It's getting close to the release of Star Trek X--Nemesis, and naturally there are a ton of debates going on about the different series, or about how much TNG movies sucked, or how Worf just happens to pop up in them when he's so obviously stationed at DS9, but thats ok. We are going to be different.
This is what I want. I want you to vote on who you think was the best Captain, not because he was the intergalactic space pimp of the century, or you think he had the coolest ship, was half alien stationed on a junkheap, lost in space, or can't go past Warp 5.9 but has a Vulcan as Science officer like you know who.
Instead, give some serious consideration to their actions and weigh the pros and cons of what you saw, episode and series wise and base your decision on that. Then tell us what it was that influenced your decision.
I'll go first.
Benjamin Sisko. I really enjoyed Deep Space Nine because it was something different. Sisko was different. It was the first Star Trek series that wasn't shot on a Ship, that had a Black Captain, and to me the situations on the series felt more real because whatever decision Sisko and his senior staff made, affected them long after the choice was made. No zipping off for space unknown and ignoring or forgetting about a problem, and each decision made, no matter how freaked up caused the Sisko character to grow. I love the fact that he wasn't JUST Ben Sisko--Starfleet Officer, but the Bajoran Emissary. It made him feel more real to watch him struggle to juggle both "job" sucessfully. He didn't always succeed, but thats life. You don't always suceed. I think between Kirk and Picard, we've gotten a little spoiled to the whole "good guys win the day" thing, then here come's Sisko to blow it up.
I also loved the fact that he had a child, something he shared with Kirk. This added another side to Sisko and soften up the harsh, bitter Starfleet commander we saw when DS9 aired. More things for him to juggle. The Benjamin Sisko character did nothing but overcome. He was grieving, His First Officer hated him, the station was in ruins, the Cardassians was threatening, the Prophets was yanking him out of continuum when they felt like it, his son wasn't happy, and his best friend who started out a man, was now a woman.
He was not having a good day.
But time and time again, I watched him deal, and while not always successful, he did learn a thing or two. You always saw the growth. Not just in him, but in the other characters. If DSN did nothing else, it matured the hell out of characters.
Nothing was easy. He fought for every piece of ground he won. I loved the fact that there was no quite in him, and wasn't afraid to kick the prime directive to the curve if it helped someone. Maybe not a good strategic choice, but when it comes to the human factor, the right one every time.
Real situations, Real problems, Real issues, and Real answers.
Good reasons there Princess,but I gotta go with Captain James T. Kirk.As Eddie Murphy(aka Theory9)once said,Captain Kirk is the coolest white man on the planet.Not just because he got the girl every...single time,but because he wasn't afraid of nothin'.He'd bend the rules to do what he thought was best for everyone involved & protect his ship & crew.I dunno,I can't delve into everything about what makes him tick...but damn,he's just the best.
quote:Originally posted by allan1:Good reasons there Princess, but I gotta go with Captain James T. Kirk. As Eddie Murphy(aka Theory9)once said, Captain Kirk is the coolest white man on the planet. Not just because he got the girl every...single time, but because he wasn't afraid of nothin'.
Kirk was scared of things. I think Spock had him scared to death!
quote:Originally posted by allan1:He'd bend the rules to do what he thought was best for everyone involved & protect his ship & crew. I dunno,I can't delve into everything about what makes him tick...but damn,he's just the best.
This is ture too. I honestly believed that the Prime Directive was designed with Kirk in mind. Not that he followed it anyway, but you gotta admit that something had to be implemented as a form of control, what, with Kirk sleeping all over the galaxy.
Kirk: STOP! I'll Shoot! *POW* Picard: STOP! I'll SHOOT! I really WILL! Sisko: *POW* If you don't STOP, I WILL SHOOT AGAIN! Janeway: STOP or I'll have my Borg SHOOT! Archer: We get to SHOOT these things? Cool!
