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Originally posted by Animalman:
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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
Well, hello, it was 9-11 !



And it demonstrates just how ignorant we are when people equate such attacks(in a horrendously general manner, even) with a religion that does not condone or encourage violence whatsoever. What tyrants(and their zealous followers) of certain middle eastern nations do they do as individuals, not representatives of Islamic ideals.



I strongly disagree. I've quoted some of what Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian,Indonesian, Afghani, Iraqi and Syrian clerics have said about Israel and the West on other topics. And about some of the violent and fanatical practices that are widely held in the Muslim world.
It's not a case of a small number of muslims believing in violence and practicing it in the name of Allah. It's that such a frightening number of them do.
Suicide bombings.
Children running across minefields in the Iran/Iraq war, martyring themselves for Allah.
Muslims in the U.S. --teenage Muslims born and educated in the U.S.-- interviewed on 60 Minutes who, frighteningly enough, say if they blew up a U.S. military base as suicide bombers, they would go to heaven.
Brutal treatment of women. A woman can't even drive a car in Saudi Arabia, let alone travel without her husband's permission.

See just a few examples I previously gave on this topic:
"Islamic Ignorance"
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=206064&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

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Originally posted by Animalman:
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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

It was remarked by a Muslim commentator, who said well before 9-11 she was spat on in Paris (hostility toward the 4 million Muslims there by many French citizens being rather high, and regarded as an intrusion on French culture), and in contrast said when she apprehensively visited New York after 9-11 her visit was without incident. That she was kindly treated.

Of the 7 million Muslims in the United States, I think less than 5 were killed in backlash incidents by angry Americans after 9-11. The only death I can recall offhand was a Hindu Sikh who worked at a convenience store and was shot because he was mistaken for a Muslim.
Many commented on how few incidents there were of angry-American-on-Muslim violence, and how there would have been many more incidents if a similar terror incident had occurred in another country.



Just because there hasn't been an overwhelming number of reported incidents doesn't mean such hatred doesn't exist. Murder is a pretty extreme circumstance. I'd imagine simple harrassment is far more common, but just as effective and demoralizing to the victims.

I'm not sure I agree with your last cite there. Perhaps as the most diverse country in the world there would be a slightly greater deal of sympathy, but I wouldn't exactly say that America is the epitome of moral kindness and decency.



Uh...

I'm sorry, but I can't accept a phantom "vast number" that is never even mentioned with quantifiable statistics.
I think that attitude is precisely what has resulted in the balkanization of America, where there are all these fragmented angry majority and minority ethnic groups that feel slighted even when nothing but their own perception can account for it.

I happen to think America is a pretty great place to live. People come here from all over the world to escape persecution. It's not a perfect society, but it's damned good, whether you're white or black or gay or asian or hispanic or muslim or whatever.
It's not a perfect society, but it's still about the best there is on this planet. And our culture is constantly questioning itself and pushing for something better.
In contrast to what you said above, I would say that America is the epitome of moral kindness and decency.

We're a pretty friendly and open-minded people, and we open our doors to pretty much the whole world.
And also provide humanitarian aid and disaster relief to pretty much the entire world. Even places like Iran and Turkey, where Americans are arguably not that popular.

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Originally posted by Animalman:
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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

That statement seems contradictory.

How so?



Just that the sentence doesn't seem to make sense. I think there's a typo, where you said "Muslim", when you actually meant "Christian", or vice versa.



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Originally posted by Animalman:
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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

And again, the case in Canada is where a Protestant and Catholic Christian majority are restrained from talking even at a funeral service about Christ, while all minority religions are not given similar restrictions about "potentially offending" anyone.

At any funeral service, or just those involving a family of differing beliefs?

If it's any funeral service, that sounds quite bizarre.



I just said in my post above, the service in Nova Scotia for Swiss Air Flight 111, in 1998. A very public ceremony.

