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http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazines/wizard/WZ20031222-five.cfm Michael Turner admits that the blonde girl with the red eyes on the cover to Superman/batman #8 is indeed Supergirl. Let this be the last time for a while and let DC give us a character that makes sense and is likeable...at the same time. Apparently she will have the midriff of the animated Supergirl, but also look like an updated version of the classic kara model???? You got me...As long as she isn't from the future, the past, or a robot..I don't care ... Suposedly this week Superman #200 also does away with the Byrne Superman and aligns us with the new updated Superman: Birthright origin. Poor MOTA must be having hyperventilating panic attacks......
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Mota hopes older fans choke on their Supergirl :)
Maybe the next generation of fans will be more open to the idea of change and leaving the past where it belongs...
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heh... ![[biiiig grin]](images/icons/grin.gif) Sue me... silly Kara and goofy Lois are my 2 favorite parts of the Superman mythos...understandably I can live without that Lois as times have changed socially (and I still own the majority of those whacky, fun tales). But I still see no reason there can't be or shouldn't be a Kara-Supergirl. That's not a debate topic it's my opinion. But honestly, if they do something that makes no sense and further confuses the Superverse I'd rather have no supergirl at all... I'm of 2 thoughts on this subject. Give me a Kara that makes sense or have absolutley no Supergirl-or a completely different Supergirl that fits new continuity. Just don't screw over both schools of readers. atleast give one group what they want and don't piss off both. I can always live in the past if I have to. I just want it done right or not at all.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Mota hopes older fans choke on their Supergirl :)
Aren't you two guys about the same age?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Maybe the next generation of fans will be more open to the idea of change and leaving the past where it belongs...
This from the guy that says that Man of Steel should be the Superman origin "for ever end ever". YOU are not open to change. By the way, I'm the next generation (from your perspective at least) and I'm more than open to change.
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The Case of the New Fan vs the Old Fan.
At stake Supergirl; New character that isn't Kryptonian or Old version that takes away from the core concept of Superman.
Ok, consider yourself "sued".
Argue your case :)
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Actually, the case would be:
OLD Non-Kryptonian Supergirl versus NEW updated Kryptonian Supergirl.
The irony of your rants is that you state that the old Superman universe should be forgotten simply because it's old, when, by now, the Universe you defend has become old! You attack people for not letting go of the older Universe when you don't let go of the "new" one.
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The Post Crisis Universe hasn't become old and Linda Danvers IS an updated Supergirl.
Replacing new things with old updated things is not the way to go, unless your aim is to please people who have spent a decade and a half complaining...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The Post Crisis Universe hasn't become old
I can't talk about titles I haven't read, but at least the Superman titles have gotten ooooooooooooooooooooooooold. You know why you can't tell if they're old or not? Because you've aged with them. Face it, the same thing that happened to Silver Age Superman fans in Crisis is happening to you right now.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
and Linda Danvers IS an updated Supergirl.
That's your discussion with Pig Iron, I kinda like Linda Danvers. However, for her own good, she should be updated as soon as she gets old and nobody knows what to do with her.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Replacing new things with old updated things is not the way to go,
It's not old if it's updated. Can't be old. Go read the definition of old. You'll find "something not updated, buddy" right next to a picture of the cover of Man of Steel #1.
The current Super-book situation is the same one lived in the last days of pre-Crisis. The ONLY difference is that now you like the comics that should be wiped (from a continuity point of view) in order to move on.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
unless your aim is to please people who have spent a decade and a half complaining...
Or, people who like good stories and don't buy the books for the fucking logo in the cover...
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Linda Danvers = confusing.
Kara Zor-El = The original Supergirl, cousin of Superman and survivor of Argo city. Not confusing.
My thinking is you have a Supergirl that is honest to the original or is the original or don't have one at all. Batman isn't weaker as a character because he has 15 junior batmen running around..how is superman? Is Kara his dad? his mom? He was a baby when he left krypton..He knows no one..his alienation and loneliness is still there. if kara is another loner then they are strictly 2 loners with a shared history and maybe a familial relation...it would still be lonely as hell and having someone around his junior would let him be a father or brother figure that he will inevitably become...
Your opinion that Superman is weakened as a character if he isn't the lone Kryptonian doesn't make any sense. He is still basically alone as far as having relations with kryptonians goes.... but he is so close to us as humans he isn't lacking in friendly and amorous relations. He has a surrogate family which Kara would sort of be an extension of she would be a stranger as much as anyone else.
When another Martian popped up it didn't weaken Jonn Jonnz' character.... it just added new angles and story possibilities....
