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Anyone else agree? I can't stand reading superpower comics.
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I disagree. I enjoy books that are little more tied down in reality than others, but I collect a good share of superpower comics. You're referring to Superman again aren't you Uschi?
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What do you mean by "superpower"? Superhero? Or comics other than Batman where the characters have superpowers?
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I do. It depends on who writes the book.
Chris Claremont, Grant Morrison, and Mark Waid all do great work.
J. Michael Strazinski's Rising Stars has been fantastic.
Peter David's Captain Marvel has been good.
Planetary is due to start again sooner or later.
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I mean superbeings. Things that ain't human. Not really, anyways.
Sure this is Superman again (what ISN'T with me?), but it's also in general. All these Legion posts got me thinking about it. I read, like, two Legion books. ABSOLUTELY hated them. Someone could go through walls. Others used mind powers. I mean, it's so hard to find a weaknesss in a Power. Unless it's GIVEN, like Green Lantern (who, despite myself, I enjoy), they're practically indestructable. Especially when they come in teams.
I guess it boils down to identification. I can't identify with their problems. I don't deal with their problems. Nobody does. It's all fake. NO semblance to reality there.
And yet........
They still aren't good enough. they're so much better than anything in creation with their powers and shit and they still have too many problems. FEH.
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I don't know whats up with the Superman books.
The're fucked thats all I know.
I keep saying I won't buy them any more but I always do and end up regretting it in the end.
All the onging Superman titles absolutely suck.
Even a good portion of the hardcore Superman fan base is pissed off that somewhere along the lines Supes was castrated.
In Aos not only does Superman call himself a Pacifist but also serves up Lois Lane as his Idea of a good human.
I mean sure she's a great piece of ass who probably has a great set of tits but sometimes her morals are REALLY fucked up.
Don't even get me started on Superman.
Ever since the last issue of Ending Battle wiped out every last story plot I had interest in I rarely even enjoy a Superman book. I prey for fill in writers. Even though Johns can't write Superman for shit.
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quote:
Originally posted by Uschi:
I mean superbeings. Things that ain't human. Not really, anyways.
Sure this is Superman again (what ISN'T with me?), but it's also in general. All these Legion posts got me thinking about it. I read, like, two Legion books. ABSOLUTELY hated them. Someone could go through walls. Others used mind powers. I mean, it's so hard to find a weaknesss in a Power. Unless it's GIVEN, like Green Lantern (who, despite myself, I enjoy), they're practically indestructable. Especially when they come in teams.
I guess it boils down to identification. I can't identify with their problems. I don't deal with their problems. Nobody does. It's all fake. NO semblance to reality there.
And yet........
They still aren't good enough. they're so much better than anything in creation with their powers and shit and they still have too many problems. FEH.
I'm not a big fan of superhero comics, but don't feel the writers have much choice. Two reasons:
1. they want their audience to relate to what's going on. If you're a god-like being living in Asgard or whatever, then you're unlikely to have too many fans (explaining why Odin never got his own comic - it was Thor who had the girl problems);
2. verisimilitude. The world's fastest sprinter in real life is still going to have emotional relationships. So too will the Flash.
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I love "superpower" comics. In one sense, they are about wish-fulfillment: Wouldn't it be neat to be able to fly, have x-ray eyes, and whatnot? In this superficial sense, reading about characters with powers can be fun.
But powers can also be treated more seriously. I haven't read an X-Men comic in years, but they were a good example of showing powers with consequences, e.g., how they might affect heroes' lives when they cannot just shut them off or appear human. Other comics have taken the concept of powers to more serious, even frightening extremes (e.g., Watchmen, Rising Stars). Still others take a fresh, humorous approach (e.g., Crossovers).
I love comics that do not use super-powers, too (namely, Strangers In Paradise). But powers are near and dear to my heart. There is so much variety in how they are portrayed that there's always something fresh.
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I hated X-Men as a kid now I can't get enough.
I actully like all the major X-titles
Uncanny, New, Ultimate, X-Treme.
Good stuff, not for everyone but good stuff.
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I like Superman, but I don't consider myself a hardcore fan...I don't pick up issues that I don't enjoy just to do it. I pick and choose books that I will enjoy reading.
