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Waa, waa, waa...
Mxy... if you read comics to have something to read while in the crapper then of course you don't need consistancy in the stories and what happened 20 years ago doesn't matter.
If, on the other hand, you read comics for the stories, then consistancy/continuity does matter.
The most succesful stories in TV, movies and comics, are those that that use continuity and are consistant with what came before.
From Star Trek to Buffy to Terminator to Matrix to Starman (the comic), these concepts used continuity and consistancy that was 40, 8, 17, five and 7 years old respectively and they caught the attention of a varied chunk of the mainstream.
Star Trek for one went from being a 60's cult classic to being a complete franchise made up of movies and four separate TV shows, all of which were consistant with themselves AND with each other.
Buffy was a succesfull 8 season TV show that was a spin off of a crappy movie... the quality of which didn't stop the creator from being consistant with it to the point of using it (remade, but used it anyway) as continuity for the TV show.
So yes, continuity DOES matter.
Consistancy DOES matter.
It doesn't matter if it was an idea that came out 20 years ago (like say the genetic link Kryptonians has to their planet) or an idea that came out 40 years ago (like say Klingons), the point is that if the story is ONGOING then it has to be consistant, not catter to the toilet heads like you and King Krypton who go to the comic book store in the hopes of finding something to kill time while dropping a load...
Today for example I stopped by the comic book store to pick up a bag of backing boards and I saw two girls (and I say girls in the loosess of terms. They were clearly in the their 20's but if I said women it might give you the wrong visual) shopping for comic books.
One of them grabbed a comic off the table and showed it to the other one and said "hey, do you remember this toon?"
The comic was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from Dreamwave...
These two girls are clearly going to read this comic with the continuity pre-conceptions brought upon from watching the TV show.
They're going to see the characters and mentally compare them to the ones they saw on TV and expect them to act the same way.
Will they be disapointed when they find out that they won't, that instead the characters are less cartoony and little more darker?
Maybe... it's 50-50 odds that they will either drop the comic and not buy the next issue or that they'll like what they see in it and want to read what comes next.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Mxy... if you read comics to have something to read while in the crapper then of course you don't need consistancy in the stories and what happened 20 years ago doesn't matter.
Shit, I've explained it so many times and you still don't get it. Let me make it as clear as I can: all I want is good fucking stories. If I'm buying a book every month (or every week in Superman's case) for ten years and the stories stop being good, in fact, they start turning worse each week, I stop buying the book. This is exactly what happened with Superman. And then I started thinking about the reasons why the book started sucking, and I came to the conclusion that it's because the writers have been dragging the story started in Man of Steel for more than a story should last. 22 or more fucking pages each week, all (suppousedly) with the same importance and relevance to the character, and, on top of all that, big changes rarely happen, and the characters aren't even allowed to age (which traps them in a period of time in which only so much can happen). No fictional story is suppoused to last forever, and much less with all the factors: 1) one chapter each week, 2) barely any real change, 3) characters can't age.
The weight of continuity is getting in the way of telling good stories, so the logic answer would be starting over like in 1986 and creating a new continuity.
How does DC justify doing a new reboot, you ask? It'd be to improve the quality of the stories, of the main story, and that's all that matters. There's no point in sticking to an old continuity if it's NOT PRODUCING GOOD STORIES ANYMORE. Even the same guys that made that continuity great in the past couldn't make any good stories with it.
There's no reason for sticking with the old continuity. No reason. The Pre-Crisis continuiy ended, and so will this one, sooner or later, and you know it. Better sooner than later, I say.
Man of Steel rocked. The first years after that rocked even more. Nothing done with Superman afterwards compares to it. Imagine getting stories as good as those again.
I know you like the Man of Steel continuity. I like it too. But it can't last forever. Just let it go. For me it ended in Superman #150.
We may not coincide in what the new continuity should be like (I'd like a touch of retro, you wouldn't), but you should at least be mature enough to see that a reboot is necessary.
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If, on the other hand, you read comics for the stories, then consistancy/continuity does matter.
The most succesful stories in TV, movies and comics, are those that that use continuity and are consistant with what came before.
From Star Trek to Buffy to Terminator to Matrix to Starman (the comic), these concepts used continuity and consistancy that was 40, 8, 17, five and 7 years old respectively and they caught the attention of a varied chunk of the mainstream.
First off, I explained the difference between those and Superman: Superman gets a new 22 (if not more) addition to the story EACH WEEK, which makes the story told since 1986 longer and more convulted than stories told over 30 or 50 years. I know continuity is a tool that can make stories very cool, but it's insane to A) Impose it to EVERYONE who likes the book or  Pretend it can last forever.
Second, using Star Trek as an example doesn't work for me. I've never seen more than five minutes of it.
Third, the Matrix sequels sucked in every possible way a story can suck.
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Buffy was a succesfull 8 season TV show that was a spin off of a crappy movie... the quality of which didn't stop the creator from being consistant with it to the point of using it (remade, but used it anyway) as continuity for the TV show.
