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but the UAW got a bailout so thats ok!
-MEM

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How Much Did That New Car Cost?
  • The National Taxpayers Union has a new study out assessing the cost of the auto bailouts. The numbers should shock you. Not only has the subsidy to GM (and its banking division, GMAC) and Chrysler amounted to $800 per taxpaying household — money that could easily make the difference between a real Christmas and an "imagination Christmas" this year — but the subsidies per car sold are remarkable. They amount to over $12,000 per GM car and over $7,500 per Chrysler car sold.

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GM CEO Calling It Quits:
  • General Motors' CEO Frederick "Fritz" Henderson has resigned after eight turbulent months as head of the largest U.S. automaker.

    Henderson, 51, succeeded Rick Wagoner on March 29 after the Obama administration ousted GM's former CEO as the company worked through a government-led reorganization.

    Henderson spent the next few months working with the government to reorganize the automaker outside of bankruptcy, but eventually took the company into Chapter 11 protection in June.

    Henderson continued to downsize the automaker after its emergence from bankruptcy. He sought to scale down GM to just four core brands: Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC.

    While he has largely succeeded in that goal, attempts to sell the company's other brands have hit obstacles.

    The company is winding down Pontiac and was successful in winning a tentative sale of Hummer to a Chinese construction machinery maker.

    However, Henderson's bid to sell Saturn to racecar mogul Roger Penske fell through and the brand is now liquidating. Last week, Swedish sports car maker Koenigsegg Automotive AB dropped out of a deal to buy Saab.


That bailout's working GREAT!

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Presenting the Chevy Volt Dancers
  • Just a few days after the engineering team behind the Chevrolet Volt triumphantly rolled out the production version of its much-anticipated car for journalists to test, the folks in marketing followed it up with folk music, break dancing, and what looks like a few rejects from a 1986 high school production of the "Pirates of Penzance".

    Word that General Motors had commissioned a theme song for the car called "Chevy Volt and Me" first turned up last week on gm-volt.com, an independent blog dedicated to the development of the car.

    With lyrics that include lines such as "what will get us out of first gear? A better EV. Not that that's a big idea(r)", the milquetoast tune seemed anathema to the high-tech, next-gen image GM has been crafting for the car up to this point.

    Now there's the video.

    Although it looks more like a "Saturday Night Live" skit, the dance routine that was performed on the Volt display at the Los Angeles Auto Show is all too real. Captured by a visitor who uploaded the video to YouTube, three females wearing puffy shirts and the aforementioned break dancer, who also plays air guitar, shake just about everything on their bodies for the duration of the song. Often out of sync. Reportedly, the cringe-inducing interpretation of an electric-powered future took place every hour during the ten days of the show.

    When asked about it during a web chat with journalists on Monday, GM's newly-minted head of marketing, Susan Docherty said she hadn't "yet seen the Chevrolet Volt song and dance but it sounds like I need to spend some time tonight on the web viewing this."

    She's not the only one.


Click here for VIDEO of the Chevy Volt Dancers

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This is what happens when you give billions of dollars to a company that's already lost billions of its own money.


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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MEM, you voted for a genius.

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As long as those dancers have to pay UAW dues it will all be worthwhile.
Sincerely,
Nambla Zick

the G-man #1100121 2010-01-05 5:54 PM
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Wall St Journal: Ford posted a 33% rise in December U.S. light-vehicle sales, ending a stellar year for the auto maker compared with its rivals. Meanwhile, Chrysler posted a 3.7% decline.

Which company took the government bailout again?

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"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
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 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
MEM, you voted for a genius.


This world is doomed.


"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com] [/center]

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com][/center]
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Back to the Future: GM Bets on Trucks
  • General Motors Co. has freed up cash to fund a major update of its full-size pickups, a bet that consumers and businesses will resume buying trucks after a long lull in sales.

    Chairman and Chief Executive Edward E. Whitacre Jr. has agreed to fund the move, said GM product chief Tom Stephens. The remodeling could cost the company close to $1 billion, a person familiar with the matter said.