Spiderman set the standard for superhero's with problems, and other books have followed. With him, having superpowers gave him more problems than not having them. I always got the feeling that Parker would rather not have them, because then he could just lead a normal life. But he has them, and his memory of Uncle Ben won't allow him to sit around and ignore them or use them for selfish reasons. So he goes out and puts his life on the line night in and out, putting his loved ones in danger because he was given a 'gfit'.
And I'm not a big X fan, but to each his (or her) own.
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I LOVE superpowers. Sure, they aren't "realistic", but realistically, Batman would have made one mistep and permanently wrecked his knees! Realistically, James Bond would have gotten shot years ago. Non-supers are as unrealistic as supers, with less justification.
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quote:
Originally posted by Uschi:
I mean superbeings. Things that ain't human. Not really, anyways.
Sure this is Superman again (what ISN'T with me?),
If your hatred of Superman and other high-powered characters is predicated solely upon them having powers, then your understanding of them is--no offense intended--superficial at best. The characters are still human at their core. They can fail. They can be hurt. They can suffer emotionally. And if they fail, the consequences are disastrous. Further, the powers are not all that makes the characters. It's the morals and personalities behind them that define who they are.
quote:
but it's also in general. All these Legion posts got me thinking about it. I read, like, two Legion books. ABSOLUTELY hated them. Someone could go through walls. Others used mind powers. I mean, it's so hard to find a weaknesss in a Power. Unless it's GIVEN, like Green Lantern (who, despite myself, I enjoy), they're practically indestructable. Especially when they come in teams.
Uh...see above. They're not indestructible. They can be defeated, even killed if they screw up. Again, you're only looking at the surface.
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I guess it boils down to identification. I can't identify with their problems. I don't deal with their problems. Nobody does.
I can't identify with them and feel their problems just fine, thanks. You don't need to speak for me.
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It's all fake. NO semblance to reality there.
There's no semblance of reality to Batman, either. Yet I don't see you complaining about not being able to relate to some billionaire with a cave full of goodies who can have any girl he wants. He's no more relatable than the superpowered guys you're bashing. I certainly can't relate to him, especially the way he's been written since 1986. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the pre-1986 stories and some of the better post-Crisis Bat-yarns, though....
quote:
And yet........
They still aren't good enough. they're so much better than anything in creation with their powers and shit and they still have too many problems. FEH.
Again, you're only looking at the surface and refusing to see the characters as they are. As many have said, superpowers are based in escapism and wish fulfillment, being lost in a fantasy world. That's what superhero comics are all about, and quite frankly, I'd rather read about a guy who can fly and do all sort of amazing things than someone who can't do squat. If you want realism, pick up a newspaper. And as I've said, powers do not equal a character you can't relate to (unless you're severely close-minded). They're still people underneath, and it's the person behind the powers that counts.
Please, leave the superficiality at the door. Superpowers are NOT for "sucks." That's just bull. Superpowered characters can be just as good as non-powered characters, and many of them are.
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I Like Super Powers! Lots! It is Soooo much frelling FUN to see Cannonball smash through things..To see Superman soaring over Metropolis ( I don't read the Superman Mags but I DO watch Smallville, Lois & Clark, and The NEW Adventures of Batman & Superman.. )
I like Batman....No powers, but he has guts..I admire Guts!
I would not mind having super powers... But that is a HUGE responsibility, too.
You Can't go around clobberin regular folks if they Piss you off. And you can't ignore crime. ( Just Ask Spiderman about the latter issue. )
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Along with Great Power comes Great responsibility.
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Maybe it’s just more of a guy thing? I love Super-books. I got ton's of 'em... But I know what Uschi means when she sez their problem are tough to relate to... Superman for instance. He's fuckin’ Superman okay. Just think of that on the surface... For any ONE problem he might have, he has TEN super-cool things going on. He has a fucking Fortress of Solitude for god’s sake. Who here doesn't desperately want (or have) one of those? You want problems? I got problems... I don't want to hear about HIS problems. In fact I'm sick of his problems. His books are TERRIBLE. Now that's a problem I CAN directly relate to ![[sad]](images/icons/frown.gif)
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quote:
I don't want to hear about HIS problems.
