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Let me put it in terms I hope you undertand.
Think of the Batman movies.
One, two and three were dark, showed growth, change, etc.
Three sucked, actually. Not as much as four, but it sucked anyway. That's the one with Two-Face and the Riddler, right? Or should I say Joker and Whackier Joker? What a way to waste Two-Face's potential, too...
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Then fourth came along and was a continuation of the 60's TV show.
Was there a fifth Batman movie or did four kill the franchise?
Think long and hard about that.
It won't be till now that they're doing a fifth movie... and what are they doing? Are they following fourth or "bringing back" one, two and three?
Bringing back doesn't mean make things the same (not in this case), it means to continue what those three movies started and what the fourth one killed.
THAT'S what I want in the comics, for what was started in the 80's and 90's and then interrupted in 99 to be brought back, continued.
First: And what's the difference between that and wanting to bring back the 60's and dismiss the 90's?! Take an objective posture and answer me that. You're attacking writers and posters for wanting to do EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, only with another period of time! On one hand you say "No, the sixties can't be brought back! They're in the past, so leave them there!" and on the other "Yeah, the 90's should be brought back! They're in the past so take them here!" Your whole argument for leaving the 60's behind was that it's in the past... but so are the 90's. You like the 90's and hate the 60's. I get it. Everyone gets it. What I don't get is why you think everyone else should think that and why every "normal" monthly comic should be like you want them to be, and if it's not the writer suddenly becomes an evil conspirational egomaniac. You call my proposal pathetic while I accept yours as an option. I have insulted you, true, but not because of your opinions, I've done it because of your hypocresy and blindness.
Second: My blind love for the Silver Age is in your head. The only reason why you associate me with the Silver Age is because the SA represents everything you don't like. If you thought more carefully you're realize my ideas don't belong to the Silver Age, just like they don't belong to the Golden Age or the "Modern" Age. Or, from another perspective, they belong to all those ages... specially to the "modern" age since the (proportionally) few good comics that come from it are the ones that have influenced me the most.
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Easy... BR supporters want the past brought back, I want the character to continue growing as they were in the 80's and 90's...
I can't believe you said that without realizing the contradiction... A Birthright fan might say "I want the character to continue growing as he was on the 60's and the 70's". You want the past brought back too.
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You think that because I want things to be like in the 80's and 90's (constant growth and constant change) it means I want them to be static and mundane... those couldn't be farther from being complete opposites...
BR is making things so they're static and frozen like in the 60's.
Where do you get that? Suddenly you've read the whole series, and what comes after it? Birthright, from what I've read, is a starting point. Again, you associate it to the 60's because it borrows elements from it... just like it borrows elements from the 80's.
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And there could be more if your idols stopped fucking around with continuity...
Continuity is in your fucking mind. It's only fucked if you let it be fucked. I think maybe you want it to be fucked because you like the thrill of harassing writers...
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No, your definition of a comic is "continuity sucks, don't use it, do stories that contradict each other, I don't fucking care... and if continuity gets in the way just reboot, who cares".
Well, thanks for clearing that up. That proves how much attention you're giving to what I say... When have I said that continuity should never be used? If I recall, I've said several times that I enjoy some comics that use continuity. "Do stories that contradict each other"... only if it's worth it. If the writer has a good reason to do it then he should be allowed to do that. "And if continuity gets in the way, just reboot, who cares..." It's funny how you simplify everything. Maybe the world is too complicated for you so you need to make it simple in order to understand it.
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Considering that "my way" is one of one growth and change over stagnation and repetition YES.
My way over yours and King Krypton's EVERY day, no question.
And you call Mark Waid an egomaniac.
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If you have to ask that then it only proves that you have NO idea of who Superman is or what the concept's all about.
My idea of Superman is as valid as yours. We should both have the oportunity to read new stories of our versions, and not just one of us.
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Not at all. The comics I like have change and growth. The ones readers like you, Pig Iron and King Krypton like are filled with stagnation and the same old characters doing the same old bs over and over and over again.
Oh yeah? Since you know so well what I like, name an issue of a comic I've read and enjoyed that is filled by "stagnation".
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and current Waid is not the same one that wrote Flash.
That Waid would have shown more respect to the Post Crisis Superman than the SA fanboy working on Birthright.
