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Heh, someone pointed this out to me in a chat. It also appeared over at Millarworld. Apparently she's very well received.
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Some home truths with some broad appeal.
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I see a list of threads, but nothing about Outsiders
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For some reason it won't like directly...its in the Commentary forum. This is what she says: quote:
Okay. So the Pulse had the brilliant idea of getting some extra mileage out of their faithful summer intern by getting me to write a weekly review column. But I haven't really read too many comics before, I told them...I liked _Ghost World_ and I used to read _Ranma 1/2_, and other than that I'm mostly trying to make it through all of Dickens this summer. They tell me it's okay, they just want me to write what I think. So let's agree, dear reader, that if I get the Hulk and Spider-Man mixed up or something, you will let it slide, and I will agree in turn to pretend I don't mind Linkin Park. So the comic they gave me to look at this week is a #1 issue of something called OUTSIDERS, and I swear to God it's the most retarded thing I've ever seen. Let's start with the cover: it's cluttery and ugly, and it's got the title in a "edgy"-looking font that I'm sure must have taken somebody three minutes in Photoshop. Of the seven characters on the cover, I recognize Nightwing and that's it. Then there's one other white guy with a really stupid-looking soul patch, and some guy who looks like he's evaporating and has one purple side and one orange side. The girls get to carry the "multiculti" part: one has Asian features and fluffy red hair (I'm sorry, but Asian hair just doesn't work like that), one has African-American skin, blonde hair and a boob job, one has blue skin and hot pink hair, and one has green skin, green hair and another boob job. Plus it says "The Beginning." I already saw that big "#1," thanks.
The woman with green skin doesn't appear inside the comic (can they do that?), but inside the woman with blue skin on the cover has green skin. Plus she's a robot. Plus there's a talking gorilla. I'm not kidding.
What's going on inside is that a big cruise ship is getting hijacked by what turns out to be a bunch of gorillas, one of whom talks (and gets a caption that says "He is called GRODD. And he has returned," ooh scary) and the rest of whom have really stupid-looking helmets and swords, even though the dialogue says they have guns. In the meantime, Nightwing and the other white guy, who apparently used to be in something called the Titans or Teen Titans, are arguing about whether or not they should start a new superhero team, since three months ago two of their friends in the previous superhero team got killed.
Now, if I had a superhero team and a couple of my teammates got killed and the team broke up, I might think twice about starting another one. I might think about, I don't know, working on my own for a while, or maybe taking some night classes and going into another line of work. But instead they decide to start another team (and in the process namedrop a whole bunch of other superheroes I've never heard of, which is really annoying--it reminds me of my brother when he's trying to impress his friends).
Then we get to see Blonde Boob-Job Girl from the cover beat up some thugs in an alley, and the soul-patch guy shoot one of them in the hand with an arrow. That's followed by a couple more building-the-team-type scenes: Fluffy-Haired Asian Girl is a bouncer in a bar with giant talking lizards and vampires in it, and Evaporating Guy is some kind of brain-damaged superhero that I think we're supposed to know about already. (You people probably know all about him, though: "oh, yes, Evaporating Guy, he first appeared as a backup feature in Big Fun Comics #238," right?) Even though he's brain-damaged, he talks exactly the same way as everybody else in the comic, sort of warmed-over "Friends" joking around. The only exceptions are the bad guys, who say things like "Sire, I fear that it will be IMPOSSIBLE to proceed in a STEALTHY manner," and the blue-or-green robot girl, who says things like "I will have to assume that Arsenal has not informed you of my presence," and turns out to be wearing this miniskirt and some kind of freaky bondage-type top that screams "I may not have much in the way of boobs, but wanna see the underside of 'em?"
But the point is that this is the scene in the movie where they get the whole team together--I've seen it a million times already and I can't even get into bars yet--except that there's supposed to be some _reason_ why the team gets together. There is none. They get together and then the talking monkeys with swords that the superheroes think are guns crash a boat into a pier. That's not a reason. Also, you're supposed to be able to tell the members of the team apart, which maybe it's that I haven't read that many comics but I can't yet, and honestly I don't care about them.
So my big question is: why does this comic exist? I asked my brother Andy, who's the one who actually buys comics and told me to intern here in the first place. He told me how there used to be a comic about 20 years ago called "The Outsiders," which he says was about Batman and a bunch of sort of second-rate loser heroes. Was it good, I asked him? No, not really. Was it popular? Was it a sort of cult thing? Are there people who are nostalgic for it? No, not really. So why make another comic called OUTSIDERS? He told me that DC just likes to do a lot of new comics with the same titles as their old comics, even the stupid and bad ones. That's _retarded_, I told him. He just shrugged.