In fact I'm sick of his problems.
Superman is a man of great strength, but unfortunately the present-day editors and writers forgot that this is not just limited to his muscles, but that he should also have great strength of character.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
Maybe it’s just more of a guy thing?
I love Super-books. I got ton's of 'em...
But I know what Uschi means when she sez their problem are tough to relate to...
Superman for instance.
He's fuckin’ Superman okay. Just think of that on the surface...
For any ONE problem he might have, he has TEN super-cool things going on. He has a fucking Fortress of Solitude for god’s sake. Who here doesn't desperately want (or have) one of those?
You want problems? I got problems...
I don't want to hear about HIS problems.
In fact I'm sick of his problems.
I don't think I'd mind him having problems if said problems actually made sense. What he's got in his books right now is just a bunch of stupid, phony contrivances that make him out to be a wuss.
quote:
His books are TERRIBLE.
Now that's a problem I CAN directly relate to
True, that.
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Just because a hero has superpowers doesn't mean you can't relate to them. There was a time in my life where I could relate to Spider-Man. Not because I crawled up buildings or swung from one end of town to the other on webbing, but because I was a broke loser with a crappy love life (this was a long time ago BTW). Unfortunately, it was a little TOO painful to read about his hard luck; I related TOO well to him!
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Well I don't know about you all. But I don't really need to relate to a character to like it.
I mean let me throw out...I dunno...Starman. You know. I am absolutely nothing like Jack. I'm half his age. I'm not carrying on any kind of Family tradition or legacy or anything. In fact I gave the Family tradion a try, the military, and then said fuck no that's not what I want to do. I don't have problems telling my father I love him. Cause really the only thing I want out of him is that 18 years of child support he never paid.
My life in no way shape or form resembled Jacks. But I'll tell you what. Starman was at the time one of my absolutely favorite characters and books around.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Depends on the writer.
Mxy is wise.
Too often powers and costumes are gimmicks to mask poor writing.
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quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
If your hatred of Superman and other high-powered characters is predicated solely upon them having powers, then your understanding of them is--no offense intended--superficial at best.
HA HA HA HA HA!
Ok, no not based SOLELY, but the powers are a main factor. I don't want to see a man fly. I don't want to see a person who does things completely imposible as easy as I can say 'fuck off!' I am completely unenamored(sp) by that kind of stuff. Batman does martial arts and boxing and stuff. Maybe he does it BETTER than a real person, but it's still "realistic." Nny chops people up with knives. He doesn't use mind powers to make them explode or something (except in heaven, 'course, but then he mentions how boring it gets -making my point). It isn't realistic that a person would be SO fucked up as to mindlessly slaughter millions of people without concequance(sp), but there are mass murderers out there (hell, to make the point a little different, check the 'Reality Check' on my website).
I don't like completely fake stuff. I never enjoyed reading Beowulf because he's fighting a fucking dragon! Monsters! Woooo! Rar! I do not feel the threat of a big dragon. I do not feel connected enough to have ANY emotional conection. I do not like superpowers either.
But I also cannot stand Superman's personality.
I've narrowed it to Supes because he's the only one I've sat down and read a ton of stuff about. I gave myself a solid basis with diferent creative teams and shit.... his personality throughout his lifetime is annoying, pudish, weak, and undesirable to read -IMO.
quote:
The characters are still human at their core. They can fail. They can be hurt. They can suffer emotionally. And if they fail, the consequences are disastrous.
Which, to me, means they are a greater threat to their society than protector. If Batman hits someone too hard, they get a concussion or something. If Superman hits too hard, there goes their head! If Batman misjudges a jump, he feels the shock up his spine from impact. If Superman misjudges a jump, he could go through the street into the sewers. Of crumble a building.
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They're not indestructible. They can be defeated, even killed if they screw up. Again, you're only looking at the surface.
I knew someone would jump on "indestructable." I didn't mean it as literally as it sounded. I just don't like HOW much harder it is to harm them. Batman puts his life on the line every time he goes out (not to say I think DC would LET him, just that in principle, the 'fact' is there). Superman? It took the strongest, most destructive force in the universe (or whatever) to kill him... and he came back. And can now defeat the guy over and over.