Does it make you cry because Supes is lonely? Hell no it doesn't so what emotional benefit is there to having him be the sole survivor of a dead planet other than your nitpicking? None.
Now Martian Manhunter should be considered lonely..he looks nothing like a human...he has green skin and has a bizarre appearance in even humanoid form...
Superman walks around like everyone else because he is human... having one or 2 more kryptonians just makes more story possibilities..he still comes froma dead planet where 99.9999 percent of the population is dead.
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I may just ahve to visit my comics shop now. So they went with the Birthright origin despite MOTA's furious incessant internet campaign to prevent just that? He shoulda tried just a wee bit harder. 
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Quote:
Maybe the next generation of fans will be more open to the idea of change and leaving the past where it belongs...
Hello, Kettle, you're black. . .
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People still read Superman, do they? Huh.
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I don't read Supes, but I will when my favorite comes back...unless they dork me again and I'll never buy a non -reprint superman book ever again..that is my solemn promise...
Superman basically sucks because no one knows how to write him on a consistent basis.....
i'll definitley check out the books debuting this supergirl and if it is kara I'll support any book she stars in....
but superman can bite me until someone comes along who can actually write him...ala Morrison...Stern or Byrne...
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Whuzzis? Supergirl's coming ?
He fixes the cable?
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Quote:
Aren't you two guys about the same age?
Kara fans are around 50. I'm not even 30.
Quote:
This from the guy that says that Man of Steel should be the Superman origin "for ever end ever". YOU are not open to change. By the way, I'm the next generation (from your perspective at least) and I'm more than open to change.
It's not change if it happened before 
If it happened before and it's being brought back is because the people in power right now are some of the ones that spent the last 17 years whinning about change and now that they can do something about it they're bringing back the past.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Supergirl Web Site P.I., you should look at that site, it might give you a different perspective on Linda and maybe you won't be confused anymore...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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And now you're the one whining about change. How does this make you any different from anyone else? You're the same as the people you're complaining about.
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It's not change if it already happened before.
I welcome change, I love change... when it's justified, makes sense and it's honest change, not when it's middle aged so-called writers trying to bring back their lost childhood either because middle-aged so-called readers demand them to do it or because the choose to do it.
Show me change, real change in comics, and I bet I was for it when it happened, it was justified and it was real, not the return of an outdated status quo.
For readers like you turning the Wasp back into a human after Heroes Reborn is "change" while having made her a butterfly in the first place was wrong, while for me the opposite is true.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
It's not change if it already happened before.
Well, guess what? It happened before 1986 when Byrne did Man of Steel, also. The responses to that series ran the gamut from "It's horrible, he's CHANGED EVERYTHING" to "It's horrible, he hasn't CHANGED ANYTHING"
I welcome change, I love change... when it's justified, makes sense and it's honest change, not when it's middle aged so-called writers trying to bring back their lost childhood either because middle-aged so-called readers demand them to do it or because the choose to do it.
Guess what again? Byrne was a middle aged writer who used elements of various interpretations of Superman from his childhood and brought them back BECAUSE HE CHOSE TO.
Show me change, real change in comics, and I bet I was for it when it happened, it was justified and it was real, not the return of an outdated status quo.
In the genre of decades old trademarked characters, you're not going to find real, permanent, lasting change that makes an impact. The publishers are far more interested in making money off of licensing than they are off of telling good stories. The status quo has only really been altered once: Crisis. And even that is slowly being undone. If you want, real permanent lasting change, I suggest you stop reading Superman titles, for one. Because it's not going to happen in mainstream Marvel or DC titles.
For readers like you turning the Wasp back into a human after Heroes Reborn is "change" while having made her a butterfly in the first place was wrong, while for me the opposite is true.
Ok, first off, you obviously don't know a damn thing about me to go around claiming what change means to me. Personally, I don't give a shit what happens to the Wasp. She's been a useless character for damn near the entire time she's been around. Turned into insect woman? Don't care. Turned back? Don't care. Turned into Mega Wasp? Again, don't care. These types of so-called changes are quick fix sales gimmicks and not real change or character development. They're quickly forgotten by both the fans and the creators. Hell, even Kurt Busiek didn't touch that one.
And you're still the pot calling the kettle. Deal with your hypocrisy, Mota. Your act has gotten old and stale.
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Quote:
Quote:
The publishers are far more interested in making money off of licensing than they are off of telling good stories
Bullshit.
Barry Allen had been dead for four years when he got his own TV show.
Huntress stopped being Batman's daughter 17 years ago and that didn't stop her from being his daughter again last year on TV.