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After reading the book and then upon reading this review I now relize why I was less than impressed with this book. I love Tom Raney's art, but art is even more subjective than writing.
Reading this review this morning coupled by the fact that I started re-reading watchmen last night really makes me want to think about why i buy the things I do. In fact, I 've already been doing this, but that review makes me want to focus on it.
I mean who are good comic writers these days....??? Moore is almost gone, gaiman may as well be gone, Morrison strikes or homers, Milligan is so/so, Robinson is lost in Hollywood, Miller has lost it apparently, Ellis, Millar and ennis still have yet to prove they can write anything other than the schtick they are known for individually...mostly shock, language and widescreen action...
Honestly, I sometimes must be way too placating towards comics....
I'm just glad there are books like age of bronze out there that give me hope for what the field can bring again some day...
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Piggo, this is my dilemma. Relatively speaking, I hardly read any comics anymore, because the quality of most of them is shite. I have to collect the rest of the Preacher books, and after that, I really don't know what else I'm going to look at. I really need to check out Age of Bronze...
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"talks exactly the same way as everybody else in the comic, sort of warmed-over "Friends" joking around."
That is the best description of Winick's style I've ever heard.
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That review is priceless.
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Why isn't that girl already an EIC somewhere?
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Piggo, this is my dilemma. Relatively speaking, I hardly read any comics anymore, because the quality of most of them is shite. I have to collect the rest of the Preacher books, and after that, I really don't know what else I'm going to look at. I really need to check out Age of Bronze...
That's what backissues are for. Right now I'm buying the first issues of the ABC comics, the first issues of Authority and John Byrne's Fantastic Four from the 80's. I also buy a Preacher TPB every chance I get, and when I'm done with that I have at least Starman, Madman and Lucifer to keep my pockets empty.
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Hell, all I'm buying anymore is back issues and collection TPBS of the good ol' days. If the business dies at this point, no loss for me. Though it will be nice to see Quesada and Jemas and their ilk on the streets.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Piggo, this is my dilemma. Relatively speaking, I hardly read any comics anymore, because the quality of most of them is shite. I have to collect the rest of the Preacher books, and after that, I really don't know what else I'm going to look at. I really need to check out Age of Bronze...
That's what backissues are for. Right now I'm buying the first issues of the ABC comics, the first issues of Authority and John Byrne's Fantastic Four from the 80's. I also buy a Preacher TPB every chance I get, and when I'm done with that I have at least Starman, Madman and Lucifer to keep my pockets empty.
Madman is ok, Starman I didn't like. I had forgotten Lucifer, which has at least a year left.
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quote:
Originally posted by FF TLSOK:
Hell, all I'm buying anymore is back issues and collection TPBS of the good ol' days. If the business dies at this point, no loss for me. Though it will be nice to see Quesada and Jemas and their ilk on the streets.
While I certainly don't want the business to die out, I find myself getting more into TPBs and graphic novels than I do the monthly comics.Right now my favorite books on the market are Liberty Meadows and Player Vs. Player. The superhero stuff is not doing it for me at all anymore.
It may well be that Birthright and World's Finest (or Batman & Superman, as DC's calling it) will the the last hurrah for my days of buying the superhero monthlies. The latter book moreso, as it's an ongoing. If it turns out to be a stinker, I'm giving up the superhero monthlies and going straight to TPBs and graphic novels only. I'm coming to the point where I'd rather read stuff that DOESN'T fit into the spandex norm.
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that was a sweet review. i like the whole concept of it even more. fun idea, having someone completely unrelated to the genre review something, like a regular person. 'twould be a cool feature here. or in a ![[AAAHHHH!!!]](graemlins/aahhh.gif) WEBZINE of some sort
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Still haven't finished my art, and now I'm not on holidays. Bummer. Will try and do it this Saturday morning.
I have been pouring fire and brimstone on the geeks at the Pulse mb who think you need to "understand the industry" in order to appreciate Outsiders #1. Morons.
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oh sure, great defense.
"its a book only existing and knowledgeable fans could like"
both of them should love it!
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Fortunately there don't seem to be too many posters using that as a defense.
The thing I'm not sure anybody on that thread gets is that, if comics are going to expand outside the current fanbase, it's going to be to people like Jess who bother to investigate them to begin with. Whether her piece counts technically as a review or not is immaterial; it's an insight into how some non-comics readers think.
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Several creators who have seen this review have been very upset by it, interestingly enough. I think I can kind of understand why. We're all sitting here laughing at it, when it only perpetuates what we hate; the stigma that comics are for immature children or the mentally retarded. Really, why we take this person's opinion with a grain of salt is a pretty good question. She's admitted that she's not a comic book fan, and has little or no experience with them. So how can she really judge the quality of it?