He suddenly turned evil as soon as he disagreed with you. Convenient, huh?
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I just think this quote by MOTA is fucking funny... Quote:
In the process you insulted a large section of people that buy comics the world over because they like something you hate.
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Mxy, I believe this is your cue....
I won't bother replying to the stuff he said to FNB and you... I've already covered all that in the past and I'm sure I'll cover it again.
I'm starting to think he's unable to learn.
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Truthfully, I think he has one stock argument, and like a broken record, just keeps repeating it over and over and over and over...
I mean, he insults my "Make Your Own Continuity" suggestion, when, in reality, he should be sucking my dick for suggesting it.
He's a big Byrne Superman fan, right?
Byrne's Superman was the ultimate in Make Your Own continuity! That's what Byrne did! Didn't like Superboy? Gone! Supergirl? Nope! Red/gold/blue/white Kryptonite? Out the door! Why? Because Byrne was given free reign to *gasp!* MAKE HIS OWN CONTINUITY![/B]
Hell, it happens all over in comics! Take the current Hawkman! Everything was glossed over, and Hawkman returns!
And I won't even get into the fact that I probably remember enough continuity plot points to choke a camel.
So fuck off.
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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Byrne was following a STORY that allowed for those changes, jackass, Waid's doing it to stroke his ego.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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I'm sorry, but this comment just makes me laugh:
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Considering that "my way" is one of one growth and change over stagnation and repetition YES.
My way over yours and King Krypton's EVERY day, no question.
This worthless piece of filth claims that he's all for "growth and change," but as soon as said growth and change occurs he bleats, shrieks, and wails about how everyone who thinks the Byrne/Jurgens vision is just one of many incarnations of Superman is the Great Satan and how they're destroying comics by showing respect to all the different eras. Give me a break. Who's being the champion of stagnation and repetition (which was Jurgens' stock-in-trade during his Superman run) here? MOTA wants the Superman books to stay entrenched in 1986-1999 with absolutely no deviations whatsoever, even if it means killing the character outright. How is that any different than his alleged "everyone who disagrees with me just wants the Silver Age brought back in full" lies and slanderings?
Time to change the ol' broken record, MOTA. You're not going to brainwash anyone into becoming the close-minded Byrne/Jurgens fundamentalist that you are. Accept that people have different tastes than you and grow the hell up. 
Last edited by King Krypton; 2004-01-03 7:23 AM.
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Quote:
Truthfully, I think he has one stock argument, and like a broken record, just keeps repeating it over and over and over and over...
I mean, he insults my "Make Your Own Continuity" suggestion, when, in reality, he should be sucking my dick for suggesting it.
He's too busy doing that with his own, I'm afraid.
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Denial, denial, denial.
Making it so Superman's debut happens today is NOT growth or change, asswipe, it's making it so morons like you can be happy at reading the same old outdated crap while sucking your thumb.
No more will you have to deal with anything of real interest in Superman comics, instead it'll be the same old concepts fromt he 1960's, brought back for idiots like you who had a hard time understanding the Post Crisis concepts...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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"Whine, whine, whine," "denial, denial, denial," "sucking your thumb"...there you go again, repeating the EXACT same lines over and over again like a broken record, deliberately ignoring what people are actually saying, and hypocritically ignoring the fact that you're actually describing YOUR OWN HATE SPEECH. YOU'RE in the one who in denial about being stuck in the past and being against change. YOU'RE the one sucking his thumb in denial about the inevitability of Byrne/Jurgens being superceded by another incarnation, as all the other versions of Superman have been. YOU'RE the one who's whining about people wanting all the eras of Superman to be respected and acknowledged instead. YOU'RE the one who's out to dictate to people what their opinions and tastes should be (re: you want everybody to think exactly as you think and like exactly what you like). YOU'RE the one who refuses to accept that MOS is no longer the "brand new chair" that you keep asserting it is. And it's YOU who's hell-bent on making sure that Superman stays trapped in the past even at the risk of killing the character, so long as he dies out in YOUR pet incarnation (1986-1999).
Who's the whiny zealot trying to stop the inevitable here? Take a good, hard look in the mirror and shut your fithy little mouth. You can repeat your exact same rants over and over again, but you're never going to brainwash anybody into becoming replicas of you. And since you're so quick to have a sig line that talks about how everyone has different opinions of comics, maybe it's high time you started respecting those opinions instead of trying to dictate what people can and can't like/think.
