobody wants you here.
King Krypton keeps saying how much he'd like Superman to be like Supreme or like previous adaptations of the character, which ignored the human side.
No, shit-stain, they didn't. ALL the incarnations of Superman I mentioned were BOTH human and Kryptonian. I even SAID so. And as you know NOTHING WHATSOEVER about Supreme, I'll take this moment to inform you that you are 100% dead wrong about Moore ignoring his human side. Ethan Crane's humanity is given PLENTY of page time, but it coexists with his superhuman qualities, not overwhelming and overpowering them. He's godlike AND human in the same breath. Unlike the Byrne/Jurgens Superman who rejects his alien heritage and clings solely to his farm roots and has nothing godlike about him.
And if I'm the most stupid man you've ever met, you clearly haven't looked in the mirror lately.
quote:
He brings up the animated series as an example, the only good one he's ever mentioned. But he forgets that the animated version takes after the current version's early years after Crisis.
And you IGNORE that the animated Superman was very heavily informed by the Silver Age even though it used the basic Byrne framework. Its Superman cherished his Kryptonian side as much as he did his human side, it had a Supergirl close in spirit to the pre-Crisis version (and she would have actually BEEN Kara Zor-El had DC not put the brakes on the idea), there were Kryptonian villains in the Phantom Zone, Brainiac was a genocidal computer again, Bizarro actually had a persponality...it was loaded with all the stuff that your keep asserting was crap. Which makes me wonder: Did you even read so much as a PAGE of the pre-Crisis comics? Because the era you keep generalizing as the Antichrist gave birth to all the good stuff in the animated series.
Dumbass.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
Do me a favor and move out of your parents' basement, kid.
I don't live in one so that be pretty impossible to do.
Unlike you I actually know what a view is.
Unlike you, who probably does live in a basement, I live on a second story apartment with a beutiful view of the outside.
Care to try again?
You see, I am young enough to be living at home and not be considered a loser. Go to hell, you mindless Superman-loving prick.
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Oh, and another thing, MOTA:
Your entire rant against me only proves my point. You claim I want Superman to be purely Kryptonian and have no humanity when I have clearly said that I want him to be both Kryptonian and human. You claim I only care about the "credits" box when I have made it clear that the character is my concern, and that the names in the credits box are supposed to service the character. You make out like I just want to turn the clock back to the '60s when I have said OVER and OVER again that I want INTEGRATION of the various versions of Superman. And because I'm not a Byrne/Jurgens zombie like you, you claim I'm too stupid to know what's good for me. Well, maybe I've got enough brains to think outside the Byrne/Jurgens box.
And to cap it all off, you exposed yourself as a hypocrite by praising ther animated Superman, a show heavily reliant on the character's Silver Age roots within a loose Byrne framework. Silver Age roots you denouce as inherently destructive to your beloved Byrne/Jurgens vision. You really have nothing to stand on, do you?
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You said:
'I want Supreme: Story of the Year to replace Man of Steel as the Post Crisis reboot'.
Since it was MoS which established that the Kents are still alive, that Clark Kent is the real person and Superman is a 'mask' he wears so he can use his powers to help people then clearly you don't like those aspects of the character.
You also say you want all the previous versions to be 'real'. That means you want the damn super pets again because you can't understand the character without them.
You want MORE Kryptonians because you can't understand the character without them.
You want convenient, plot-driven forms of Kryptonite that only appear once and are never mentioned again because you don't understand the character withou them.
You have not ONCE used the word EXCEPT in your rants. Your rants are absolute.
You absolutly want Superman to be like Supreme, which in turn is like the 1960's Superman...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You absolutly want Superman to be like Supreme, which in turn is like the 1960's Superman...
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW you stupid fucker, you have NEVER read the book.
It is NOTHING like that at all and you would KNOW that if you actually read it instead of just constantly spewing your ignorance out of your flatulent ass.
I have never read your writing and wouldn't think of commenting on your stories just based on hearsay or from a picture or two.
But using the MOTA logic I know that your stories blow and are obviously fucking derivative garbage and the gibberish of a fevered and damaged mind.
You are easily the biggest fucking idiot I have ever had the displeasure of running into on any message board anywhere.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW you stupid fucker, you have NEVER read the book.
I asked who the women with Supreme are and someone here replied they are his sister and his cousin.
That's fucking derivative of Supergirl.
Supreme is surrounded by animals with capes.
That's fucking derivative of Krypto.
Supreme was found by FARMERS.
That's fucking derivative of the Kents.
People like YOU keep comparing Supreme with Superman.
What more proof do you want?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
People like YOU keep comparing Supreme with Superman.
Dude, that's you. Not him.
quote:
What more proof do you want?
Maybe if you read the book, then you can say whatever you want, you... you know what? There's no fucking good word to describe you anymore.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
Dude, that's you. Not him.
No, it's people like him and King Krypton and others in other boards who keep calling Moore's Supreme 'the best Superman stories they've ever seen'.
