quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Neither am I (however, where you enjoyed Miller's Batman work, I didn't, so we'll have to agree to disagree there).
You're missing out. Dark Knight Returns isn't just the greatest Batman story ever told. It's the greatest superhero story ever told.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Over and over again I hear people assert that making Batman human, allowing him to be able to smile, joke, and enjoy life once in while makes him "campy" and turns him into Superman in a blue cape. Over and over again, I see them claim that a totally humorless, heartless, hateful, one-note psychopath makes him "serious" and a good character.
You shouldn't listen to such people. They don't know what their talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
I'm sorry, but I find such a one-dimensional, one-note Batman to be not only a villain in hero's clothing, but I find the "humorless, always grumpy" Batman to be the campiest incarnation of the character yet. At least Adam West's version was intentionally funny.
I agree that such a character would be one-dimensional, but I don't think "camp" is the right word to describe it.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
The Batman of 1986-onward is so pretentious and over-the-top "dark" and "obsessed" that he's practically begging to be skewered and mocked.
Which Batman are you talking about? Grant Morrison's uberBat from JLA?

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
My preference for Batman has always been, and will continue to be, the Batman of Finger, Fox, Hamilton, Alvin Schwartz, Broome, '70s O'Neil, Robbins, Englehart, Wein, Brennert, Conway, and Goodwin--the Batman of 1940-1986.
Denny O'Neil is a genius. Brennert's "To Kill A Legend" from Tec 500 is one of the 10 best Batman stories ever written, and you can't really be a Batman fan if you haven't read it. :) I've never heard anyone say anything bad about Bill Finger.

I've never been a Len Wein fan though, and Engelhart's Tec run is probably the single most overrated arc in the history of the industry.

Wasn't it Conway and Wein who helped Doug Moench steer the character into one of his worst periods from like 79-86?

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
That was a Batman who was driven and serious, but noble, caring, and able to enjoy life every once in a while.
Read the Clayface story that Wein wrote for Tec right after he took over for Engelhart and then tell me how noble and caring that Batman is.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
One of the best scenes in any Batman story I've read was in Englehart's "The Deadshot Ricochet," where Batman and Robin were sparring. They were joking around, teasing and kidding each other and having a good time. I love that scene to death. To me, that encapsulates what Batman ought to be; a horrifying menace to criminals everywhere, but in the company of friends and loved ones he's a guy who can smile and laugh and live life to the fullest. He was a fully-rounded, deep, rich character, not a hateful, one-dimensional cipher like the Batman of 1986-onward.
First of all, the post-Crisis Batman is a much deeper, richer character, and he's not in anyway hateful. Pitiable? Tragic? Maybe. Hateful? Based on what? That he doesn't call Dick "chum" or smile all the time? Calling him one-dimensional borders on ridiculous.

There were numerous problems with the 1940-86 Batman.

First off, you can't say the 1940-86 Batman, cause that's a huge oversimplification.

The Golden Age Batman is great. But he was much more uncaring than today's version. Would you be satisfied with the current version if he wore a permanent smile, and said things like, "A fitting end for his kind," while throwing criminals off rooftops or into vats of acid?

The Silver Age Batman is what he is. You can't really complain about the campiness, because it revitalized the character at the time.

The Bronze Age Batman? I love almost all of Denny O'Neil's work, but guys like Denny and Brennert were the exception, not the rule.

I'll give Engelhart credit for writing the best Joker story ever, but Laughing Fish aside, his run sucks. You cannot read it for the first time in this day and age and not think it's pretty shallow.

What I've read of Wein is even worse.

The Bob Haney stories from Brave and the Bold that were in that Neal Adams' hardcover that came out a few months ago, are just totally unreadable.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Kia Asamiya's Child of Dreams echoed this by making Batman a caring, likable individual ...
We agree again. Child of Dreams is a great book.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
... and the FOX run of the animated series presented Batman in that 1940-1986 light, with Batman smiling, joking, and teasing Robin and Alfred and playing pranks on the Joker.
I actually preferred the WB episodes of the animated series. The earliest ones, the ones that have been released so far on DVD, are a little too pretentious for my tastes.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Far from being campy, such a portrayal shows Batman as a fully human and developed character. I miss that.
Then run out and buy all the back issues written by Brubaker and Rucka that you can find. You won't find a more human portrayal of the character.

quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
As for Loeb's Batman (pre-"Hush"), I think he was trying to achieve a middle ground between the one-note sameness of the 1986-current Batman and the humanity of the 1940-1986 version. And I think he succeeded, making Batman somber and depressed without making him a jerk. That said, I don't think I'd want to read about that Batman on a regular basis. I like my Batman with some joie de vivre.
Loeb's Batman sucks. As does just about anything Loeb. I mean, Jeph seems like the nicest guy in the world and all that, but it doesn't change the fact that he isn't a very good writer and just tends to rehash old stories that were way more entertaining the first time around.

The Long Halloween and Dark Victory are mindless entertainment. And that's not a bad thing. Not everything needs to be deep and have all these layers of meaning. It's OK for something to just be fun.