There's several inconsistancies between the movie and the show. The show makes reference to events similar to those that happened in the movie, but they're not exactly the same. Whedon didn't respect his own continuity and I think it was a wise decition: the movie did suck, and being limited by it would have been stupid.
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It doesn't matter if it was an idea that came out 20 years ago (like say the genetic link Kryptonians has to their planet) or an idea that came out 40 years ago (like say Klingons), the point is that if the story is ONGOING then it has to be consistant, not catter to the toilet heads like you and King Krypton who go to the comic book store in the hopes of finding something to kill time while dropping a load...
I go to the shop to get good stories. You go to find a weekly addition to a decaying continuity to keep you satisfied. You, literally, pay money for someone to give you 22 more pages of that story started in 1986. It doesn't matter if the story sucks: as long as it's consistent, it satisfies you. I guess a writer doesn't need talent, after all: all he needs is to know about the continuity of the book he's writing.
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You couldn't be more wrong about your analysis of Post Crisis continuity.
The characters HAVE aged for one thing, unlike the previous continuity where Superman was 29 for 20 years.
All your complains are hollowed.
What you consider a hindrance to good storytelling IS good storytelling.
What you consider stagnations is actually growth.
What you seem to want is stories that don't relate to each other, that are independant of one another and are good or bad on their own.
Since that's the case do yourself a favor and buy the DC archives and reprints.
There's 50 years worth of material there, which is more than enough to keep you happy.
Leave the new comics, the ones that are consistant and stand as a whole to new readers, the ones you hate with a passion and want to see shot...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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You couldn't be more wrong about your analysis of Post Crisis continuity.
The characters HAVE aged for one thing, unlike the previous continuity where Superman was 29 for 20 years.
How much have they aged? A couple of years. They won't be allowed to age more than that. You'll never see a Superman comic that says "Ah, I remember 10 years ago..." to refer to something that happened in a previous in-continuity comic, unless it's a "Year One" thing or something. Unless, you get stuff like "Las year, when Superman died..." in a Man of Tomorrow issue from 1997! So everything between Death of Superman and Electric Superman happened in ONE YEAR? The engagement was off for how long, then? Days? How many minutes did Perry White have cancer?
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All your complains are hollowed.
What you consider a hindrance to good storytelling IS good storytelling.
What you consider stagnations is actually growth.
Give examples of good storytelling and "growth" after... say, 1994. The writers were the same as before.
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What you seem to want is stories that don't relate to each other, that are independant of one another and are good or bad on their own.
No, I want them all to be good. If they relate to each other and are good they work for me. YOU, on the other hand, don't care if they're good or not, as long as they relate to each other.
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Since that's the case do yourself a favor and buy the DC archives and reprints.
There's 50 years worth of material there, which is more than enough to keep you happy.
I could say the same to you: Byrne's run is being reprinted. Go buy that and leave today's comics alone.
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Leave the new comics, the ones that are consistant and stand as a whole to new readers, the ones you hate with a passion and want to see shot...
What new Superman comics are consistent and stand as a whole to new readers?!
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Unless, you get stuff like "Las year, when Superman died..." in a Man of Tomorrow issue from 1997!
I mean "Instead, you get stuff like "Last year, when Superman died..."". Don't wanna risk editing the post since the boards are screwy.
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I would hope, that when DC, Marvel, etc, hire someone to write for their books, it's because that writer offer's something fresh and compelling. Even if they assign a writer to "re-hash" an older existing concept, it should be that writer's "spin" on it.
Anyway I do believe in continuity and established character traits, but not the hampering of creativity. I feel writer's should learn continuity, and look for loop-holes. This way if they plan to use continuity they can find someway to put their own creative "spin" on that continuity without screwing up what someone else has already built.
"Life ain't nothin' but bitches and money" - Ice Cube
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I don't think ignoring something that happened before is screwing up the work of the writer who wrote that. The work is still there, it can still be enjoyed. Ideally (in an utopic DC Comics) if a writer wants to ignore what goes before, he does it. If the writer after that one choses to re-integrate the ignored stuff and ignore the work of the previous writer instead, he can do so too. If someone after that has a way to integrate everything, he can do so too.
What some continuity obsessed people (Moty) fail to see is that their opinion is as valid as any other opinion. Some like continuity, some don't (I think I'm between those two). Why should the people who like continuity be taken into consideration when the comics are made and not the ones who don't like it? Why can't both be taken into consideration?
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Fifteen! This is it, Dude! Let's take that hill!
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I told that kraut a fucking thousand
times I don't roll on shabbas.
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Mid-Nite has the right idea.
Mxy, you're approach is pathetic, chaotic and not at all interested.
What you're suggesting is that if a writer wants to ignore Gwen Stacy dying he should and continuity be damned but then another writer could come along and ignore what the first writer did and make it so Gwen's dead again.
Historically speaking, every time that approach is used in comics it ends up making for the worst kind of stories, the least memorable ones and the ones that others come along to fix or downright ignore as if they had never happened.