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Originally posted by Animalman:
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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

I've spoken to enough Muslims to know that they certainly don't look favorably toward homosexuality.

Not the point. It's not about what the people believe. It's about what's law.


Beliefs can be kept personal. Beliefs aren't usually forced on other people unless they're supported by scripture or other sacred doctrine that's often followed dogmatically and recited like evidence.

I don't think there's nothing wrong with a belief. You have yours, I have mine. If they don't always overlap, oh well. It's when a hurtful belief is etched in stone and made truth, when it crosses over from opinion to fact, that's when trouble begins to brew. That's when I think it's wrong.


I again disagree strongly.

That's precisely the point. Beliefs aren't just beliefs, especially in the case of Christianity. Beliefs are verifiable truths, based on internal consistency of Bible scripture, cross-referenced with other sections of the Bible, based on the largely verifiable history described in the Bible that allows faith that the remainder is true, and the evidence of prophecy, much of which has been fulfilled, and much that continues to be fulfilled, such as the scattered zjews once again becoming a nation after 2000 years scattered abroad.
Muslims similarly believe homosexuality is immoral as well, because they, like Jews and Christians, are very scripturally-based in their beliefs.
Muslims accept the Old Testament scriptures up to the sons of Abraham. They believe Ishmael (and his descendants, the Arabs) are God's chosen people, instead of Isaac (and his descendents, the Jews). ( If you want to read about the split between Arabs and Jews, check out Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. )
But Jews and Muslims both agree on the account of Sodom and Gommorah (Genesis, chapters 18 and 19).

Freedom of religion means freedom to follow the scriptures you believe in.

Democracy means not discriminating against someone because of their religion. If a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Native American in that democracy believes something is immoral, they have the right to voice it. And certainly, the freedom to invoke the name of their savior, Jesus Christ, without being told to change their public statement because it "might be offensive".

Short of inciting violence, they have that right.

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Originally posted by Animalman:


I'll revise:

Considering a great deal of the United states population is made up of individuals who are either bi-sexuals, homosexuals, or support gay rights, it shouldn't be too surprising to see why that's an unpopular message.




Well, I have to disagree with that statement as well.

It's far from a majority who are "either bi-sexual, homosexual, or support gay rights". Even among Democrats there is very divided opinion on gay rights.
A Chicago Tribune editor in a link I posted today to the "Canada allows Gay Marriage" topic, says that even in the Chicago area, which is overwhelmingly Democrat, this is a divisive issue, and a bear for politicians to deal with. Because no matter how they address the issue, it hurts a candidate politically.


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Originally posted by Animalman:
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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

The incident of the gay man who was killed in Wyoming a few years ago, wasn't done by Christians.



No, but Fred Phelps, the man who is trying to erect a monument for Matthew Shepard(the victim) stating "Matthew Shepard entered Hell October 12, 1998 in defiance of God", and operator of the now famous godhatesfags.com website, is Christian.



The Ku Klux Klan and other White supremacist groups who have all kinds of rhetoric against blacks and Jews would also call themselves Christians.
And Reverend Jim Jones, and his Jonestown cult.

And David Koresch and his Branch Davidians.

Out of a billion or so Christians, you're going to have a few whack jobs who have some radically different ideas than the mainstream, and clearly are not practicing scripture.

The stuff I sampled about Matthew Shepard, while harsher than what I myself would say, and while I would put more emphasis on God caring about gays and wanting them to repent, what is said in this FAQ section (of their website you linked) is very scriptural and quite close to my own views, regarding the specific scriptures about homosexuality, and the clear inconsistency of homosexuality with the Bible:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html


But with the clear difference (which I think their site misses) that I think this biblical scripture is useful to point out the wrong path, to then in a spirit of kindness lead gays and everyone else to the right path.

I'd never build a monument to Matthew Shepard's death, and endorse the circumstances of his violent murder, or count the number of days he's been in Hell, as this website does.
That muddies the Biblical message, and mixes it with things that I think stray, a bit unkindly, from the point of repentance and a merciful God who welcomes all who repent.
Actually "a bit unkindly" doesn't quite cover it. Man, that monument is cold !