    GM, which had relied on full-size pickups such as the Chevrolet Silverado for a major portion of its U.S. revenue and operating profit, had put off redesigning the trucks


There's two ways to look at this:
  • Taxpayers spent billions bailing the company out so that it could go back to making the same decisions that got it in trouble;
  • The government's demands that car companies produce "green" autos is so much bunk, insofar as the only way for a company to be profitable is to make cars people want, which appears to be big, honkin', trucks

Neither says much in support of the bailout.

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Ford Sees Profit of $2.7 Billion in Year It Calls ‘Pivotal’: The company also said that it expected to be profitable in 2010, a year sooner than previously forecast.
NY times

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I live in a rural area that was almost exclusively Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Since the bailouts hardly anyone buys GM's or Chrysler's. Many Chevy truck buyers have switched to Ford and even more consider toyota's a more patriotic buy.

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LaHood Says Stop Driving Recalled Toyotas, Then Retracts
  • Toyota Motor Corp. shares sank rapidly Wednesday after U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood advised in congressional testimony that people stop driving any cars involved in the Toyota recall, though the declines eased somewhat after the secretary clarified his statement.

    Testifying before the House Appropriations committee, LaHood was asked what advice he would give to owners of Toyotas subject to the recall. LaHood was scheduled to speak to the committee, which controls the government's spending, about the fiscal 2011 budget proposals.

    "My advice is, if anybody owns one of these vehicles, stop driving it, take it to the Toyota dealer because they believe they have the fix for it," LaHood said.

    Afterwards he told reporters that wasn't what he meant to say.


Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I really wouldn't put it past this administration to think it can prop up the fortunes of government-run GM and Chrysler by hurting Toyota's business.

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Considering this is probably the most Schizo administration ever...I wouldn't think you were paranoid at all.

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Apparently, I'm not the only one to think of this:
  • What is it about the automotive industry that inspires such thuggish attitudes in the Obama administration? The Examiner's Michael Barone coined the term "gangster government" to describe threats by the White House last spring against Chrysler creditors who had the temerity to insist that bankruptcy laws be followed in the bailout of the perennially ailing third member of the once-fabled Detroit Big Three. Now along comes Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood muttering darkly that "we're not finished yet with Toyota" in the controversy over sticking gas pedals in vehicles made and sold in America by the Japanese automaker.

    The basis for these threats is little more than anecdote-based suspicions that an electronic malady related to electro-magnetic interference from power lines might be the problem instead of the mechanical wear identified by Toyota engineers. Regardless, LaHood, headline-chasing congressmen like Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and a chorus of Naderite auto safety nannies led by former National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration Administrator Joan Claybrook are demanding that Toyota submit to a punishing new round of subpoenas, hearings, and media inquisition. It's not enough that Toyota -- the auto industry's perennial leader on respected measures of initial and long-term quality -- has already taken the unprecedented step of suspending production and sales of eight of its most popular models, undertaken a crash course to identify the cause of the problem, and guaranteed a fix for every one of the 2.3 million affected owners.

    Given the Obama administration's catering to one of its favorite special interest groups, the United Auto Workers union, during the government's bailouts of General Motors and Chrysler last year, it is difficult to avoid wondering whether Toyota has become a victim of the Chicago Way of dealing with competitors. Toyota overtook GM several years ago as the world's leading automaker. The potential of the current sticking gas pedal controversy to inflict damage on Toyota here in its largest single market is seen in the January sales figures. Toyota sales are down 16 percent while GM is up 14 percent (Ford, which declined a government bailout last year, is up 25 percent, while Chrysler is down 8 percent). Keep the controversy going and odds are good that Toyota sales will continue to drop. The biggest losers besides American consumers will be the men and women who own and work at Toyota's 1,200 U.S. dealerships and the 30,000 Americans who build Toyotas in its five factories here. LaHood might as well have said "Nice car company ya got there, be a shame if anything happened to it."