I prefer Mid-Nite's approach of not ignoring and instead addressing.
Like Ennis did with Punisher.
He didn't ignore the previous mini series, he addressed it in a very characteristic way; Punisher gave both Heaven and Hell the finger and went about his life, the end.
That's the best kind of approach a writer can take.
Incorporate what he wants to do with what came before, not just ignore it to feel important or to please some whinny readers...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Mid-Nite has the right idea.
Mxy, you're approach is pathetic, chaotic and not at all interested.
Pathetic? That's your opinion. Since you're pretty much a Bizarro as far as common sense goes, I'll take that as a compliment.
Chaotic? Sure, what's wrong with a little chaos?
But not interested? Fuck off. I put more thinking in tying my shoes than you do in driving a car.
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What you're suggesting is that if a writer wants to ignore Gwen Stacy dying he should and continuity be damned but then another writer could come along and ignore what the first writer did and make it so Gwen's dead again.
Yep. But you're missing a big part of it. "If a writer wants to ignore Gwen Stacy dying..." because he can make a good story out of it. If he asks me to pretend like she never died because he really thinks it's necessary for his story, I'll give him a chance and judge his story based on the quality of the writing, not on "how it fits in continuity".
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Historically speaking, every time that approach is used in comics it ends up making for the worst kind of stories, the least memorable ones and the ones that others come along to fix or downright ignore as if they had never happened.
I was mad when John Byrne deliberatedly ignored the early 90's Forever People miniseries (where the character grew into adults), making them teenagers again and giving a crappy explanation for what happened after the last issue of the Kirby series. But then I thought, if Byrne can ignore that, why can't someone ignore Byrne? I certainly would if I had the chance to write the Forever People. I realized that what Byrne did isn't such a big deal... it's not real! He didn't undo fucking History, he undid a miniseries and that can be fixed.
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I prefer Mid-Nite's approach of not ignoring and instead addressing.
Like Ennis did with Punisher.
He didn't ignore the previous mini series, he addressed it in a very characteristic way; Punisher gave both Heaven and Hell the finger and went about his life, the end.
That's the best kind of approach a writer can take.
That's a way, A way, as in ONE way and not the definite way. I recognize your way as a valid option, while you refuse to give credit to anything that doesn't sound like what comes from your brain. That's why you look like a moron.
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Incorporate what he wants to do with what came before, not just ignore it to feel important or to please some whinny readers...
Wanna talk about whinny readers? Wanna talk about being pathetic? Between me and you, who's the one who goes to every fucking comic message board and spreads his fucking intolerant shit around, to the point of annoying writers themselves (not an easy thing, don't I know about that) and getting noticed by fucking news sites? These are my opinions and just that. I find proving you wrong an entertaining mental exercise, that's the only reason why I do it. But for you your opinions are much more like that... you talk like continuity is your fucking bible. I remember Grimm told me about this 30 something guy in a comic store who was yelling to other people because they pronounced "Magneto" differently than him, and I seriously wondered if that was you...
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Hello! Do you speak English? Parla
usted Inglese? I'll say it again.
Did I urinate on your rug?
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Yep. But you're missing a big part of it. "If a writer wants to ignore Gwen Stacy dying..." because he can make a good story out of it. If he asks me to pretend like she never died because he really thinks it's necessary for his story, I'll give him a chance and judge his story based on the quality of the writing, not on "how it fits in continuity".
Pathetic.
Stories with Gwen still alive as if she had never died can be done and have been done without altering continuity.
MAYBE if fanboys like you understood that characters in comics CAN die, never come back and still have a long term effect in the stories then comic books would stop having to relly on reboots that make only the most assnine of comic book readers happy.
Even more pathetic is that you think that reboots should be used to bring back older elements that were discarted for being too stupid to last and nothing more than gimmicks when reboots are supposed to be used to reinvegorate the stories with NEW concepts, not reborn crap that only people over 50 can appreciate.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Pathetic.
It's more pathetic that you consider it pathetic, but I doubt you'll be able to understand that. It's also pathetic (not to mention funny) how worked up you get over stuff like this. If I'd known this was sensitive ground I would have talked about it earlier.
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Stories with Gwen still alive as if she had never died can be done and have been done without altering continuity.
It's not altering it. Continuity doesn't exist. It's, literally, in our minds. It's not like I going back in time and changing history. Ignoring continuity if one considers it necessary has no effect on anything.
The whole point of what I propose is that continuity could be able to co-exist peacefully with lack of continuity. A writer wants to use continuity, he uses it (I bet Geoff Johns or Mark Waid would chose to use it), while others would probably ignore it (Grant Morrison, possibly).
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MAYBE if fanboys like you understood that characters in comics CAN die, never come back and still have a long term effect in the stories then comic books would stop having to relly on reboots that make only the most assnine of comic book readers happy.