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I can't identify with them and feel their problems just fine, thanks. You don't need to speak for me.
You can identify with Superman having TOO MANY powers and flinching and busting down a wall? Then having to go into outer space and accidently blowing up a spacestation? Then giving your powers to a purple guy until he gets so big he could eat you for lunch?
Really?
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There's no semblance of reality to Batman, either.
He is an uber-human. If there was a person who was at the peak of generally everything you would have a Batman. He is unrealistic, but in realistic ways. Maybe I'm not as GOOD, but I CAN throw a boomerang. I can kick people. Other people can kick people BETTER. Can you fly? Can you shoot lasers out your eyes? Can you control inanimate objects with your mindpower alone? Can you walk through a solid wall?
quote:
Again, you're only looking at the surface and refusing to see the characters as they are. As many have said, superpowers are based in escapism and wish fulfillment, being lost in a fantasy world. That's what superhero comics are all about, and quite frankly, I'd rather read about a guy who can fly and do all sort of amazing things than someone who can't do squat. If you want realism, pick up a newspaper.
I don't WANT escapism. Not like that. If I'm going to use reading as an escape, I want to actually be able to pretent it could happen.
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quote:
But I also cannot stand Superman's personality.
I've narrowed it to Supes because he's the only one I've sat down and read a ton of stuff about. I gave myself a solid basis with diferent creative teams and shit.... his personality throughout his lifetime is annoying, pudish, weak, and undesirable to read -IMO.
You must only have read the last ten years' worth of Superman comics. Prior to 1993, he was a strong, commanding, noble character. He's only portrayed as a wimp in the last 10 years. Again, your understanding of Superman is purely superfical and false.
quote:
I don't like completely fake stuff. I never enjoyed reading Beowulf because he's fighting a fucking dragon! Monsters! Woooo! Rar! I do not feel the threat of a big dragon. I do not feel connected enough to have ANY emotional conection. I do not like superpowers either.
Then you must really hate all the great fantasy tales of the age. Those stories are written with pure imagination in mind. Not everything has to be grounded in some false "reality." There is and should be room for stories that sweep you away into another world. Personally, I prefer out-and-out fantasy. It simply yields far more potential and storytelling opportunities than something that's weighed down in "reality." I don't need "realistic" threats to get me excited for the hero's sake. As long as the scenario is presented with panache and style, the situation can be as wild and fantastical as it wants. It's all about the presentation.
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quote:
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The characters are still human at their core. They can fail. They can be hurt. They can suffer emotionally. And if they fail, the consequences are disastrous.
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Which, to me, means they are a greater threat to their society than protector. If Batman hits someone too hard, they get a concussion or something. If Superman hits too hard, there goes their head! If Batman misjudges a jump, he feels the shock up his spine from impact. If Superman misjudges a jump, he could go through the street into the sewers. Of crumble a building.
This is why there's a little something called "suspension of disbelief." You're supposed to give yourself over to the fantasy in order for it to cast its spell. Again, it's about imagination. You either have it or you don't. And just because you don't doesn't give you the right to say that pure fantasy "sucks." There are far more people than not who relish fantasy and are willing to embrace it. Why do you think Lord of the Rings has become such a huge box office phenomenon?
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You can identify with Superman having TOO MANY powers and flinching and busting down a wall? Then having to go into outer space and accidently blowing up a spacestation? Then giving your powers to a purple guy until he gets so big he could eat you for lunch?
Really?
YES, YES, YES. I identify with it because Superman, when he's being treated properly, is a character I admire and respect. Someone I would like to be, powers and all. And Superman does NOT have too many powers, not these days, anyway. The powers and fantasy aspects are wish fulfillment in its purest form, what most folks would love to do themselves. And again, just because he has powers doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings and emotions. You're doing what JMS complains about, judging by the strings, not the puppet itself.
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If there was a person who was at the peak of generally everything you would have a Batman. He is unrealistic, but in realistic ways.
You just contradicted yourself. How can Batman be "unrealistic in realistic ways"? He's unrealistic, PERIOD. In real life, he'd be dead or permanently disabled, and none of the villains in his stories would evern exist.