And it's tragic enough that this poor 21-year old kid was violently murdered, but to pick this kid out of all the gays in America to build a monument to his burning in Hell... it must be real hard for Shepard's parents, on top of having their son killed. I just see it as pointlessly singling the guy out, for some massive monument of condemnation, that even the local Christians in Wyoming who constructed a previous 10 Commandments monument, are deathly embarassed by, and they --the local Christians-- are laboring to prevent the Shepard "in Hell" monument.

I think their site is on the mark with the Biblical points in the FAQ section.
But beyond that, some of their listed specific protests and activism and photos make me more than a little uncomfortable. Chanting "God hates fags", dancing on the graves of gay activists...

There's a huge difference between reaching out with a message of invitation to a better life, explaining how gays are at odds with scripture and offering them repentance and salvation; as opposed to this site, telling gays that God hates them.

I sent them a constructively critical e-mail, for whatever that's worth.

I think one clear mark of Christianity is whether it has reverence for the Jews, who are clearly God's chosen people through which His message has been brought to all nations and races through the Bible, Jewish prophets and Jewish kings, and ultimately its Jewish messiah, Jesus Christ.

Any branch of "Christianity" that denounces Jews, and ignores that Jesus was a Jew, denies that 11 of the 12 apostles were Jews, and most of the early church for hundreds of years were Jewish, and ignores that end-time prophecy is focused on Israel facing off with and being protected against a renewed "Babylon" (or a revived Roman Empire) is really in denial about what Christianity is, and through whom God shapes the world, past, present and future, through his enduring protection of the Jews.
And while men throughout the Bible disobey God, He allows them to suffer for a time for their disobendience, but ultimately wants to save them. And ultimately forgives them, and works events toward their redemption.
And ultimately, the Bible teaches to forgive others, as God has forgiven you.

Judgement is reserved for God alone. And to take vengeance is to cheat God of His vengeance, and thwart the will of God, diverting God's working of things to their perfect end, in His own chosen time.

And that God disapproves of certain acts, but ultimately want everyone to seek and accept redemption. Jews, Christians, gays, criminals, even Muslims. So no one is beyond redemption.

So violence in the Christian world, such as blowing up an abortion clinic, is something where Christians worldwide roll their eyes with embarassment. They clearly, in the vast majority, don't believe in or advocate such acts in the name of Christianity.


That's my problem with Islam, is that so many muslims DO agree with violence in the name of Islam, and see it as noble and heroic.

And that so frequently, the Islamic clergy itself whips up the rhetoric of violence and endorses it in the name of Allah, throughout the Muslim world, but particularly in the Palestinian territories and Israel, and in neighboring states.

To say nothing of the even more virulent Whahabism, and its offspring Al Qaida, spreading a gospel of Islamic violence and terror to every corner of the globe. The Phillipines, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Sudan, Algeria, you name it. Wherever their missionaries go, Islamic violence follows.

It's not a stereotype, young muslims all over the world believe in Jihad, whether they attend universities in Cairo, or Indonesia, or Islamic schools in the U.S.

I have no problem believing that millions, among the billion or so Muslims worldwide, practice Islam peacefully.

But I do think violence among Muslims is a rampant problem.
And not just a threat to the United States.
And not just to The West.
But to India and China as well, and to all non-Muslims worldwide.

And a threat to Muslims who don't follow the fanatical trends as well.

In Turkey and Iraq, among other places, a lot of innocent Muslims have died also, in just the last month.
And in the Kenya and Tanzania bombings, and in the 9-11 World Trade Center bombing as well. Islamic terrorism takes a heavy toll on Muslims.

So I tend to look at violence in the Christian world as an isolated embarrassment, and violence in the Islamic world as a widely taught and admired pattern.