It can have a long time effect, I never said it couldn't. The keyword is "can". And, as a matter of fact, characters CAN'T die... because they're not real. Being fictional makes them immortal (PLEASE don't take what I'm saying literally... that would so sad it wouldn't be funny. well, maybe a lil') You're almost 30, man, it's about fucking time you understand comics aren't real.
I would like you to read this line: "...rely on reboots that make only the most assnine of comic book readers happy." Read it out loud. Now tell me what's wrong with it.
Hint: Man of Steel.
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Even more pathetic is that you think that reboots should be used to bring back older elements that were discarted for being too stupid to last and nothing more than gimmicks when reboots are supposed to be used to reinvegorate the stories with NEW concepts, not reborn crap that only people over 50 can appreciate.
For the 30th fucking time, I'm 18!
I don't understand that last paragraph very well. Are you referring to what I said about "a touch of retro"? I won't point out the obvious contradiction (Hint: Man of Steel) since it's become clear that you're unable to understand it. I'd like to address something else: What does this have to do with the current discussion, Moty? Why did you bring it up? Were you hurt by my last post so you tried to bring up something "hurtful" about me (the fact that I don't hate the Silver Age)? If so, please forgive me. It wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings, I was only trying to make you look silly. 
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Steve McCroskey: Jacobs, what have you got on Elaine Dickinson?
Jacobs: Well, I'm two inches taller, a better dancer, and much more fun to be with.
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You bore me, Mxy, as do your outdated views on comic book writing as well as your clear ignorance towards how comic books have been writen in the last 20 years.
See, what you want, whether you're 18, 25, 50 or 80, is Silver Age style writing where the flow of the stories was interrupted with out of continity tales (labeled imaginary stories) that did stories that didn't fit with continuity and did whatever they wanted to do.
That time is GONE, deal with it.
Join the rest of the world in the 21st Century, stop living in the 1950's, PLEASE.
DC and Marvel have been doing out of continuity stories alongside in continuity stories for years, they're called Elseworlds and What If's.
If that's not enough for the writers, if they're egos tell them that their stories, which disrespect continuity, HAVE to be told within the ongoing titles they fuck em.
Get writers who can actually tell good stories that ADD, not DETRACT, from the stories.
It's too bad that you can't see that...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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That last part was to try to explain someone with your miniscule brain what reboots are for... clearly I failed.
Your view on comics seems to be that each issue doesn't have to be connected with what came before or what comes afterwards.
I tried to show you that that style of writing is outdated but that if you are so interested in it you should read those old comics in the reprints instead of spend your time whinning about why current comics aren't like that.
If you hate current comics so bad why don't you find something you like and leave current comics to readers that can actually understand modern writing?
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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You bore me, Mxy, as do your outdated views on comic book writing as well as your clear ignorance towards how comic books have been writen in the last 20 years.
90% of the comics I've read are from the last 20 years. Just because I understand it doesn't mean I have to accept it. There's been great stuff (Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Sandman, Animalman, Starman, Preacher, etc.) but most of the stuff published by the big companies sucks, specially what came out in the early 90's.
You call me outdated yet you're stuck in the 90's and the 80's. Guess what, most readers of my age I know think a lot like me. This is the 00's, old man. You're outdated.
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See, what you want, whether you're 18, 25, 50 or 80, is Silver Age style writing where the flow of the stories was interrupted with out of continity tales (labeled imaginary stories) that did stories that didn't fit with continuity and did whatever they wanted to do.
That's what this is about, letting the writer do what he wants to do. In my opinion he can follow continuity or ignore it. I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy forced stories. I don't care if this coincides with what happened in the Silver Age. Do you know why we get so many crappy comics? Because writers get gigs they can't refuse (money is money) but not everyone likes continuity. So they're forced to learn a continuity they don't care about and work with it, and that work is mediocre. That same writer may have produced the best stories ever with that same character if he had been given complete freedom.
Another thing: So I like "Silver Age style writing"... I suppouse, then, that in the Golden Age the stories weren't interrupted by out of continuity stories. So we could say you like "Golden Age style writing".
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That time is GONE, deal with it.
As is the Golden Age... and the 90's.
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Join the rest of the world in the 21st Century, stop living in the 1950's, PLEASE.
Oh, look who's talking...
I never lived in the 50's in the first place. You know more about the Silver Age than I do.
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DC and Marvel have been doing out of continuity stories alongside in continuity stories for years, they're called Elseworlds and What If's.
That's different. You don't get whole runs under the Elseworld label, do you? Or Elseworlds where the change is so small it barely makes any difference?
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If that's not enough for the writers, if they're egos tell them that their stories, which disrespect continuity, HAVE to be told within the ongoing titles they fuck em.
Get writers who can actually tell good stories that ADD, not DETRACT, from the stories.
It's too bad that you can't see that...
What I get from that is that there's a certain kind of writer that you don't like, and that you think those writers shouldn't be allowed to write in normal comic books only because they repulse you.
How can you be so intolerant?
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Your view on comics seems to be that each issue doesn't have to be connected with what came before or what comes afterwards.