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Quote:
Byrne was following a STORY that allowed for those changes, jackass, Waid's doing it to stroke his ego.
"Allowed".
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MOTy, why haven't you replied to my post? Do you not love me anymore?  Where I come from, if you're unable to outdebate me it means you accept my arguments...
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MOTy, why haven't you replied to my post? Do you not love me anymore? 
Where I come from, if you're unable to outdebate me it means you accept my arguments...
I think he's trying to find yet another way to regurgitate his dictator-like dogma and ignore the fact that everybody's proven him wrong countless times. 
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MOTy, why haven't you replied to my post? Do you not love me anymore? 
Where I come from, if you're unable to outdebate me it means you accept my arguments...
OR... I was busy doing other stuff today that was more important than debating with blocks of concrete like you and KK...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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KK (I'm gonna add another K to that, it goes with your personality)...
KKK, as I've told you countless times, what your hero Waid's doing is not change, he's bringing back the garbage that Byrne got rid off in his reboot, garbage that you want to roll in with a smile on your face because it's only through that garbage that you can understand the concept of Superman.
Anything that doesn't follow the guidelines of Mort's garbage , for you, is not Superman nor worthy of being considered to be Superman...
Your constant rant about how in 93 Superman stopped being good and the only way to make him interesting again is to surround him with that garbage is the most idiotic piece of shit I've ever seen a fan of outdated crap like yourself say.
I will try to tell you the following one last time... IF you get it, good, if you don't get it then you must be the most stupid person on the face of this planet...
Here goes...
Just because things used to be one way once DOESN'T mean they have to be that way forever.
Reboots are TOOLS to be used in writing comics, NOT to stroke writers egos, which is what Waid's doing right now with Stupidright.
The man has claimed, in more than one occasion, that he hopes that his version (which is in reality a rip off of EVERYTHING other people came up with and has NOTHING of him in it) of Superman's origin be the ONLY one people use to understand the character.
His version is filled up with outdated stupidity dressed in modern clothing yet outdated nonetheless.
Those that call it change and an improvement do it because for them it is an improvement to surrounded Superman with other Kryptonians, to have him com from a futuristic Earth and have him be a God.
Just because those wastes of space think so doesn't make it so, all it means is that for THEM that's the only way the concept can be enjoyed.
Others, like me, can enjoy the concept for what it actually is and not because of what Mort turned into.
The story of Superman is one of the last survivor of an alien race, NOT of a God from space surrounded by other Gods.
If you can't get that small detail then it's clear that the concept of Superman is over your head and you represent the kind of audience Mort was aiming to with his stupid ideas; simplistic children and simple minded adults.
I, on the other hand, enjoy the more complex stories done between 86 and 99, after and before Superman was dumbed down to meet your criteria of what a Superman story should be like.
Mxy, consider the above a reply to whatever you said since it's clear that you and KKK share a friend or an ideology at least on what makes a good Superman story...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Whinge, whinge, whinge, denial, denial, denial, dictatorship, dictatorship, dictatorship...you just can't admit when you're beaten, can you?
Until you learn to respect the opinions and tastes of others, you might as well muzzle it. Because all you're doing is giving people a reason to hate your guts.
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Quote:
Whinge, whinge, whinge, denial, denial, denial, dictatorship, dictatorship, dictatorship...you just can't admit when you're beaten, can you?
Until you learn to respect the opinions and tastes of others, you might as well muzzle it. Because all you're doing is giving people a reason to hate your guts.
Ah, so I have to show respect to jerks that start namecalling fights when I tell them I like something they don't.
I don't think so. See, you should practice what you preach. In case you forgot this [I]war[/I] of opiniosn started with your inability to grasp the idea that something you might not like can have more merit than some 40 year old crap that you seem to be in love with...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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To paraphrase the great Brak:
"MOTA used to be temporarily insane. But now he's just stupid!"
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Ya know MOTA... the word "jerk" is soooooooooo silver age.
It's the 21st century. Care to join us?
Last edited by First National Bastard; 2004-01-04 5:46 AM.
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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zealot > noun (person) A fervent and even militant proponent of something.
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zinger- tasty bakery treat covered in coconut.