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Now CBS is picking on this theory:
  • Given that the federal government owns a majority stake in rival company General Motors, White House Deputy Spokesman Bill Burton was asked during the daily White House breifing whether LaHood's comments represented a conflict of interest. As news of the recall has unfolded, GM has reportedly offered Toyota customers new incentives to win their business.

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Case closed. This is obviously part of a pattern.

Back on January 27, the UAW and Teamsters announced plans to protest Toyota outside the Japanese embassy in Washington, D.C., on Thursday, calling the automaker "a danger to America"

A few days later, Obama's Transportation Director "accidentally" tells the American people its unsafe to drive their Toyotas.

This is clearly more "ACORN-style" politics from Obama. They want to break and/or unionize Toyota for their thug pals in the UAW.

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Toyota: Dems 'not industry friendly'. Internal Toyota documents derided the Obama administration and Democratic Congress as “activist” and “not industry friendly," a revelation that comes days before the giant automaker's top executives testify on Capitol Hill amid a giant recall.

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Toyota recalls may help free jailed Camry owner: The spate of recent recalls from the Japanese automaker could reverse a Minnesota man's conviction for vehicular homicide in a 2006 accident where his Toyota Camry accelerated and crashed into another car, leaving three dead

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 Quote:
General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue, butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall. Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop company pensions.

When the two automakers emerged from bankruptcy reorganization the pension problems were seen as a more distant issue, and presumably one that would be eased by economic growth. But the auto industry is facing a slow recovery, and neither the new GM nor the new Chrysler has produced a profit. Christopher Liddell, GM's new chief financial officer, has stopped short of predicting that GM will be profitable this year, while Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne is hoping Chrysler can break even this year. Both GM and Chrysler are also moving to build smaller vehicles, which have traditionally produced smaller profits. The pension funding crisis could begin in 2013, or before either company is fully profitable.

Here are the chief questions raised by the potential pension crisis:

  • Could taxpayers really be on the hook for UAW pensions?

    Yes. GM could face a funding crisis in 2013 or 2014 when, under the current projections, the automaker will be required to make more than $12 billion in contributions to its pension funds to keep them solvent, according to the GAO analysis. Chrysler's estimated future pension obligation is $3 billion. If the companies cannot meet their funding obligations they may have to terminate their plans, and the financial responsibilities (up to government limits) would be assumed by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation. The funding could easily become a serious challenge for the PBGC, which says it is now facing $168 billion in possible plan terminations across a range of companies, many of them auto suppliers. The PBGC is privately funded, but since it was created by an act of Congress and its board of directors consists of the Secretaries of Labor, Commerce and Treasury, it's possible that the U.S. Government would step in if the agency came up desperately short of funds. Of course, the Obama Administration could allow GM or Chrysler to defer their pension contributions, but there would likely be stiff resistance to another wink-and-a-pass for automakers.

    Won't a successful IPO of new GM stock resolve the pension funding problem?

    No. The actual timing of the initial public offering and the amount of money it raises will depend on market conditions. However, even if an IPO is successful the money would go to the U.S. Treasury to repay it for supporting the company through bankruptcy. In addition to direct aid of $8 billion that GM plans to repay, the government also loaned GM another $49.98 billion in exchange for a 61% stake in the automaker with the understanding the GM would do a public offering of stock as a way for the government to get repaid. The same holds true for Chrysler if and when it gets around to an IPO, which CEO Marchionne has said is unlikely before 2012.

    What happens to GM and Chrysler pensioners if the PBGC takes over the funds?

    The retirees could face dramatic cuts. The PBGC promises a certain level of benefits, but $35 billion of the two automakers' promised pension benefits fall beyond the PBGC guarantees. In 2010, a single 65-year old retiree is guaranteed a maximum of $54,000 per year under the PBGC guidelines, and many GM retirees have earned benefits in excess of the PBGC limits. Last summer, the PBGC did take over the salaried pension plans belonging to GM's former subsidiary, Delphi Corp. Most of Delphi's 20,000 salaried pensioners, many of whom started out working at GM, saw their pensions cut. Thus, a termination of GM's or Chrysler's pension plans could likely result in pain for both pensioners and taxpayers.