NO!!!!!!!! It can be connected. It can also not be connected. A whole 30 issue run can be connected while the next 40 issue run can not be connected. It's up to the writer. The writer's purpose is telling good stories.
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I tried to show you that that style of writing is outdated but that if you are so interested in it you should read those old comics in the reprints instead of spend your time whinning about why current comics aren't like that.
It hasn't been tried before, not like I'm suggesting. Maybe in the Silver Age the writers had more freedom than they do today, but while I enjoy certain elements of the Silver Age I'm more interested in what a modern writer has to say.
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If you hate current comics so bad why don't you find something you like and leave current comics to readers that can actually understand modern writing?
I don't read stuff I don't like. It's a crazy little thing I do: when I don't like a book I don't buy it. I just read a few things (like Moore's ABC line) and I wish every comic could be like this.
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Sorry to break it to you, but considering that comics in the past four years have been writen in a 60's style there's nothing wrong with wanting things to continue from where they left off int he 80's and 90's since those comics were superior to the crap that's been going on lately.
Sales in the Superman comics are in the toilet for a reason and that reason has nothing to do with what John Byrne did and everything to do with what Eddie Berganza has been doing.
Yet peoplelike you have hard time understanding that, so instead of accepting things they blame something that happened 17 years ago.
And I do like Golden Age writing, it was more mature than the crap you keep hoping comes back.
Do yourself a favor, learn more about the medium before you hold the SA in the reverence that you do.
And yes, you can get long runs in Elseworlds... John Byrne proved it with not one, not two but THREE continuing Generations sagas.
Others did it before with two Kamandi Elseworlds projects that were related to each other, Kamandi At Earth's End and Superman At Earth's End.
And in 94 DC did a two parter Elseworlds story in the Superboy and Adventures of Superman Annuals.
That ignorant writers and readers choose to ignore these facts doesn't mean that such thing have never happened, it just means they're ignorant.
And what the hell is normal comic books?
How do you define normal comic books?
Don't answer, that was a rethorical, I already know what your definition of a comic book is...
And my "intolerance" is the end resule of readers like you bashing and insulting and attacking the best attributes in comics with their
it's happened before, it'll happen again
comics were before before Crisis
John Byrne's the devil
John Byrne killed Superman
Superman died in Man of Steel
BRING back Kara Zor-El!!
Superman can't be the only Kryptonian, I want more, more, more
and anyone that disagrees with the above is wrong".
Well, I disagree with the above and am not wrong, how about that?
People that want the above are stuck in the past and refuse to see that growth and change in comics is a good thing.
CHANGING things so they're the same as they were before is NOT change, is dragging the past forward to please the few.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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NO!!!!!!!! It can be connected. It can also not be connected. A whole 30 issue run can be connected while the next 40 issue run can not be connected. It's up to the writer. The writer's purpose is telling good stories.
And that happens all the time without continuity being doomed and gloom and ignored.
JMS does it in Spider-Man.
He respects what came before, doesn't ignore it, doesn't address it and doesn't invalidate it.
You don't like writers like JMS and Geoff Johns, who respect continuity by using it and by not using it.
You prefer writers like Morrison and Waid who make a big deal about who continuity has reached out from comic books and is chooking the creativety out of them making it so they can't breath.
Well, choke away I say. If these writers can't produce good stories using continuity (or not using it ) then they should look for work elsewhere...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Sorry to break it to you, but considering that comics in the past four years have been writen in a 60's style there's nothing wrong with wanting things to continue from where they left off int he 80's and 90's since those comics were superior to the crap that's been going on lately.
So, let me get this straight, you think it's wrong to bring back the 60's but it's ok to bring back the 90's?! What's the fucking difference?! The only difference I see is that you like the 90's and you hate the 60's. That's not big enough, believe it or not.
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Sales in the Superman comics are in the toilet for a reason and that reason has nothing to do with what John Byrne did and everything to do with what Eddie Berganza has been doing.
Yet peoplelike you have hard time understanding that, so instead of accepting things they blame something that happened 17 years ago.
Okay, real slow so you get it this time:
IIIIIIIIIII lllliiiiiikkkkkkeeeeee mmmmmmmaaaaannnnn ooooooofffff ssssssttttttteeeeeeeeeeeeeellll,,,,, iiiinnnn fffffffaaaaacccccttttt IIIIIIII lllllliiiiiiiiikkkkkkkeeeeee iiiiiittttt ssssssooooooo mmmmmmmuuuuuuuuccccccccccchhhhhhhhhh IIIIIIIII wwwwwwwwiiiiiiissssssssshhhhh ssssssssoooooooommmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeettttthhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiinnnnnnngggggg llllllliiiiiikkkkkeeeeeee tttttttthhhhhhaaaaaaattttttt wwwwwwwoooooooouuuuuuuuulllllllllddddddd hhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaappppppppeeeeeeeeeennnnnn nnnnnnnnnoooooooowwwwwwww.
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And I do like Golden Age writing, it was more mature than the crap you keep hoping comes back.