Licensing has NOTHING to do with what happens in comics, so come up with a better argument.
And change in comics happens all the time, some is more permanent than another but it happens.
Kyle Rayner
Clark & Lois being married
Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair.
So instead of trying to make excuses for the hacks and claim that change will never happen in trademarked characters owned by evil corporations, you should try looking around at what's actually been happening in comics in the last 17 years.
What Waid's doing with Superman and Loeb's doing with Supergirl is the equivalent of Barbara Gordon getting up from her chair and becoming Batgirl again for no good reason.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Licensing has a HELL of a lot to do with it. But I suppose John Stewart being the Green Lantern in the JLA comic now is just a coincidence, right? Why don't you take a look around? Notice that Toad in X-Men greatly resembles the movie version? Or all the Hugh Jackman look a like covers they've done in the past few years? Batman quickly went from using batarangs to scale buildings to that neat little gadget from the Burton film with no explanation. (a change that works, and makes sense for once.)
Kyle Rayner? No problem with Kyle Rayner other than being written poorly 90% of the time. But just this year we've seen rumors of Hal coming back to Green Lantern. At this stage, they're still rumors, and I hope they stay that way. But once again, as soon as the Justice League cartoon took off, here's John Stewart, resplendant in his animated show uniform, complete with green glowing eyes. After years of him also being in a wheelchair, I might add.
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In the first place don't compare DC to Marvel when it comes to how they explode their characters in other media.
DC has always been better at it than Marvel.
As for John in the toon in later in the comics... you forget that before John there was Kyle (NOT Hal) in the Superman toon.
Yeah, there are rumors of Hal coming back...
...there were rumors last year...
...and the year before...
...and the year before that...
...and the year before that...
...and the year before that...
and so on for a decade.
Do the current rumors have more weight than previous ones? Yes, doesn't mean they're unique.
Doesn't mean that Barry Allen didn't get a TV show after he died just like Batgirl appeared in a movie as Alfred's niece and later in the TV show as Oracle in a wheelchair while Huntress was Batman's daughter.
COMIC BOOK CONTINUITY has nothing to do with how DC markets their characters outside comics.
That some editors want to imitate what's successfull in those adaptations is a choice, not something that happens just because.
Huntress still isn't Batman's daughter, Barry's still dead and Oracle's still in a wheechair, regardless of her having been in a movie a few years ago.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
In the first place don't compare DC to Marvel when it comes to how they explode their characters in other media.
Do you mean exploit?
DC has always been better at it than Marvel.
Better at what? Exploiting their characters? They're both pretty damn good at it, as witness to the multiple franchise/family titles they have: Superman, Batman, X-Men, Spider-Man.
As for John in the toon in later in the comics... you forget that before John there was Kyle (NOT Hal) in the Superman toon.
No, I haven't forgotten that. Just like I haven't forgotten that while he was named Kyle and had Kyle's occupation, he looked like Hal, had an origin like Hal's and fought one of Hal's main villains.
Do the current rumors have more weight than previous ones? Yes, doesn't mean they're unique.
I never said they were. But we now have, in addition to John, Kilowog, and the Guardians back. More on the way? Perhaps.
COMIC BOOK CONTINUITY has nothing to do with how DC markets their characters outside comics.
No, but the success of outside markets has A LOT to do with how the comics themselves are subsequently handled. Had the Flash tv series been a success, there's a damn good possibility Barry Allen would be running around in Flash right now. A lot of people want to see that. Not me, but a lot of people do. Birds of Prey? Yeah, funny how Huntress is now acceptable to Canary and Oracle now after the show (which failed miserably, thank Gob), but beforehand they wouldn't work with her. Interesting how that works.
That some editors want to imitate what's successfull in those adaptations is a choice, not something that happens just because.
It's a choice all right, but it's not their choice. It's a marketing decision, which is what I stated, not that it happens "just because."
Huntress still isn't Batman's daughter, Barry's still dead and Oracle's still in a wheechair, regardless of her having been in a movie a few years ago.
And thank Gob for that. But had those series been successful, I bet it would be a different story. Just look at the success of Smallville, and your favorite new book, Birthright. Oh, Clark looks like Tom Welling now. And we get a nice two page splash of the Smallville cast. How nice. Oh, but that has nothing to do with Smallville, no. . .
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Have you read Superman #200 yet?
It couldn't be more anti-BR if it tried.
Have you seen the preview of Action Comics #611?... ditto.
As for Clark looking like Welling in BR that has nothing to do with actual canon.