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I started reading comics around 1963, shortly after my first grade teacher bestowed the gift of literacy to me.
The Supergirl I grew up with was Kara Zor - El, who lived on Argo city with her parents until a meteor shower destroyed the lead shielding that protected the inhabitants of Argo City from certain death due to the ground beneath the lead being Kryptonite.
She was a great character with much potential, but was rarely written as well as she could have been. I liked her a Lot, though.
Then she died during Crisis On Infinite Earths. I mourned her loss as did many readers.
And we were introduced to ANOTHER Supergirl years later.
I'm not here to dispute just WHICH Supergirl is the BEST Supergirl.
All I want is a Supergirl that is written and drawn well.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
zinger- tasty bakery treat covered in coconut.
Also a cleverly conceived insult/ribbing (example: Mxy's posts on this thread in response to being flamed and slandered).
[Speaking of slander, what's the deal with MOTA calling me "KKK"? Is that supposed to be "witty," accusing me of being a Klansman?]
Last edited by King Krypton; 2004-01-04 10:59 PM.
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Quote:
Just because things used to be one way once DOESN'T mean they have to be that way forever.
I agree with that MOTA. Now why can't you apply that to Man of Steel?
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How do you feel about the recent Superman news, MOTA?
This means one side gets their version of Superman (the married Jurgens-Byrne Superman), the other side will get their version too (the single SA inspired Superman), and both sides will get a new version (a darker Superman), all at the same time, like I suggested (I swear that was a coincidence, I don't run DC).
This is a step in the right direction and I think that's awesome. Now it depends on the quality of the stories to see if this is a success or not. But, in the meantime, I'm satisfied.
Byrne/Jurgens fans that want to see their version continued should be satisfied too (I'm not one of those, though I love the Byrne/Jurgens version... and because of that I want it to be laid to rest), and Silver Age fans that want to see that version continued in a modern interpretation should be satisfied as well (I think that should be interesting... since it's modern it won't be exactly the same as in the Silver Age).
But, something tells me YOU won't be satisfied...
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Ya could fuck that boy with a new rubber, and he wouldn't be satisfied!
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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cue Richard Marx! Quote:
We work our bodies weary to stay alive There must be more to livin' than nine to five Why should we wait for some better time There may not even be a tomorrow Ain't no sense in losing you mind I'm gonna make it worth the ride
Don't you know, I won't give up until I'm satisfied Don't you know, Why should I stop until I'm satisfied
Ignore the hesitation, that ties your hands Use your imagination, and take a chance I won't let my moment of truth pass me by I've gotta make my move now or never And if they turn me loose on this town They're gonna have to hold me down
Don't you know, I won't give up until I'm satisfied Don't you know, Why should I stop until I'm satisfied Yeah
Oh, don't you know, Ain't gonna stop until we're satisfied Don't you know, We shouldn't stop until we're satisfied
Don't you know, Ain't gonna stop until I'm satisfied Don't you know, We won't give up until we're satisfied
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Quote:
Quote:
Just because things used to be one way once DOESN'T mean they have to be that way forever.
I agree with that MOTA. Now why can't you apply that to Man of Steel?
For the simple reason that the story that started with MoS hasn't ended, it's only been derailed for the last few years.
Just like what started with Year One, Emerald Dawn, God's & Monsters (which seems to have become the official name of the WW reboot), Hawkworld, etc haven't ended.
GL and Hawkman continuity, even though they don't currenly use Hal or Katar, are built upon the structure introduced in those relaunches (as shown in many recent issues of GL and the Thanagarian story arc in issues of Hawkman last year which made references to Hawkworld).
Same way with Superman.
The books were derailed by Berganza and love to please readers like K Trout and King Krypton who don't think DC has balls for undoing what Byrne did and bring back the Silver Age Krypton.
Readers who actually liked the Post Crisis comics left in droves a few years ago, they ran away from the crap being produced by DC right now.
That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the origin, it means there's something wrong with the comics being done TODAY.
For example:
Just because the Batman and Robin movie sucked doesn't mean there was something wrong with the original Batman movie.
When WB made Birds of Prey they decided to ignore B&R and go back to Batman Returns (on the TV show Catwoman was blonde and dressed in an outfit similar to the one from the movie, while Barbara wasn't Alfred's niece like in B&R).