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Maybe I'm not as GOOD, but I CAN throw a boomerang. I can kick people. Other people can kick people BETTER. Can you fly? Can you shoot lasers out your eyes? Can you control inanimate objects with your mindpower alone? Can you walk through a solid wall?
No, but I wish I could. And that's the beauty of fantasy. Wish fulfillment. Escape into another world. A break from the drudgery of reality.
Even if you don't personally care for fantasy, why are you so dead-set on refusing to understand what other people see in it? Why do you slap it with a blanket "it sucks" label that isn;t warranted?
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I don't WANT escapism. Not like that. If I'm going to use reading as an escape, I want to actually be able to pretent it could happen.
Then you're in the wrong medium.
I get enough "this could really happen" stuff in the news and on TV all the time. When I read, I want to be swept away and lose myself. Again, want reality? Read a newspaper or watch TV. Comics were meant for the stuff of fancy.
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quote:
Originally posted by Uschi:
Anyone else agree? I can't stand reading superpower comics.
It's all about the character for me, superpowers or not. Basically, I read comics for a genre of story I can't get in another medium (although with all the superhero movies coming out, it's starting to change). But still, I've never liked a character because of the powers they have - it's the character themselves, and the quality of the writing that goes into that charactrer. I enjoy reading Superman and Green Lantern as much as Batman and Daredevil (when they're written well, at least).
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quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:
quote:
Originally posted by Uschi:
Anyone else agree? I can't stand reading superpower comics.
It's all about the character for me, superpowers or not. Basically, I read comics for a genre of story I can't get in another medium (although with all the superhero movies coming out, it's starting to change). But still, I've never liked a character because of the powers they have - it's the character themselves, and the quality of the writing that goes into that charactrer. I enjoy reading Superman and Green Lantern as much as Batman and Daredevil (when they're written well, at least).
One of the reasons I so enjoy Lucifer is because although he is the second most powerful creature in the universe (second only to God - he can dispose of powerful magicians like the Silk Man with barely a wrinkle on his brow), his is a very complex character. The powers are the window dressing - what matters is the craftsmanship in the story, and one of the essential elements of good writing is good characterisation.
This is why Miller's Dark Knight Returns did so well. No superhuman feats other than an obsessively driven desire to succeed.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
One of the reasons I so enjoy Lucifer is because although he is the second most powerful creature in the universe (second only to God - he can dispose of powerful magicians like the Silk Man with barely a wrinkle on his brow), his is a very complex character. The powers are the window dressing - what matters is the craftsmanship in the story, and one of the essential elements of good writing is good characterisation.
Thank you! :)
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Ok, although I am not a Superman fan - and I'm not bashing the character - but he always seemed so vanilla next to someone like Batman. But that's not to say that there aren't super powered titles/characters that I don't enjoy. Spider-man. Has to be one of the coolest characters in all of comics. When he's handled right you see that despite the powers he's still nerdy Peter Parker. (Check out the Ultimate version of the character.) Batman was Bruce Wayne, billionaire playboy to everyone else - popular and wealthy beyond imagination - sort of the JFK, Jr. of the DCU. Clark Kent - pretended to be nerdy and weak so that his powers wouldn't be discovered, but underneath it all HE knew what he could do and had confidence in that. Hell, if Smallville is any indication, Clark was well liked as a teen - accepted and with his own friends. And then there is Peter - who, despite his powers, wasn't popular at all. He was broke, down on his luck with the ladies, etc. and so despite his powers he was the "everyman" - someone people could relate to more. Then there are books like Rising Stars which I think is fantastic (if only it didn't come out, like, once a year ![[yuh huh]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif) ) What does it for me is that each of these powered characters have their frailties and even with their powers they are not omnipotent. I used to think that of the X books before they became too fucking convoluted to follow with loose ends taking years to resolve. But it's the individual characterizations with a character's doubts, fears, hopes and joys that make it work for me. Super powers don't bother me - it's how the writers choose to handle it that concern me more.
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quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
You must only have read the last ten years' worth of Superman comics. Prior to 1993, he was a strong, commanding, noble character. He's only portrayed as a wimp in the last 10 years. Again, your understanding of Superman is purely superfical and false.
Maybe I did read the shitty version, but that's all they're handing out right now, so why bother? I can ask someone for the good old ones, but the evolution of the character has destroyed him. First impressions cannot be remade.