Past glimpses of Clark's time before leaving Smallville since the show started have been consistant with previous versions and not the show.
And yes, I meant exploit.
DC has done a much better job over the years by letting the adaptations go their own way why the comics do their own thing.
Marvel, on the other hand, always tends to be driven by what's being done in other media, popular or not, successful or not.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Unfortunately I have read Superman #200, and I thought it was total shit. Completely put me off. Jiminez' pages were pretty, though.
They're both about equal in terms of what they do. Superman married Lois to sell that inane show that was on at the time, after all. Marvel and DC are not "apples and oranges." They're "red apples and green apples."
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Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Kara fans are around 50. I'm not even 30.
Pig Iron is not 50... I know a lot of Kara fans who are a lot younger than you. In fact, if a kid got into comics today it's more likely that he'll be a Kara fan, because of the version of the character that appeared on Superman Animated.
Quote:
It's not change if it happened before
Then Man of Steel wasn't change either. It introduced some changes, but, basically, it's just retelling the origin... which already happened in 1938.
Man of Steel was change. And so would be the much needed revamp that might or might not happen now.
Quote:
If it happened before and it's being brought back is because the people in power right now are some of the ones that spent the last 17 years whinning about change and now that they can do something about it they're bringing back the past.
Who is that? Do you have any names? Does this have anything to do with your Continuity Conspiracy? Are they Top Secret Agents? Is that the reason why you can't name any other writer from this conspiracy other than Mark Waid? Is Mark Waid even his real name? Is he out to get you?
MOTA, I beg you, PLEASE say something more about this Continuity Conspiracy. If you really believe in it you shouldn't be ashamed to talk about it, right?
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Quote:
It's not change if it already happened before.
I welcome change, I love change... when it's justified, makes sense and it's honest change, not when it's middle aged so-called writers trying to bring back their lost childhood either because middle-aged so-called readers demand them to do it or because the choose to do it.
Show me change, real change in comics, and I bet I was for it when it happened, it was justified and it was real, not the return of an outdated status quo.
For readers like you turning the Wasp back into a human after Heroes Reborn is "change" while having made her a butterfly in the first place was wrong, while for me the opposite is true.
Are you reading this? Do you read what you post?
1) "Middle aged so-called readers"? You mean guys that don't care about how good a story is if it defies their precious continuity? That's what you mean, right? And they cling to their childhood comics... Like Man of Steel, right?
2) "Justified change". You explained to me in another thread what you thought was "justified change". If it's got a Crisis to back it up, then it's justified. It doesn't matter if the comics NEED the revamp or not, if it's got the Crisis you think it's justified. That's what you said. You said you'd support Birthright (a comic you hate) if it had a Crisis to back it up. Your words.
But that's not a good reason for change. A Crisis is just another comic, it has no real impact. Maybe in your "continuity above all else" world it does, but not here where everyone else lives. A good reason for change is the fact that the comics suck and nobody knows what to do with the characters as they are anymore. That's why the DCU was revamped in 1985, not because the Anti-Monitor forced the Editors to do it.
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I bet MOTA was shattered when Andre the Giant turned heel.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The publishers are far more interested in making money off of licensing than they are off of telling good stories
Bullshit.
Barry Allen had been dead for four years when he got his own TV show.
Huntress stopped being Batman's daughter 17 years ago and that didn't stop her from being his daughter again last year on TV.
Licensing has NOTHING to do with what happens in comics, so come up with a better argument.
And change in comics happens all the time, some is more permanent than another but it happens.
Kyle Rayner
Clark & Lois being married
Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair.
So instead of trying to make excuses for the hacks and claim that change will never happen in trademarked characters owned by evil corporations, you should try looking around at what's actually been happening in comics in the last 17 years.
What Waid's doing with Superman and Loeb's doing with Supergirl is the equivalent of Barbara Gordon getting up from her chair and becoming Batgirl again for no good reason.
Change in comics happens "all the time"?! The times you've mentioned are exceptions, and none of them would have happened if they weren't comercially viable. Most of the stuff that happens has no impact a year or two after it happened. There's no point in reading comics like that. Doesn't stop some people from buying them even though they don't like them assuring that they keep being published...
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Quote:
Licensing has a HELL of a lot to do with it. But I suppose John Stewart being the Green Lantern in the JLA comic now is just a coincidence, right? Why don't you take a look around? Notice that Toad in X-Men greatly resembles the movie version? Or all the Hugh Jackman look a like covers they've done in the past few years? Batman quickly went from using batarangs to scale buildings to that neat little gadget from the Burton film with no explanation. (a change that works, and makes sense for once.)