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Has anyone seen the recent misleading ads by General Motors? In the ad the claim that they have paid off their taxpayer loan early. What they fail to mention is the fact that they used other taxpayer funds to repay this loan. The Federal Trade Commission has a site to make complaints on misleading advertising: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

It would be nice if a lot of people file a complaint. While the current union funded federal government will likely not act on the complaints, by law the complaint has to be entered into a database in which state governments can respond to complaints.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100517/ap_on_bi_ge/us_chrysler_repayment
 Quote:
The Treasury Department said Monday it will lose $1.6 billion on a loan made to Chrysler in early 2009.

Taxpayer losses from bailing out Chrysler and General Motors are expected to rise as high as $34 billion, congressional auditors have said.

Treasury said Monday that Chrysler repaid $1.9 billion of a $4 billion loan, which was extended before the company filed for Chapter 11. The government hopes to get another $500 million from the company that emerged from bankruptcy, Chrysler Group LLC.

Treasury officials said that the government had no plans to boost its stake in the new Chrysler to cover those losses. It also acknowledged another $1.9 billion in potential losses from a separate loan that had been made to the company that went through bankruptcy proceedings. It indicated slim hopes of recouping much if anything from that separate $1.9 billion loan.

The original $4 loan was made in January 2009, when the Bush administration was scrambling to rescue Chrysler, GM and their auto financing arms.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated in March that the government's $85 billion bailout of the automakers would cost taxpayers $34 billion.

Much of it will depend on how much the government recovers from its eventual sale of nearly 61 percent of GM and about 10 percent of Chrysler.

GM has said it could conduct a public stock offering later this year. Chrysler officials have said a public stock offering is not likely before 2011.

The Treasury Department made the announcement about the loss from Chrysler on a day when GM reported its first quarterly profit in nearly three years. That moved GM closer to a stock offering that would repay at least part of the $43 billion it owes the government.

Chrysler Holding is the parent company of the old Chrysler. It is owned by private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management. Cerberus bought Chrysler from Daimler AG in 2007.

Chrysler came close to running out of money at the end of 2008, so the U.S. government stepped in, authorizing $15.5 billion in aid and appointing Fiat SpA to run the new Chrysler after it emerged from bankruptcy protection. The old Chrysler's assets, along with its finance arm, became Chrysler Holding.

Treasury said it has received repayments of $3.9 billion to date, including the $1.9 billion repayment and a $1.5 billion loan paid off by Chrysler Financial. Chrysler also assumed $500 million of Old Chrysler's debt, reducing the debt to the government.


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100610/pl_mcclatchy/3531144
 Quote:
The federal government didn't exhaust all its options before it committed tens of billions of taxpayers' dollars to bail out the American International Group during the height of the 2008 financial collapse, according to a new report from a congressional watchdog panel.

The Congressional Oversight Panel , which was created to monitor the spending in the 2008 bank bailout bill known as the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, detailed in its latest monthly report the government's extraordinary rescue of AIG and its lingering effects on taxpayers and the financial markets.

AIG, once one of the largest and most successful insurance companies in the world, collapsed in 2008 when it couldn't meet the collateral demands of its customers. The firm, the oversight panel said, had an "insatiable appetite for risk" but a "blindness to its own liabilities."

When it was clear that AIG was going to collapse, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department stepped in to save it. The government provided more than $100 billion in assistance, and the oversight report says it's unclear whether taxpayers will ever be repaid in full.

McClatchy reported Tuesday that then-Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and senior Federal Reserve officials pushed the rescue either without understanding AIG's financial situation and the risks it posed to taxpayers — or were less than candid about one of the largest corporate bailouts in U.S. history.

In addition, McClatchy reported that AIG, the company through which more than $90 billion in federal money flowed out the back door to some of the same Wall Street banks whose risky behavior fueled the nation's financial crisis, is now being accused of short-changing its customers.

Attorneys for hundreds of injured workers say AIG is dragging out insurance payments that their clients need to cover home mortgages, failing to pay full compensation benefits and refusing to pay medical bills.