At the same time, I haven't read Outsiders, but I have never liked Judd Winnick, so I guess I'd kind of agree with her assessment, at least of the writing.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Several creators who have seen this review have been very upset by it, interestingly enough.
I have no sympathy. First, if you publish your work publicly, you invite criticism, constructive or otherwise. Secondly, why call yourself a writer if you can't write.
Shitty writing perpepuates the stigma of comic books beina trash medium.
quote:
I think I can kind of understand why. We're all sitting here laughing at it, when it only perpetuates what we hate; the stigma that comics are for immature children or the mentally retarded. Really, why we take this person's opinion with a grain of salt is a pretty good question. She's admitted that she's not a comic book fan, and has little or no experience with them. So how can she really judge the quality of it?
Because she can read. Simple as that. What special qualification do you need to make an honest assessment of a comic book?
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Shitty writing perpepuates the stigma of comic books beina trash medium.
Not entirely. People have always thought this about comics, even when a majority of the output of the industry was good. There are, of course, bad comic books, just like there are bad everything. That's unavoidable. Yet there's no such stigma attached to movies, or music, or novels, despite the obvious quantity of bad material in those mediums.
quote:
Because she can read. Simple as that. What special qualification do you need to make an honest assessment of a comic book?
I didn't say she needed qualifications to make an honest assessment. I said she needed qualifications to make an assessment I, or any comic book reader, should give a shit about.
She has no idea what the nuances or properties of a comic book are. She has no experience with the various styles or genres of a comic book, or any idea of the background or tendencies of the writer to base them on. When someone sees a David Lynch movie, they should know going in that they won't have any idea what happened afterward, because Lynch's work is usually incoherent and symbolic, metaphorical, not literal. If a person who had never seen or heard of David Lynch watched a Lynch film, they'd probably hate it, and call it one of the dumbest wastes of time they'd ever experienced.
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quote:
She has no idea what the nuances or properties of a comic book are. She has no experience with the various styles or genres of a comic book, or any idea of the background or tendencies of the writer to base them on. When someone sees a David Lynch movie, they should know going in that they won't have any idea what happened afterward, because Lynch's work is usually incoherent and symbolic, metaphorical, not literal. If a person who had never seen or heard of David Lynch watched a Lynch film, they'd probably hate it, and call it one of the dumbest wastes of time they'd ever experienced.
Oh, come on. This isn't avant garde cinema here. This is a two buck fifty comic book, with its principal market kids in their teens. If you need to comprehend "nuances" or "properties" to appreciate what is basically a mindless slugfest betwen some super-powered vigilantes and some sword-wielding apes, then I've been missing the point since I was 5.
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Like I said, she might be right about the story, but she blasts the art, too! Bullshit like "such and such is too cluttered", when she doesn't understand that that's the point!
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Like I said, she might be right about the story, but she blasts the art, too! Bullshit like "such and such is too cluttered", when she doesn't understand that that's the point!
That's a fairly peripheral point though isn't it? You're just talking about the cover. What about the rest of the comic?
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I'm not sure, I didn't notice a whole lot of comments on the art, on a second read.
Still, she doesn't seem like a fairly intelligent person from her review. She makes no effort to elaborate or give insights into what she's thinking. This is something that Kelly Osbourne would produce. "God, this is fucking retarded."
It's funny, but I still wouldn't take this person's word for it. She has no credibility with me. I had no itention of reading this book anyways, but I imagine that if I had her opinion wouldn't really sway me one way or the other.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I'm not sure, I didn't notice a whole lot of comments on the art, on a second read.
Still, she doesn't seem like a fairly intelligent person from her review. She makes no effort to elaborate or give insights into what she's thinking. This is something that Kelly Osbourne would produce. "God, this is fucking retarded."
It's funny, but I still wouldn't take this person's word for it. She has no credibility with me. I had no itention of reading this book anyways, but I imagine that if I had her opinion wouldn't really sway me one way or the other.
She's the "man in the street", though, isn't she? She has no more or less credibility than the vast majority of people who might flick through a comic out of idle curiosity.
The idea is not to sway your opinion, but to give you an idea as to why comics are no longer a mainstream form of entertaiment. Its not her role to provide justification for her first impressions. She's just giving them to you as she sees them - how most people would see them.
The reason is because the damn things are incomprehensible. As I said, while this sort of garbage is being pushed out by publishers, comics will never overcome their status as a trash medium.
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quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
Fortunately there don't seem to be too many posters using that as a defense.
The thing I'm not sure anybody on that thread gets is that, if comics are going to expand outside the current fanbase, it's going to be to people like Jess who bother to investigate them to begin with. Whether her piece counts technically as a review or not is immaterial; it's an insight into how some non-comics readers think.
Precisely.