Intolerant hypocrit. How can you tell ANYONE "leave the past behind, it's over"?
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Do yourself a favor, learn more about the medium before you hold the SA in the reverence that you do.
Uuuuuh... I don't. I think you associated my proposal to the Silver Age because you hate the Silver Age and you hate my proposal. That's the only thing they have in common. I've read like 20 Silver Age comics, I couldn't possibly know THAT much about it.
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And yes, you can get long runs in Elseworlds... John Byrne proved it with not one, not two but THREE continuing Generations sagas.
Others did it before with two Kamandi Elseworlds projects that were related to each other, Kamandi At Earth's End and Superman At Earth's End.
And in 94 DC did a two parter Elseworlds story in the Superboy and Adventures of Superman Annuals.
Three miniseries and a bunch of comics here and there. Wow.
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That ignorant writers and readers choose to ignore these facts doesn't mean that such thing have never happened, it just means they're ignorant.
And what the hell is normal comic books?
How do you define normal comic books?
Don't answer, that was a rethorical, I already know what your definition of a comic book is...
The one that comes out each month.
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And my "intolerance" is the end resule of readers like you bashing and insulting and attacking the best attributes in comics with their
With our what?
So the fact that people keep insulting you makes you think comics should be your way only... Ah.
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it's happened before, it'll happen again
comics were before before Crisis
John Byrne's the devil
John Byrne killed Superman
Superman died in Man of Steel
BRING back Kara Zor-El!!
When have I said any of those?
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Superman can't be the only Kryptonian, I want more, more, more
Why is that opinion less valid than "Superman must be the only Kryptonian"?
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and anyone that disagrees with the above is wrong".
Heh.
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Well, I disagree with the above and am not wrong, how about that?
People that want the above are stuck in the past and refuse to see that growth and change in comics is a good thing.
May be, I don't know those people that well. However, I do know that you're stuck in the past.
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CHANGING things so they're the same as they were before is NOT change, is dragging the past forward to please the few.
Well said! Too bad you don't understand what you're saying.
On a different subject, methinks you're losing it. Get some rest.
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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And that happens all the time without continuity being doomed and gloom and ignored.
Nu-uh. Continuity can remain intact. As the writer chooses to ignore what goes before, you may choose to ignore what the writer is doing and wait for the next guy to come along. It won't kill you to be without a comic for as long as the guy's run lasts... right?
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JMS does it in Spider-Man.
He respects what came before, doesn't ignore it, doesn't address it and doesn't invalidate it.
You don't like writers like JMS and Geoff Johns, who respect continuity by using it and by not using it.
I had no fucking idea! I thought I liked them both. Thanks for telling me, I was thinking about buying the Wonderland Flash TPB.
Lemme make this real simple: There's A and there's B. You like B and despise A. I like A and B. I like A a little better than B, but that doesn't mean I don't respect B and enjoy the occasional B comic. In fact, some of my favorite runs are B comics.
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You prefer writers like Morrison and Waid who make a big deal about who continuity has reached out from comic books and is chooking the creativety out of them making it so they can't breath.
Me liking Waid and Morrison has nothing to do with that. I like them for the same reason I like JMS and Johns: they tell good stories. A story can be one issue or a 30 issue run, I don't care. As long as it's good that's a good writer in my book.
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Well, choke away I say. If these writers can't produce good stories using continuity (or not using it ) then they should look for work elsewhere...
Waid in Flash and Morrison on JLA.
Last edited by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk; 2004-01-02 2:51 AM.
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So, let me get this straight, you think it's wrong to bring back the 60's but it's ok to bring back the 90's?! What's the fucking difference?! The only difference I see is that you like the 90's and you hate the 60's. That's not big enough, believe it or not.
Let me put it in terms I hope you undertand.
Think of the Batman movies.
One, two and three were dark, showed growth, change, etc.
Then fourth came along and was a continuation of the 60's TV show.
Was there a fifth Batman movie or did four kill the franchise?
Think long and hard about that.
It won't be till now that they're doing a fifth movie... and what are they doing? Are they following fourth or "bringing back" one, two and three?
Bringing back doesn't mean make things the same (not in this case), it means to continue what those three movies started and what the fourth one killed.
THAT'S what I want in the comics, for what was started in the 80's and 90's and then interrupted in 99 to be brought back, continued.
Too bad that's one of the many things that are over your head...
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Intolerant hypocrit. How can you tell ANYONE "leave the past behind, it's over"?
Easy... BR supporters want the past brought back, I want the character to continue growing as they were in the 80's and 90's...
One of the many things over your head.
You think that because I want things to be like in the 80's and 90's (constant growth and constant change) it means I want them to be static and mundane... those couldn't be farther from being complete opposites...
BR is making things so they're static and frozen like in the 60's.
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Three miniseries and a bunch of comics here and there. Wow
And there could be more if your idols stopped fucking around with continuity...
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The one that comes out each month
No, your definition of a comic is "continuity sucks, don't use it, do stories that contradict each other, I don't fucking care... and if continuity gets in the way just reboot, who cares".