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Then you must really hate all the great fantasy tales of the age. Those stories are written with pure imagination in mind. Not everything has to be grounded in some false "reality." There is and should be room for stories that sweep you away into another world. Personally, I prefer out-and-out fantasy. It simply yields far more potential and storytelling opportunities than something that's weighed down in "reality." I don't need "realistic" threats to get me excited for the hero's sake. As long as the scenario is presented with panache and style, the situation can be as wild and fantastical as it wants. It's all about the presentation.
I really can't see the point in pure fantasy. I am one of a scientific mind, I guess. I really can't enjoy fake stuff. I count mistakes in sci-fi movies (best being Event Horizon with only one scientific inaccuracy). If it couldn't happen, it's worthless to me. I dunno.... maybe I'm missing out? Or maybe it's a good thing. I want to go into Quantum, so needing reality is a good line to draw. If you know what I mean. I don't want to make up crackpot theories, you know? Anyhow, It doesn't matter to me how WELL a book (or whatever) is written <ok, for the MOST part>, if it makes no logical sense, I can't enjoy it.
Isn't it interesting to see how other people can think SO very different from each other?
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This is why there's a little something called "suspension of disbelief." You're supposed to give yourself over to the fantasy in order for it to cast its spell. Again, it's about imagination. You either have it or you don't.
WOAH. No need for the personal insults. I HAVE an imagination, thankyouverymuch. I can IMAGINE fantasy shit all I like. I can picture it, I can make it up, I can follow along. I JUST DO NOT LIKE IT. Personal preferance.
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And just because you don't doesn't give you the right to say that pure fantasy "sucks."
Really? What gives YOU the right to say it DOESN'T suck? It's an opinion.
And I used the term "sucks" for two reasons.
1) Get the attention I wanted (that worked).
2) Allude to the comic I drew with Supes and Bats and Scarecrow for those who have seen it.
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There are far more people than not who relish fantasy and are willing to embrace it. Why do you think Lord of the Rings has become such a huge box office phenomenon?
Since when has popular opinion been something to rely on for validity? Artists throughout the ages have starved and been ridiculed in their lifetimes and only after their deaths had their work seen for the true masterpiece it always was. Just because a lot of people do something doesn't mean it's all that damn great. Almost everyone in America spends an hour + watching TV every day. Does that make it a good idea? Have you ever videotaped yourself watching TV? It's frightening. Maybe it would be better to go running or ride a bike for that hour or so. But that doesn't mean everyone will enjoy that. Or chose to do that. Popular opinion means bupkiss.
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....Someone I would like to be, powers and all. And Superman does NOT have too many powers, not these days, anyway.
I was taking my examples from some of the Superman comics I have read. He got too many powers. He flinched and busted a wall in a huge building- likely an apartment complex (Lois lived in a window adjacent). He couldn't control his power and blew up a space station. Enter the Parasite.
And if he keeps getting more powers as his time under our sun goes on, how can he NOT have too many powers NOW when he did THEN?
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And again, just because he has powers doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings and emotions.
Superman's a wuss. I don't care about his feelings and emotions. What are most of his problems? With romance and friendships, right? If I want to deal with those subjects, I'll turn to reality. I deal with that myself and its boring to read someone else whining about it. I don't like the way he thinks. I don't like reading his thoughts.
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You just contradicted yourself. How can Batman be "unrealistic in realistic ways"? He's unrealistic, PERIOD. In real life, he'd be dead or permanently disabled, and none of the villains in his stories would evern exist.
See below.
"Maybe I'm not as GOOD, but I CAN throw a boomerang. I can kick people. Other people can kick people BETTER."
Batman is unrealistic in how good he is at the stuff he does, but not the stuff he does. In a 'perfect' world, someone COULD be as precise as Batman in their fighting style. The things he does are real things, stuff actually possible, and the fantasy is how well he does it and how he doesn't fail.
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I get enough "this could really happen" stuff in the news and on TV all the time. When I read, I want to be swept away and lose myself. Again, want reality? Read a newspaper or watch TV. Comics were meant for the stuff of fancy.