Kyle Rayner? No problem with Kyle Rayner other than being written poorly 90% of the time. But just this year we've seen rumors of Hal coming back to Green Lantern. At this stage, they're still rumors, and I hope they stay that way. But once again, as soon as the Justice League cartoon took off, here's John Stewart, resplendant in his animated show uniform, complete with green glowing eyes. After years of him also being in a wheelchair, I might add.
Not to mention how Metropolis, Krypton and Supergirl's costume turned into their animated counterparts when Superman Animated came out, and how they're trying as hard as they can to resemble Smallville right now...
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Quote:
As for John in the toon in later in the comics... you forget that before John there was Kyle (NOT Hal) in the Superman toon.
So you think John being in the JL comic has nothing to do with him being in the animated series? It's just a happy-happy coincidence?
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
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500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
It has no impact a year or two after the fact? Clark and Lois got married years ago. Barbara was shot over a decade ago. Barry died over 15 years ago. Did you flunk basic math? (I know I flunked basic grammar (heh, beat you to it  )
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Quote:
It has no impact a year or two after the fact?
Clark and Lois got married years ago.
Barbara was shot over a decade ago.
Barry died over 15 years ago.
Did you flunk basic math? (I know I flunked basic grammar (heh, beat you to it )
Funny how you use the exact same examples as before. I already said those are the exceptions. For every lasting change there's 300 changes that last one story arc.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Quote:
Unfortunately I have read Superman #200, and I thought it was total shit. Completely put me off. Jiminez' pages were pretty, though.
They're both about equal in terms of what they do. Superman married Lois to sell that inane show that was on at the time, after all. Marvel and DC are not "apples and oranges." They're "red apples and green apples."
Not to mention that Clark and Lois were suppoused to get married in Superman #75 but the higher ups ordered that they didn't because then the relationship in the comic would be too different than it was on the live action show...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
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500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
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Funny how you use the exact same examples as before. I already said those are the exceptions. For every lasting change there's 300 changes that last one story arc.
Those 300 "changes" you'e talking about (for example, Wallace West the Dark Flash or Azrael replacing Batman) are not that, they are story arcs, they're not supposed to be long term.
Just because those tend to outnumber the long term changes doesn't mean that long term change doesn't exist.
You're confusing story arc ideas with actual, real change.
You call it the exception but that's not what it is. What it is is the change I'm trying to make you realize does exist in comics.
Grimm implied... no, downright said that I shouldn't expect long term change in comics and he' s wrong.
Change does happen and when it's real change that the characters have grown into (Clark and Lois getting married)or been pushed into (Barbara being shot) then it's permanent (or long term, however you wanna call it).
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Yeah, like they didn't tell us "Superman is dead! For real!" "There's a new Bat-Man! Forever!" "The Forever People are adults!" "Darkseid is dead!" "A new, darker, Flash has arrived ready for the new century!" "An updated Superman right in time for the new century!"
And again, you use the same examples. They are the exception. If you look hard you'll be able to find about 20 or so permanent changes in the DCU... and I bet most of those will be undone some day.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
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500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
Dude, it's not my fault that you were naiive enough to actually swallow when DC told you that Azrael becoming Batman and Wallace West replacing Wally were permanent.
You're quoting taglines used to promote story arcs.
You're not even talking about real change, you're talking about hype and the illusion of change.
You really are a young reader, aren't you? (not that there's anything wrong with that, it's a good thing).
You're confusing the illusion of change (i.e. here he is, the new Batman (Azrael)!!!) with real change (Lois & Clark getting married).
You can't distinguish between real change and fake change so you think that real change is an exception.
Like I said, change more often then not happens when a character grows into it or is pushed into it, like Lois & Clark getting married and Barbara being shot.
In the case of Batman and Azrael that was permanent change from the beginning as Bruce didn't die, he was only hurt and then got better.
In the case of Wallace and Wally that was an ongoing story.
In the case of Superman he DID die but was brought back, no different from when Buffy died and her friends pulled her out of Heaven.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,708
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,708 |
Quote:
Not to mention that Clark and Lois were suppoused to get married in Superman #75 but the higher ups ordered that they didn't because then the relationship in the comic would be too different than it was on the live action show...
Uh... Superman #75 happened in November 1992. The TV Show didn't even debut until 1993... most likely September 1993. At that time, Superman was dead. Yet that didn't affect the TV Show, now did it?
Woulda been a shitty thing if the TV Show had debuted with a dead superman, and four guys running around pretending to be him.
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