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With our what?
So the fact that people keep insulting you makes you think comics should be your way only... Ah.
Considering that "my way" is one of one growth and change over stagnation and repetition YES.
My way over yours and King Krypton's EVERY day, no question.
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Why is that opinion less valid than "Superman must be the only Kryptonian"?
If you have to ask that then it only proves that you have NO idea of who Superman is or what the concept's all about.
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May be, I don't know those people that well. However, I do know that you're stuck in the past.
Not at all. The comics I like have change and growth. The ones readers like you, Pig Iron and King Krypton like are filled with stagnation and the same old characters doing the same old bs over and over and over again.
and current Waid is not the same one that wrote Flash.
That Waid would have shown more respect to the Post Crisis Superman than the SA fanboy working on Birthright.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Donny, were you paying attention to the dude's story?
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MOTA, shut up. You lost this argument a long time ago, well before I chimed in. You have made NO points, you have contributed NOTHING worthwhile to this debate, and all you've done is slander and degrade anybody who might have a different viewpoint than you. As I've said before, I have no qualms with people liking the Byrne/Jurgens Superman. Many who do like that version also respect the previous incarnations, and have acknowledged that the Byrne/Jurgens version will one day be replaced by another version. They're able to see the big picture and are mature enough to accept it. It's people like you, the psychotics who rage and scream that the Byrne/Jurgens version is the ONLY valid incarnation of Superman and must never be changed under pain of death, that I'm against. (And no, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that. Your fanaticism reeks of a lynch mob mentality.) Those who respect the prior incarnations are NOT "Silver Age zombies" or drooling retards who just want something to leaf over in the john. They're the TRUE fans of Superman, the people who know that he's bigger than any one particular incarnation. And even if they don't care for whatever interpretation comes up in the future, they know that their favorite version will still exist in TPBs and back issues--or on film and TV.
You, on the other hand, DON'T get it. You're every bit as "stuck in the past and incapable of breaking free of it" as you claim everybody who disagrees with you is. Take your claim that MOS "is a brand new chair that takes time to get used to." Reality check: MOS is now 18 years old. It's not a new chair anymore. And as for Birthright being "an old, comfortable sofa that just's been refurbished," guess what? That's exactly what MOS was. It was just refurbished in a manner that YOU favored. And like Birthright, MOS was a mix and match of elements of prior incarnations of Superman with some of the author's own sensibilities thrown in for good measure. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE IN PRACTICE BETWEEN THE TWO BOOKS. All your hate is based on nothing more than YOUR OWN TASTES, and you know it.
And I hate to break it to you, but a lot of the things that you claim are so destructive and ruinous to Superman have stuck in the public mind. Idyllic Krypton? Stuck. All Donner's film did was use a crystal design scheme, otherwise it's the same Krypton from the classic comics. Supergirl as a Kryptonian-like being? Stuck, thanks to the 1984 movie and the animated series. The S-shield as the House of El crest? Stuck, and it's been used in every mass media incarnation since, and will no doubt continue to. THe Phantom Zone as a Kryptonian prison? Stuck, thanks to the movies and to the animated series. The public has accepted that there are a small handful of survivors from Krypton, and it doesn't seem to bother them. Superman as an actual baby when he's sent to Earth? Stuck, right from the beginning. There's no way the test-tube fetus scenario will ever replace it. Brainiac as a computer? Stuck. That's how people think of the character and that's that. Have things from Byrne's version stuck? Yes, they have: Luthor as a tycoon and the Kents still being alive are now part of the mass media view of Superman. But much of what he did HASN'T stuck: Krypton as Vulcan 2.0, Jell-O Supergirl, Brainiac with an ultra-convoluted origin, Superman having no use for Krypton, any of his original characters, etc. And most of what Jurgens and company did certainly never stuck. I don't even think the marriage of Lois & Clark really stuck; most people still think of them as rivals. So by all rights, wouldn't it be in DC's best interest to represent Superman by combining all of the elements that HAVE stuck in the public mind, from all the different eras, and fashion a fresh incarnation from those elements that people have embraced over the decades? I think the answer is an unequivocal YES. You, on the other hand, are so hell-bent on living in 1986-1999 that you don't care if Superman becomes outdated and dies out, just so long as he dies out in YOUR pet incarnation. I'm sorry, but that's selfish and unfair.
Further, in his intro to MOS, Byrne said that maybe 30 years later someone would come along and revamp the character yet again, and that perhaps MOS would be what drew them to Superman. He KNEW his version wasn't going to last forever. It can't, it shouldn't, and it won't. Sooner or later, Superman WILL be changed yet again, and whoever does it will, like Byrne and Waid before them, mix and match elements of the past versions while adding their own spin on the legend. This is the nature of the beast. You can't keep whinging about how anyone who respects the different eras of Superman and may not be that attached to the Byrne/Jurgens vision are "living in the past," because that's EXACTLY what you're doing yourself. You blatantly refuse to let Superman grow away from 1986-1999 because you can't handle the fact that Superman has to change. And if the change in question means returning to past concepts that have been embraced by other media and the general public, so be it. I would rather judge the new incarnation of Superman based on two things:
1. Whether or not it adheres to the essential elements of the Superman mythos and
2. If it's good.
I don't need 20 or more years of backstory and "continuity" to enjoy any one version of Superman. My above two caveats are all I need. So the only one who's being a selfish slave to the past is you.