Kirk maybe been the coolest, but Sisko is the most level-headed of them. Picard is too soft sometimes, and is not willing to sacrifice as easily for the greater good. He likes stability and order over all. Janeway is the anti-Picard, not only 'cause she's a woman but she nearly flies by the seat of her pants. She's daring and sometimes too much for her own good.
Don't get me started with Archer.
To sum it all up, Sisko has all of those Captain's dominant qualities in one package. Plus he's a better tactician than any of them.
He was the master tactician, and he did whatever it took to win, he could never except failure. A perfect summary of his mentality is the otherwise awful Star Trek 5(with Spok's brother and the search for "God"), which talked about the exam Kirk had to take at the Academy, with the situation that was impossible to win. It was designed to teach the student to accept loss. Kirk, being the clever bastard that he is, cheated, and passed.
Yeah, and he got the girls.
Second in my mind would be the philosopher Captain, Picard. Janeway would be third. Sisko I never thought of as a Captain, because he wasn't very battle-tested and he worked from a space station, not a ship. However, there's no question that Sisko had the coolest voice. :)
Are you out of your fuckin' gourd?! Sisko not battle-tested?! Sure, maybe it wasn't a great way to start his intro at the Battle of Wolf 359 or whatever the fuck number it was, but afterwards he kicked ass left and right, sometimes in a runabout! He had the Defiant, which was a ship and eventually lead hundreds of other ships into kicking the Dominion straight in the balls!
He's not battle-tested my ass.
And to go back on another subject, true K, he is weak on diplomacy. But there really wasn't a call for it at the edge of the quadrant. Now I'm not saying Sisko didn't have any, 'cause he had to have had some to work well with Bajor and calm those Cardassians down.
quote:Originally posted by TK-069:Are you out of your fuckin' gourd?! Sisko not battle-tested?!
I'm gonna agree with that. Sisko was a Soldier all the way. That was probably the problem with him in the first place. He was more the soldier, and less the captain. This is how I see the captains.
Kirk the Cowboy Picard the Diplomat Sisko the Soldier Janeway the Explorer Archer trying to be all at once.
quote:Originally posted by Animalman: Deep Space Nine didn't deal with battles or wars or hostile encounters. That's not what it was about. So no, Sisko was not battle tested.
This is making me wonder if we was seeing the same show. DS9 was more about War then any of the series in the Star Trek Franchise! Who wasn't fighting? Granted, until season 4, it was mostly political and dealing with those character growth issues and Religion, but at Season 4 it was the Klingons fighting, The Federation fighting, The Cardassians, The Bajorans, The Vorta, Founders, the Jem Ha'dar and who every else wanted to throw in too. There was nothing but hostile encounters going on! Sisko was more of a Stratagist then Picard could ever claim. The whole problem I had with Kirk and Picard was that they was rarely shown as failable men. Kirk never failed, Picard never failed. Everything was too perfect, to sterile. Even when Picard fell to the Borg. Whoop the fucking do! I almost had a storke when I saw him--brand new with side effects and going on like nothing had happened. Like it was what happened every Sunday afternoon. What did he really suffer? Mental anguish? That's it? UGH! The writers couldn't even allow him to be damaged much by that. Did they allow the Picard character to keep any of the Borg Implants? Hell, 7 or 9 was younger and a full bloodied Borg, and she didn't get off so scott free. It didn't feel real and I can't relate to perfection. Sisko on the other hand was a man first. All his problems wasn't solved to everyone's satafaction, HELL, most of the time it wasn't solved at all. Sisko failed, he admitted that there were a lot of things beyond his control and dealt with it as best as he could. They way we all do. Sisko was the most real of the captains to me. I could relate wwwwwwwwwwwway better and I did my heart good to see him struggle. With Picard we've gotten into the habit that the good guys will save the day when thats false more times then not. The Dominion Was was a long, drawnout, Bloody dragout and Sisko was very much a part of it. He was on the front lines and operating the most valuable stratigic base in the Alpha Quadrant. The man is as Battle Ready as they come.
quote:Originally posted by Princess Koriand'r: This is making me wonder if we was seeing the same show.