A key finding of oversight panel's new report is that the government "failed to exhaust all options" before committing the first $85 billion to the AIG rescue.

The government has said — and said again Wednesday in response to the report — that it was under extraordinary pressure and had to move quickly to prevent the chaos that would have resulted from a meltdown of AIG, which was linked to major financial firms around the world.

Elizabeth Warren , the Harvard professor who chairs the oversight panel, said the panel doesn't agree with that all-or-nothing conclusion.

"The panel rejects that analysis," she said in a conference call Wednesday. "Time was short in part because of the decisions that had been made over the preceding three days and the preceding three months."

As early as the summer of 2008, for example, there were signs that AIG was in serious trouble. The government could have acted earlier and more aggressively to organize a private rescue of AIG, but it was focused on another company at the time and left AIG to try to arrange its own private financing.

Treasury spokesman Andrew Williams countered that it's "easy to speculate about how things might have been done differently, had there been more time."

However, he added, the "choices and tools available to the government were extremely limited and the potential outcomes were deeply uncertain. At that perilous moment, we took the actions that were most likely to protect American families and businesses from a catastrophic failure of another financial firm and an accelerating panic."

He also said that "we learn nothing new from this report," and that the Treasury Department "has spent more time in meetings with (the oversight panel) answering questions about the decisions made on September 15 (2008) than the government had to make those decisions."

AIG said in a statement that, "We are well on our way to remaking AIG into a more streamlined and focused company. AIG is focused on repaying taxpayers, strengthening our companies, and building shareholder value."


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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One Year After Its Bankruptcy, GM Is Still Married to the UAW:
  • the “UAW bailout” — engineered by a union-beholden Democratic president — did not address Detroit’s structural problem. Indeed, experts say the automakers missed a once-in-a-generation opportunity to fundamentally change the industry, scrub its union culture, and enter the 21st century with a modern, union-free business model like their U.S.-based Japanese, German, and Korean competitors.

    The UAW agreed to significant concessions in return for staying in the shop, including $14 an hour wages for new hires, a wage freeze on existing employees, and a no-strike commitment at GM and Chrysler until 2015. But that was then, this is now.

    The UAW has a short memory when it comes to the outrageous union benefits that drove automakers to the brink. With the industry still on its back, deeply in debt, and just showing the first signs of profitability, the UAW this week raised the volume on demands that the industry return to business as usual.

    “(Ford) is making lots of profits and if we couldn’t strike, we’d have nothing to force them to get back what we’ve given up over the last two years,” says UAW official Gary Walkowicz as he targeted Ford, which — unlike GM and Chrysler — got no assurances regarding labor stoppages.

    The union’s new president, Bob King, also signaled that UAW workers would already be looking to recover the 2009 concessions. King vowed the union would win back concessions — he’s already won tuition payments for hourly workers (try finding that perk in any other industry!) — and said “we are going to pound on” automakers to unionize new plants.

    This is Detroit’s nightmare. Having saved the union — and the company — from wrenching restructuring, Washington’s “drive thru” bankruptcy did nothing to cure the Detroit Three of their flawed shop culture: That is, they have two managements under one roof.

    “There is no evidence that they really rethought the problem,” says Michael Levine, distinguished research scholar and senior lecturer at NYU School of Law. “That is what a true bankruptcy does. It turns you loose to rethink the problem.”

    “But politics played a part because the government wanted it over with. Government should have made sure they were on the road. Instead, government paved the road,” Levine adds, arguing the feds were right to step in — but should have stopped at guaranteeing supplier contracts.

    Professor Lynn Lopucki of UCLA Law School admires the legal dexterity of the Obama team, but agrees however that the quick bankruptcy success may be the enemy of long-term health. “It was quite a legal success, but nothing was done to improve operations.”

    In other words, Big Labor is still there. And it’s getting hungry again.

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 Quote:
Taxpayers could profit on pre-owned GM
(Reuters) - When GM was sputtering toward collapse last year, it was hard to see how the U.S. auto market leader could keep selling cars -- let alone how it could one day sell itself as a success story to investors.