I do read the newspaper. That isn't entertainment. That is cold, hard reality. Just because I don't want complete fluff, stuff that could never in any way possibly physically happen in reality, does not mean I do not want fiction.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
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Originally posted by King Krypton:
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Originally posted by Dave:
One of the reasons I so enjoy Lucifer is because although he is the second most powerful creature in the universe (second only to God - he can dispose of powerful magicians like the Silk Man with barely a wrinkle on his brow), his is a very complex character. The powers are the window dressing - what matters is the craftsmanship in the story, and one of the essential elements of good writing is good characterisation.
Thank you! :)
Ah, but don't thank me yet.
Lucifer is one thing: Superman is another. Lucifer might easily be dead, damned or deposed by the end of the series (Mike Carey predicts it will end around issue 60, from memory). Superman will continue to be published day in day out, no matter what. It takes away a lot of the suspense of the story. I have no envy for writers of such characters. They're not really writing most of the time: they're perpetuating a commercial franchise. They will never be able to write a Superman story with an end (unless its an "imaginary story"): there will never be literary closure.
Further, with Superman, you have also got someone who is unbearably and somewhat unbelievably humble given his powers. Sure he was a country boy from Kansas, and read too much Horatio Alger as a kid, under the guidance of two nice folk. I find nothing appealing about him whatsoever. He has no panache. The boyscout thing has been played to death. Editors will never change it because they like the idea of Superman being a goody-goody schmuck from a farm, the representative small-town American: the worse thing is that it will keep going ad infinitum.
Ostrander had more room to move with the similarly powered character, Martian Manhunter. I didn't read the series, but I've been told it chronicled the Martian's various lives (including one as a cat). That sounds innovative to me. Superman cannot be innovative so long as the character is used to sell lunch boxes and kid's sleeping bags: at the end of the day, whatever changes are made will be reversed to preserve the status quo and perpetuate the commercial exploitation of the character.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
quote:
Originally posted by Ultimate Jaburg53:
I hated X-Men as a kid now I can't get enough.
I actully like all the major X-titles
Uncanny, New, Ultimate, X-Treme.
Good stuff, not for everyone but good stuff.
Me too.....I also agree with everything you said about Superman......I keep telling myself to stay away but I always buy the book and regret it later.
![[...rassamnfrackin...]](graemlins/grumble01.gif)
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
quote:
Originally posted by harleykwin:
Ok, although I am not a Superman fan - and I'm not bashing the character - but he always seemed so vanilla next to someone like Batman. But that's not to say that there aren't super powered titles/characters that I don't enjoy.
Spider-man. Has to be one of the coolest characters in all of comics. When he's handled right you see that despite the powers he's still nerdy Peter Parker. (Check out the Ultimate version of the character.) Batman was Bruce Wayne, billionaire playboy to everyone else - popular and wealthy beyond imagination - sort of the JFK, Jr. of the DCU. Clark Kent - pretended to be nerdy and weak so that his powers wouldn't be discovered, but underneath it all HE knew what he could do and had confidence in that. Hell, if Smallville is any indication, Clark was well liked as a teen - accepted and with his own friends.
And then there is Peter - who, despite his powers, wasn't popular at all. He was broke, down on his luck with the ladies, etc. and so despite his powers he was the "everyman" - someone people could relate to more.
Then there are books like Rising Stars which I think is fantastic (if only it didn't come out, like, once a year ) What does it for me is that each of these powered characters have their frailties and even with their powers they are not omnipotent. I used to think that of the X books before they became too fucking convoluted to follow with loose ends taking years to resolve. But it's the individual characterizations with a character's doubts, fears, hopes and joys that make it work for me.
Super powers don't bother me - it's how the writers choose to handle it that concern me more.
Me too. ![[woooOOOOoooo!]](graemlins/smilewoo.gif)
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
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living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
[QUOTE]This is why Miller's Dark Knight Returns did so well. No superhuman feats other than an obsessively driven desire to succeed.
Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that a senior citizen jumping around on rooftops and beating up a guy in his prime doesn't count as superhuman feats?
![[nyah hah]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
Seriously, though. Ostrander's MM series is highly underrated. He expanded on a lot of what Morrison and Millar began with the character and the Martian culture in JLA.
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