I think you saw what you wanted to see, and I saw what I wanted to see.
I haven't seen every single episode. I don't claim to. The episodes I have seen are structured completely differently than the previous shows. It was like a soap opera, it revolved around the other characters, and their interactions/problems. Sisko was more often than not simply the mediator for the solving of these problems. This wasn't the way the other shows worked. That's one of the reasons I liked the show, it was different.
quote:Sisko was more of a Stratagist then Picard could ever claim.
Picard wasn't a strategist, not by any means. He was more, as I said, the philosopher Captain.
quote:The writers couldn't even allow him to be damaged much by that.
That's not true at all. He spent the remainder of the show whining about it. They even dedicated an entire movie to it(First Contact)!
You addressed one of Picard's problems yourself. Sisko had a son. Kirk had a son. Picard didn't. Picard had to face the awful reality that he was the last Picard. His parents were dead, his siblings were dead, his nephews and nieces were dead. He was it, he was all that remained.
As long as his dick can still get hard, not to mention the fact that this is the 24th Century, there are tons of ways for the man to have a child--if he wanted one.
He is currently 62 years old. This is not an image I would wish to visualize, but one would think he'd need some "outside help" to gain erection. Perhaps by the 23rd century viagra comes in "extra strength".
Seeing as how much longer people live at that time (see Dr McCoy) I would imagine the senior citizens are still very "frisky".
First off after having read the opening post by Kenya, I am even more in love with her than ever before!
Sisko is without a doubt the BADDEST and best Captain, ever! DS9 was the coolest show, as you said the good guys didnt always win. And the bad guys werent always the bad guys! The show was full of shades of grey!
Animalman must be getting a version of DS9 from the mirror universe or didnt see much of the Dominon War, because Sisko was one of the main forces in guiding the war which is noted as one of the worst in Federation history. So actually Sisko has dealt with more war onscreen than all the other Capains combined.
That said DS9 is one of my all time favorite shows, so Sisko being the BEST Ill give you the rundown on the other Captains. Kirk & Picard are tied because my views constantly change on them! That being moreso because of the Star Trek Novels I read.
Kirk was the guy who bent rules to get what he needed a cowboy is a fair assessment of him. But the pimp daddy stuff was overdone on the tv show, it gets old seeing him fall totally in love each episode.
Picard is a more seasoned Captain and very diplomatic. What never made sense to me is he was always getting pissed off and never doing things about it. (And what the hell is up with Riker? Why wouldnt he take his own ship? I mean Spock's a Vulcan and he aint into the whol Captain deal but Riker?!?!?)
Archer I think so far hes doing all right. The show itself needs to woek out a few bugs (although I havent seen this season yet.)
Janeway...please I hardly even like to think about that wretched show. Talk about foreced endings. Many episodes would find the crew searching for a resolution to a problem, often leading you to believe well this is a two parter for sure they cant sum this adequately after the las comercial break. Sure enough they would try a mysterious deis ex machina to the rescue each episode! Another great thing about DS9 things were never always tightly wrapped up at the end of an epsiode! I mean Harry Kim is a clone now but no one ever makes mention of it! And dont get me started on Seven of Boobies!
If you have any doubt that Sisko is the baddest keep in mind that he was the only one who ever really bested Q, in the boxing ring as a matter of fact. Q never bothered him again! Besides that Sisko is the only who has Quark (the all time BEST character!).
quote:Originally posted by THE Franta: Animalman must be getting a version of DS9 from the mirror universe or didnt see much of the Dominon War, because Sisko was one of the main forces in guiding the war which is noted as one of the worst in Federation history. So actually Sisko has dealt with more war onscreen than all the other Capains combined.
