quote:
Originally posted by Sacman:
Three of my favorite stories from him are Y2K, President Lex, and Emperor Joker.
No offense, but, are you sure you're not mistaking the Joe Kelly issues of these storylines for the "good" ones that Loeb wrote? I've seen it from other people before (attributing Superman #775-What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? to Loeb, when it was in fact written by Kelly, the "great" Zod ideas and issues....Kelly, as well, etc., etc.). The way the Superbooks crossed over for so long, most people can't keep who wrote what straight in their heads. Don't worry, I'm one of them, as well.

All I know is that I loved the 'Emperor Joker' issues written by Kelly. The Loeb issues, however, I found very lacking....as I did with most of his stuff.

quote:
Originally posted by EMPEROR KAMPHAUSEN:
all too often, writers make batman's driven nature into that of a computer -- where he's this relentless cyborg that knows everything, does everything, acheives everything, etc. most importantly, feels nothing.

im notta fan of that.

I hear you. I hate the "perfect" Batman, as well.

i always compare the ending to "the killing joke" to the ending of "the long halloween." without going into an advanced discertation on the two, in the former, batman is incredibly able to shrug off his enemy's past, even the events of the very book. in the latter, batman is so frustrated and wrought with guilt and pain, that he (humanly) furiously reacts to the villain, in an enraged attack.

i much preferred the latter.

Okay, I haven't read LONG HALLOWEEN, but, don't you think you're missing the point of KILLING JOKE? The entire issue was about Bruce, very humanely coming to the conclusion and ultimate knowledge that, in the end, either he or the Joker is going to die at the other's hands. The crippling of Barbara was a devastating event. Not just 'Joker killed somebody'. But, he hit Batman...very deeply, and very close to home. Jason Todd was the build-up, but, Barbara was the home run. Before that, there was at least a glimmer of possible rehabilitation for the Joker. But, that issue, as it very plainly stated, was his final chance to avoid their ultimate collision.

And, the laugh at the end...Batman chuckling along with the Joker. That was the most chilling and bizarre scene I've ever read with the Bat. Because, it was obvious that, it wasn't the joke that he told that made each of them laugh, but, the "killing joke" that they are equally crazy in their own way, and this was a final human moment, before the "bloodbath", between these two age-old enemies.

THAT is what I found to be the most human of all Batman stories.

i like the fact that batman kicks ass, and is uber intelligent, and knows 600 languages and is always cool and confident. but mixing that up on occasion with a little bit of easily-understandable and perfectly relatable emotion is a wonderful addition.

So, if Batman would just open a bit of that psycho-whupp-ass-can more often, that would make you happy? Because, if so, I agree. I tend to get bored with the Bat when he just cooly "ubers" every story and scene. Seeing him with a bit of that Keaton-esque smirk, or cocky sneer, would make ME happy.

Just don't make him into Wolverine.

one mirrored in the recent HUSH storyline, with the wonderful joker appearance.

But, much like "No Man's Land", fell into the constant implausible factor of the Bat-Mythos.

The Joker lived.

After Todd, he should've been beaten to within an inch of his life. After Barbara, he should have been crippled. But, after killing Gordon's wife, and unborn child, he should have gotten that bullet right between the eyes.

The Joker has outlived his usefulness, aside from his ability to sell lunch boxes. He is a continually implausible constant in Batman's more than logical and rational crusade. The Joker can NOT be rehabilitated now. He's beyond that. He's done too much. Killed too many. He is simply lost.

And either Gordon, or the Bat himself, should put him down. Make way for a new archnemesis. Push Batman further into the 21st Century. And, hell, if he can't stay dead, turn around and bring him back in ten years.

i've not seen anyone do better than loeb when it comes to elevating the "human" qualities of batman.

I like some of his Batman traits (hooking up with Catwoman is one of them! [wink] ). Others I find too human. That's just me.

similarly, his superman constantly made strides to emphasize that for all the power and might and ability superman has, breathes, and exudes... he's still got the heart of a young farm boy, adopted and raised by the lovingest (!) of families.

Okay, I'm disagreeing completely here. Loeb brought nothing...and I mean NOTHING....original to Superman. All he did was go to the dollar bins, buy a couple hundred issues of the Pre-Crisis/Silver Age Superman stories, and regurgitate them one after another. And he's still doing it in SMALLVILLE. And in SUPERMAN/BATMAN.

i find it infinitely more interesting that the boldest, bravest, most invincible hero on the planet has such a simple (not in a bad way), emotional core. despite saving cities and rain forrests and alien races and blowing up death stars, etc... he's still concerned about his folks, his wife, his friends, etc. stuff phases him because of his upbringing. he exerts an intensified human quality because thats all he wants and strives to be.

i like that.

But, beating me over the head constantly with it becomes tired and predictable.

I don't like that.

But, this is all just my opinion.