Just because that show flopped doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the second movie, it means the show sucked.
So no, I can't say the same about Man of Steel because the problems with the comics today have NOTHING to do with the origin...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
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Quote:
How do you feel about the recent Superman news, MOTA? This means one side gets their version of Superman (the married Jurgens-Byrne Superman), the other side will get their version too (the single SA inspired Superman), and both sides will get a new version (a darker Superman), all at the same time, like I suggested (I swear that was a coincidence, I don't run DC). This is a step in the right direction and I think that's awesome. Now it depends on the quality of the stories to see if this is a success or not. But, in the meantime, I'm satisfied. Byrne/Jurgens fans that want to see their version continued should be satisfied too (I'm not one of those, though I love the Byrne/Jurgens version... and because of that I want it to be laid to rest), and Silver Age fans that want to see that version continued in a modern interpretation should be satisfied as well (I think that should be interesting... since it's modern it won't be exactly the same as in the Silver Age). But, something tells me YOU won't be satisfied...
More BS from the editor that can't make up his mind, Mxy.
If he was going to allow for the inclusion of three Supermen from three different realities then why the fuck do Superman #200, the Godfall arc and include BR as the one and only origin, why not let it be its separate thing from the start?
Like I said, more BS.
Unlike you I don't need three, four or five different Supermen in comics, one is more than enough.
See, before Berganza fuck head, reading Superman comics was a great thing.
I'd get 52 Superman comics a year, all consistant with each other and all telling one continous story.
Now to please the fuck heads like KKK and others the titles have to be broken into THREE different versions or they'll whine that DC has no balls for sticking with Byrne's version.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,326
1000+ posts
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1000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
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The Time Trust said: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
I couldn't have said it better myself. 
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 16,240
Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 16,240 |
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
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500+ posts
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The crap readers have been whinning to see come back...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,958
some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,958 |
Quote:
Pig Iron said: Just for you MOTA:
Please tell me that wasn't you bidding on this book last night. 
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
Dear Pig Iron :
Thanks for showing those OLD OLD Supergirl issue covers!! I remember reading those when I was a kid! ( I'm 46 )
I didn't think they were crap then, though the stories are quite primitive by today's standards.
I think it's ok to like BOTH the old comics and the new comics. Why Not??
I started reading comics around 1963 - 64. I like ones written now, too.
Ps - Anyone got any 1960's Fantastic Four, Avengers or X Men covers to Post?? OR Old JLA, Doom Patrol or Adventure Comics Featuring Superboy and the Legion of Super Heroes???
Have a great Day!
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 16,240
Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 16,240 |
Quote:
whomod said:
Quote:
Pig Iron said: Just for you MOTA:
Please tell me that wasn't you bidding on this book last night.
I actually don't own and never bid on that book...
Although I own 3 of the others....heee.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 16,240
Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 16,240 |
Quote:
Beardguy57 said: Dear Pig Iron :
Thanks for showing those OLD OLD Supergirl issue covers!! I remember reading those when I was a kid! ( I'm 46 )
I didn't think they were crap then, though the stories are quite primitive by today's standards.
I think it's ok to like BOTH the old comics and the new comics. Why Not??
I started reading comics around 1963 - 64. I like ones written now, too.
Ps - Anyone got any 1960's Fantastic Four, Avengers or X Men covers to Post?? OR Old JLA, Doom Patrol or Adventure Comics Featuring Superboy and the Legion of Super Heroes???
Have a great Day!
Surrrreee. When it's up the best place to view comic covers is the Grand Comic Database. They have been down for server maintenance recently but a great site with tens of thousands of scanned covers. And much quicker than scanning your own....
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,708
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,708 |
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ManofTheAtom said: The crap readers have been whinning to see come back...
Yeah!
All that useless crap... Like fun! And.. .self contained stories! And comics that could be read and enjoyed by both children and adults!
Yeah, who needs any of that oldschool crap. The way things are going, the comics industry will be dead in 15 years, and no one will have to worry about things like retcons and adherence to continuity, otr any of that other important stuff.
Oh, and that coulda been a wicked upskirt shot of Supergirl on that Adventure Comics cover... coulda been. 
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
There are some Fan based sites on Yahoo and else where to see semi erotic pics of Supergirl and others.... 
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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