None of this took place in the first few years of the show, which is primarily what I watched. You patronize me as if I've missed some giant part of the series, yet as others have said in this very thread that this all took place in later on seasons. I haven't seen every episode, I was only basing what I said on what I saw.
quote:If you have any doubt that Sisko is the baddest keep in mind that he was the only one who ever really bested Q, in the boxing ring as a matter of fact.
Picard beat Q almost every time he showed up. If Q didn't appear again it's because the writers didn't want to use him. Picard has about a dozen steps on Sisko in the "Q factor".
quote:Originally posted by THE Franta: First off after having read the opening post by Kenya, I am even more in love with her than ever before!
I...I...I love you too!
quote:Originally posted by THE Franta: Kirk & Picard are tied because my views constantly change on them! That being moreso because of the Star Trek Novels I read.
Speaking of novels, have you read Diplomatic Implasibility by Keith R.A. DeCandido? This is a book you really need to pick up. Its centered around Worfs first assingment as Federation Ambassador and one of hte best books I've read in the franchise.
quote:Originally posted by THE Franta: Animalman must be getting a version of DS9 from the mirror universe or didnt see much of the Dominon War, because Sisko was one of the main forces in guiding the war which is noted as one of the worst in Federation history. So actually Sisko has dealt with more war onscreen than all the other Capains combined.
None of this took place in the first few years of the show, which is primarily what I watched. You patronize me as if I've missed some giant part of the series, yet as others have said in this very thread that this all took place in later on seasons. I haven't seen every episode, I was only basing what I said on what I saw.
So then you can agree he does have battle skills
quote:If you have any doubt that Sisko is the baddest keep in mind that he was the only one who ever really bested Q, in the boxing ring as a matter of fact.
Picard beat Q almost every time he showed up. If Q didn't appear again it's because the writers didn't want to use him. Picard has about a dozen steps on Sisko in the "Q factor".[/QB][/QUOTE]
It is referred in STNG and Voyager by Picard & Janeway that Q is in awe of Sisko. Q merely states Sisko isnt any fun.
Nope and thanks for the reminder. I have to pick em up from Waldenbooks today. I freaking totally forgot. Not only that, I forgot to write Keith back! Anyway, he gave me some good plugs for other stuff to read, so check it over and tell me if you've read any of the stuff suggested.
This is said letter from the newsgroups--
quote:Originally posted by Keith R.A. DeCandido
From: "Keith R.A. DeCandido" <keith@decandido.net> Subject: Re: Star Trek TNG: Diplomatic Implausibility Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:22 AM
Princess Koriand'r--- Sigh...this is my usual luck. I should be used to it by now. Caught with my pants down again. Greetings Mr. DeCandido, How are you? I never actually expected to get a reply from the AUTHOR, but now that the opportunity has presented itself, let me be the first to say, (As I should have said earlier if I even had a clue you was subscribed to this newsgroup.) that you are the reason I've truly gave the Startrek books another chance. I have to admit, some of the writers, especially the DS9 ones was giving me fits. If it wasn't boring, it was totally out of character or ill perceived.
Keith--- Out of curiosity, have you read any of the post-finale DS9 novels that have been published over the last couple of years? With the end of the TV series, Pocket has been given carte blanche to continue the story forward without being encumbered by the dreaded "reset button."
One of the biggest problems that DS9 novels had while the show was in production was that, because of the much greater lead time on a novel, the DS9 novels tended to be out of date by the time they were published because the status quo on DS9 was always in a state of flux. That's no longer an issue.
In any case, I strongly recommend that you pick up AVATAR Books 1-2 by S.D. Perry. They chronicle the post-"What You Leave Behind" setup and put several plotlines into motion that continue throughout the novels. If you like those, the others include:
SECTION 31: ABYSS by David Weddle & Jeffrey Lang (no, you don't need to read the other S31 books to follow this)
GATEWAYS: DEMONS OF AIR AND DARKNESS by Keith R.A. DeCandido (again, you don't need to read the other GATEWAYS books)
"Horn and Ivory" by Keith R.A. DeCandido in GATEWAYS: WHAT LAY BEYOND
After that is the four-book MISSION: GAMMA series, which just came out:
Book 1: TWILIGHT by David R. George III Book 2: THIS GRAY SPIRIT by Heather Jarman Book 3: CATHEDRAL by Michael A. Martin & Andy Mangels Book 4: LESSER EVIL by Robert Simpson
Coming in January is RISING SON by S.D. Perry, and Perry will then pen the first DS9 hardcover in almost a decade, UNITY, which will be out in April.