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It would be interesting to read what she might have to say about a "good" comic book.
I wonder how she comes to be an intern there if she's not interested in comics? Just curious, I'm not saying she shouldn't be hired there.
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The world is a fucked up place if a 17 year old girl who displays the mental capacities of a boiled fruit suddenly represents the mainstream audience.
It's a review. It's not a poll. This comic may very well be utter shit, but I still think the fact that someone has to question why we should give a shit what she thinks.
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Well, if your industry is shrinking, you can either expand it, or focus on taking market share from your competitors. If publishers aren't seeking the opinions of 17-year old fruit loop females, along with other categories of potential new readers, I guess they're just focussing on a share war for a diminishing pie. A
Maybe she was a bit flippant (and I like flippant), but I think she made her point - this book was a turn-off for that particular non-cognoscenti.
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Many of the posters at Newsarama are starting to suspect that Jess is a hoax, as so far editors have referred to her as both "he" and "she", confusing her gender.
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She may not know art, but she knows what she likes.
Isn't this the market that the publishers want to reach out to? Non-comics readers, just regular people off the street?
And even if it is a hoax, the point it makes is still valid.
Think of X-men 2. One of the complaints I heard voiced about the movie was that it jumped straight into the story, relying upon a knowledge of the past instalment to enjoy it fully.
Imagine that, but instead of X-Men 2... it's ninety percent of all the movies that are ever made.
That's the comic book industry to the average person.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
The world is a fucked up place if a 17 year old girl who displays the mental capacities of a boiled fruit suddenly represents the mainstream audience.
yeesh, a-man, you sure are angry at the girl.
her critique of the book is certainly no worse than your critique of her.
she's simply giving an honest impression of a book, from the layman's point of view.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
someone has to question why we should give a shit what she thinks.
because she is a microcosmic sample of the audience representing the industry's (negative) future.
if the only comic fans in 5 or 15 years are the comic fans around today, thats pretty bad, and quite possibly fatal to the field.
it SHOULD be the goal of an item (be it a comic or a novel or a tv show) to appeal to as large an audience as possible. that should include people who wouldn't normally be interested in such things.
there's no guarantee it'll happen, of course, but an effort, however slight, should be made.
a positive example: the dark knight returns was a comic that had silly capes and tights and "POW" and all that, but it had the ability to appeal to people otherwise not interested in the genre. it expanded horizons.
thats fantastic.
the outsiders, at least according to her, has no chance whatsoever of appealing to someone not involved in comic books.
not fantastic.
hell, i have no interest in the book and not only am i a pretty big comic book fan, i work for the company!
granted, like this chick's, that opinion might also mean shit to you. it might also mean shit to DC.
but its my contention that this is exactly why the field is collapsing.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
This comic may very well be utter shit, but I still think the fact that someone has to question why we should give a shit what she thinks.
Why should we give a shit about what you think?
You're an angry man, A-man. Just let it go. Cry on Bobo's shoulder if you need to.
But this review makes a very good point. #1's should be a good jumping on point for any reader, veteran or new. This one seems to rely on too much backstory for new readers to be interested in. Plus, she makes fun of Winnick (I thought you'd at least get behind that) and his writing style. The review points out that the dialogue is as bad as the stereotypes that people shovel onto the industry and keeps new readers away. As has been said, even if it is a hoax, it's still very valid.
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I think Jess , if real, is young and tactless. That said, there was nothing wrong with her review from her perspective.
If the book was exclusively meant for me...then it,s Ok. I liked the art..the story was passable. But there are many factors I'm looking at it from..the fact that I've never liked a winnick story before, the fact that i love Tom Raney art. And I have an interest in the characters of metamorpho and nightwing... I love the classic Titans and the classic Outsiders-for varying reasons...
Gorillas sell comics to comic fans...comic fans love gorillas..that's why they are there as ridiculous as it sounds...
In the end..this book is missing the key elements to make it successful...a gripping story, accessible entry into and story and something to make you want to come back..besides the art -if you like even that..
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I'm not angry at her at all(why would I be?).
For the most part, I'm just playing the devil's advocate. No point in having a discussion if nobody is willing to take the other side.
At the end of the day, this review didn't tell me anything I didn't already know or wouldn't have assumed anyway.
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the "if a 17 year old girl who displays the mental capacities of a boiled fruit" comment seemed a lil more devil than advocate.
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Posts: 24,593
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 |
And Bobo still has that shoulder for you to cry on.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
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10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
If anything bothers me, it's the usage of the word "retarded" as an insult. I dislike that.
I'm harsh. It's just who I am. You fucking cunt.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,827
cobra kai 15000+ posts
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,827 |
quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
And Bobo still has that shoulder for you to cry on.
that aint my shoulder, tiger
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