Deals

But almost a year after emerging from an unpopular government-funded bankruptcy, GM is driving toward a stock listing that could deliver a paper profit to U.S. taxpayers and an important political win for the Obama administration.

Analysts estimate that a GM initial public offering could value the company between $70 billion and $90 billion -- above the peak of the automaker's market value near $60 billion in 2000 when it was riding high in a booming market for SUVs.

GM and the U.S. Treasury are now readying an initial public offering of GM stock that would reduce the U.S. government's nearly 61 percent ownership stake.

The Treasury, which has hired Lazard Ltd (LAZ.N) as adviser on the IPO, said on Thursday it expected to sell part of its stake when GM goes public as early as the fourth quarter.

JPMorgan Chase & Co and Morgan Stanley are set to be named underwriters for the GM deal, a source told Reuters on Friday.

Figuring out how investors will value the new GM is tricky, but analysts say trading in bonds issued by the pre-bankruptcy automaker and a comparison with its closest rival, Ford Motor Co (F.N), underscore the surprising scale of its turnaround.

Any equity value for GM above $70 billion will result in a paper profit for the U.S. Treasury, which poured more than $50 billion into GM and retains a 60.8 percent ownership stake.

"Everybody will look at this valuation as a sign of success for this corporation and the bailout," said a person who has worked with the Obama administration's autos task force, but who was not authorized to discuss the matter for attribution.

Based on bonds issued by the old GM, the new GM could be worth as much as $88 billion after going public again.

The $27 billion in bonds issued by the pre-bankruptcy GM represent a 10 percent equity stake in the new company under the terms of the restructuring negotiated by the White House.

The old GM bonds have been trading at between 31 cents and 32.5 cents on the dollar this week as talk of an IPO heated up. That represents an implied equity value of between $8.4 billion and $8.8 billion for bondholders and up to $88 billion for the whole company.

A valuation for GM at the high end of that range would also mean taxpayers could be sitting on unrealized profits of about $10 billion on the government's stake in the automaker.

reuters
Most of the GM plants won't be shutting down this summer as they used to do because of demand.


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Plants have to shut down every summer for re-tooling. If they aren't re-tooling it means that they aren't coming out with anything new. Are you saying GM is becoming stagnant? I worked in the auto industry for 10 years, re-tooling is a necessity not an option.

Also from your story:

 Quote:
U.S. auto sales are expected to rise 10 percent to over 11.5 million vehicles in 2010 after tumbling to a 27-year low last year. But most expect a still-tentative recovery in 2011.


Last year was a 27 year low. This year sales are up 10% over a 27 year low.

Suddenly after a ten percent rise from a 27 year low, they can't shutdown in the summer like they always do for re-tooling? This is amazing.

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They still have to shut down but instead of the normal 2 months it will be less for most of the plants because of demand.


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So a 10% increase over a 27 year low makes them shut down less than they ever did? That does not make any sense at all.

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Sure it does. It's not like they have the same workforce or inventory they did 20 years ago. With the new increase in demand they have to shorten their downtime. Pretty good for a company that just got out of bankruptcy like a year ago though.


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Even if GM is doing a little better in the short term (which isn't that surprising, given the federal bailout), that doesn't address the point made in what I posted yesterday. The structural problems are still there and the UAW is already talking about taking back the few concessions they made as part of the bailout. So all the feds did was kick the can down the road a bit.

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They're talking about the tax payer ending up with a profit. That's better than "a little better". This is looking like the bailout worked.


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You're a fucking retard.


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I could have posted a fact about how you're wrong but you would still react in the same way.


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Heh.

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A fact would be nice but how you feel about something isn't a fact Rex. A fact is something like most of the GM plants having a shorter summer shutdown time this year or that it's looking like the GM bailout just might end up profitting taxpayers.


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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
They're talking about the tax payer ending up with a profit. That's better than "a little better". This is looking like the bailout worked.


Short term profits don't equal long term institutional stability. Just ask anyone working in the housing market or banking industry.

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Both of those non-union correct?


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