Last edited by King Krypton; 2004-01-02 6:22 AM.
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Whine, whine, whine, whine, K.K.
It's the idea of constant rebooting that I'm against, in case that was over your head.
The MoS reboot was good enough to be the last one, the character doesn't need another reboot to catter to the needsof retards like you who can't read Superman unless he's surrounded by more Kryptonians and super pets, not to mention come from a futuristic human Heaven instead of an alien world.
You are right, it be impossible for me to make any kind of point when dealing with people like you... it's still worth to try in case people that don't think like you and aren't locked into your way of thinking can come out of this and any other debate with a perspective different from yours which says "reboots are good and they should happen soon as something that I don't like is done"
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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That time is GONE, deal with it.
Join the rest of the world in the 21st Century, stop living in the 1950's, PLEASE.
Actually, we'd all be in better shape if DC and Marvel went back to doing stories like they did in the Silver Age.
Know how long it takes me to read an average modern comic?
Maybe 7 minutes.
Know how long it takes me to read an average Silver Age comic?
15-20 minutes.
In the silver age, why, there were these things called Self contained stories! There were no splash pages every other page! There were more than two words written per panel! Hell, every panel (and there were at least 6 per page) had at least two full sentences in it!!!
So, in that respect, the silver age should return! Fuck padding for trades!
Oh, and by the way, this has become a really pathetic fanboy pissing contest. So let me add my two cents...
Fuck continuity. If it wasn't for continuity obsessed fanboys, we wouldn't have had half the problems there's been since the crisis.
Hell man, it's only fictional stories. It ain't that important. Read 'em, enjoy 'em, make your own continuity.
For example... Teen Tony Stark as Iron Man... forget it! (Oh, wait, that's what Marvel did).
But either way, I think everyone knows what I mean. Remember the parts you like, ignore what you don't. And for god's sake, shut up about it. This thread should've died and been buried three pages ago.
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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Don't blame continuity fans for being too dumb to follow continuity.
There's about 50 years worth of simplistic material for you to look at in archives and back issues.
If modern comics are over your head just go read that and leave modern comics for those that can actually get it.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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...What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you read the posts you reply to, or just spout off whatever bullshit comes to mind?
Damn, I can see why everyone thinks you're such an annoying dick... it's because you are an annoying dick.
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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I did read what you said... you said you wish comics were more like the Silver Age, you made that painfully clear. In the process you insulted a large section of people that buy comics the world over because they like something you hate. Quote:
Actually, we'd all be in better shape if DC and Marvel went back to doing stories like they did in the Silver Age.
See? That's what you said.
You did bring ONE good point, though; the time it takes to read a comic.
The solution to that problem is not by increasing the number of panels per page, it's in increasing the number of pages per comic.
Instead of making them 22 pages of stories they could make them 48 or 64 pages of content a month.
As for this mentality about making up the continuity that you like and ignore what you don't... where did that come from?
You do realize that continuity affects consistancy and how the stories are told?
Whta are you proposing, that readers who don't like the idea turn the page when someone mentions that Lois and Clark are married and go on pretending that they aren't?
Lame... lame.. lame...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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...I don't know if I should bang my head against a wall, laugh, or go smoke a cigarette...
...maybe all three.
*sigh*.
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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He tastes of America 15000+ posts
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I recommend doing all three simultaneously.
He fixes the cable?
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...What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you read the posts you reply to, or just spout off whatever bullshit comes to mind?
Damn, I can see why everyone thinks you're such an annoying dick... it's because you are an annoying dick.
Believe me, he has NEVER addressed anything that people have actually said to him on ANY message board. He's become notorious for ignoring what people actually say, spouting off lies, twisting people's comments out of context when it suits his purposes, and spamming the Internet with his "worship Byrne/Jurgens continuity or die" intolerance. If he didn't spout BS 24-7, he wouldn't have anything to say.
And once again, I have no qualms with those who like the Byrne/Jurgens Superman. My beef is with those who demand that the Byrne/Jurgens Superman is a sacred cow to be upheld at all costs and that all other incarnations are inherently evil and must be eradicated, even to the point of debasing Siegel and Shuster by saying that they got their own creation all wrong (as MOTA has actually said in the past). I have just as little use for those who think their own other pet incarnation is the only valid version of Superman and that all others are inherently garbage, but that's another topic.
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I never said exactly that, asshole.
I said that Siegel & Shuster didn't get a better understanding of their character till they got to do Superboy, that what came before was a work in progress.
But that, like everything else not done in the SA, is over your head.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Mxy, I believe this is your cue....
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