If you're a DS9 fan, I don't think you'll be disappointed. *grin*
End plug.
Princess Koriand'r--- Be assured, I'll be in Walden books as fast as my little legs will carry me for book number Two. Could this be a possible series?
Keith--- just to be clear, the next Ambassador Worf appearance is in THE BRAVE & THE BOLD, which is a two-book series that covers all five TV shows. The final part -- the TNG segment -- involves Worf, the Enterprise-E, the Gorkon, and Ambassador Spock.
Worf also plays a small role in the first two I.K.S. GORKON books, which will be solo adventures of Captain Klag and the gang, which will be published a year from now. That =will= be a series, but will focus on the ship, not Worf.
How-some-ever, I do have further plans for our favorite ambassador, rest assured. *grin*
Princess Koriand'r--- And while I'm thinking of it....why was > Diplomatic Implausibility published under the Star Trek TNG genre and not DS9?
Keith--- Because it had to be =something=, and it isn't really TNG =or= DS9, it's a Worf solo novel, but we couldn't call it STAR TREK: WORF. *grin* There are arguments both ways, but we went with TNG because a) the Enterprise actually appears in it and DS9 doesn't, and b) Pocket was ramping up for the DS9 relaunch at the same time that I was developing this novel, and while DI is consistent with the new DS9 novels, it isn't one of them, and Pocket didn't want to put out a non-relaunch-related DS9 novel only a few months before AVATAR.
Princess Koriand'r--- Well, I've wasted enough of your time.
Keith--- Not a waste at all. *smile*
Keith R.A. DeCandido keith@decandido.net DeCandido.net | AlbeShiloh.com | KRADfanclub.com
Franta! Daddy! I just got book one of Avatar, (Book 2 wasn't in when I got to Walden) and I must say, so far, so good! Its starting to get good, but I'm kinda confused. Ro Laren? Wasn't she a tratior--AGAIN? How did she end up on DS9? What happened to her and the Marquis? I need to know!
For me, it is between Kirk and Picard. I don't care about Janeway, because I hated the actress, and Deep Space Nine really never interested me.
Kirk was fascinating and adventuresome, flawed, allowing for the Vulcan to correct him and help him in situations while he had some woman's panties hanging from his ear.
Picard seemed to be more experienced, reclusive and educated. The old man captain. He was ultimately the decision-maker, taking advice from a robot, a blind dude, a hot-headed Klingon, and some bearded guy. He was the diplomat explorer. Something of a philosopher. When the Borg captured him and used his mind to wipe out the fleet, it showed how what he was capable of. I guess.
I suppose Kirk had more personality, and was more enjoyable in the films, but as a Captain, taking care of a crew, I think Picard was the better. It's close though. Different men.
I think you hit the nail on the head though, Kirk and Picard are such different characters you can't really compare them. If I was in battle, I'd want Kirk as my captain. If I was exploring, I'd want Picard.
quote:Originally posted by Princess Koriand'r: Franta! Daddy! I just got book one of Avatar, (Book 2 wasn't in when I got to Walden) and I must say, so far, so good! Its starting to get good, but I'm kinda confused. Ro Laren? Wasn't she a tratior--AGAIN? How did she end up on DS9? What happened to her and the Marquis? I need to know!
I cant remember where I read it but she was cleared of all the Maqui crimes after the Dominion War. Picard ended up influencing Federation's decision.
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Yeah, but ole boy do suck on diplomacy! Especially in the later sesons. The Dominion was bad on diplomacy!
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