It's two-faced comparison by their part. Fist they call it the best interpretation of Superman they've ever seen and say they wish that's how the 'real' thing were like, but when someone calls them on how Moore ripped off 1960's Superman they get defensive and start using words like 'homage', 'parody' and 'inspiration'.
quote:
Maybe if you read the book, then you can say whatever you want, you... you know what? There's no fucking good word to describe you anymore.
If I wanted to read about the 1960's Superman I'd read the real thing, not some derivative 'parody'...
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Dude, the current Superman IS a derivative parody of the original Superman.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
Dude, the current Superman IS a derivative parody of the original Superman.
Yes, the current Superman since 99 has been a lame imitation of the 1960's version, that's what's wrong with the character and what's killing sales.
What needs to be done is bring back the angles and interpretations from before things went wrong, from before Loeb and the others were hired and from before Jurgens and the other writers got burned out on the character.
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No, it started way before 1999.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
No, it started way before 1999.
Like I said, it started when Jurgens and the previous team got burned out on the character.
It got worse after 99...
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Guys, come on, you don't need to insult MOTA so harshly. Why not? Read this: quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW you stupid fucker, you have NEVER read the book.
I asked who the women with Supreme are and someone here replied they are his sister and his cousin.
That's fucking derivative of Supergirl.
Supreme is surrounded by animals with capes.
That's fucking derivative of Krypto.
Supreme was found by FARMERS.
That's fucking derivative of the Kents.
People like YOU keep comparing Supreme with Superman.
What more proof do you want?
MOTA has alredy insulted himself more than any other person in the planet could. The fact that he reads his post and asks "whu? what's wrong with that?" makes it even worse. People, read MOTA's replies and think for a second. Do you think he's a normal human being? Do you think a normal mind could produce stuff like that post up there?
C'mon, people, give the poor fella a break...
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Back to the DC releasing Byrne TPBs topic: I hope they don't reprint the Superboy saga with the Legion. That storyline had a super pet so it's a comedy and it sucks.
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I can't take this anymore. Son of a bitch.
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quote:
posted 07-19-2003 03:05 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Disco Steve:
Dude, that's you. Not him.
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No, it's people like him and King Krypton and others in other boards who keep calling Moore's Supreme 'the best Superman stories they've ever seen'.
BULLSHIT.
Neither of us EVER said that. "The best Superman stories in years," yes. We have said that. "The best Superman stories we've ever read"? NO. Neither of us ever once said that. You are bald-faced LYING about us, just as you always do...because you haven't the brains to actually discuss what's REALLY being said. Every single word you've said about me, Kilgore, and anyone else whose opinion differs from yours has been an utter and complete lie.
quote:
It's two-faced comparison by their part. Fist they call it the best interpretation of Superman they've ever seen and say they wish that's how the 'real' thing were like, but when someone calls them on how Moore ripped off 1960's Superman they get defensive and start using words like 'homage', 'parody' and 'inspiration'.
Listen, shit-for-brains, Animalman was the guy who covered that topic on you "Supreme Fans Read This" thread and on my "On The State Of The Superman Books" thread. Not me, not Kilgore, not Disco Steve, not anyone else. And quite frankly, Animalman put you in your place but good. If you're going lash out at anyone for proving you wrong, at least have the courtesy to take it out on the right person. Or maybe it's just easier for you to pick out scapegoats and screech your empty little head off?
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Oh, and Woodstock, would it be possible for you to close this thread? I've had all I can stand of MOTA's idiocy, and the fact that he turns ANY Superman or Supreme-related thread into "Byrne and Jurgens are God, worship them or die" rant-fests has only added to my utter distaste.
Just kill this thread and end it. I can't take any more of MOTA's complete stupidity and egomania.
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You do realize that the only one that mentions Byrne and Jurgens as being perfect and Godlike is you, right?
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Joined: May 2003
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Posts: 1,326 |
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You do realize that the only one that mentions Byrne and Jurgens as being perfect and Godlike is you, right?
Because that is PRECISELY the attitude that you and others like you give off. You brag about how the old Superman stuff needed to be changed up, but as soon as Byrne/Jurgens gets challenged, you screech, bleat, whine, and wail about how "disrespectful" people are to their work, how you want those who dare to contradict Byrne/Jurgens to go down in flames (your egotistical little crack about wanting Birthright dead and buried, not to mention your dismissal of [i}Trinity[/i] when I brought it up), and how the only way to "save" Superman is to go back to doing things the same way they were during the Jurgens era. Further, you've claimed elsewhere that the Byrne/Jurgens Superman is the "ONE true Superman" and "the GOOD version of Superman," and how you think it should never be changed. The way you carry on, you make it crystal clear that you think Byrne/Jurgens should be held as holy writ.
Don't you DARE try to pawn the blame off on me. You brought this on yourself. Now deal with it.
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