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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
I strongly disagree. I've quoted some of what Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian,Indonesian, Afghani, Iraqi and Syrian clerics have said about Israel and the West on other topics. And about some of the violent and fanatical practices that are widely held in the Muslim world.
It's not a case of a small number of muslims believing in violence and practicing it in the name of Allah. It's that such a frightening number of them do.
Suicide bombings.
Children running across minefields in the Iran/Iraq war.
Muslims in the U.S. interviewed on 60 Minutes who, frighteningly enough, say if they blew up a U.S. military base as suicide bombers, they would go to heaven.
Brutal treatment of women. A woman can't even drive a car in Saudi Arabia, let alone travel without her husband's permission.
Islam is the world's fast growing and most diverse religion, found in nations all across the globe. Clearly, it's largest base is in Saudi Arabia, but that is certainly not the only area in which it has a significant presence. This is a good website on the different Islamic practices and communities in Europe.

It's a difficult question to answer, whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion. This happens to be one of the few things George Bush and I agree upon; I think it is. A large number of non-middle eastern believers(which I think supports my belief that the cultural ideology of that region is just that; the cultural ideology of that region, not of Islam in general) have denounced the actions of 9/11 as a warping of Islam's message(the most notorious would probably be Cat Stevens).

Of course, as I've said on other related topics, I think this is the problem with all widely supported organized religions. The farther they spread from the original source, the more the message will become twisted, skewed and distorted to accomodate the political agendas of the nation it touches.

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I think that attitude is precisely what has resulted in the balkanization of America, where there are all these fragmented angry majority and minority ethnic groups that feel slighted even when nothing but their own perception can account for it.
No offense intended here, but I feel the same way about Christians that complain that their beliefs are being restricted, despite the fact that Christianity continues to dominate America as the prominent belief system.

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In contrast to what you said above, I would say that America is the epitome of moral kindness and decency.
Only in a truly fucked up world could that be true. And, sadly, it just might be.

....though, didn't you say a page or two ago, that:

"We've become a society with no standards, or at best, moral relativism."

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We're a pretty friendly and open-minded people, and we open our doors to pretty much the whole world.
Apparently not open minded enough to support gay marriages, a peaceful and completely harmless activity which isn't denied or even debated when involving non-gays.

I'm not trying to bash America, if that's what you're implying(and I don't think it is, but I'll say it just in case), I definitely can't complain about my position as an American. However, I don't believe that America is "better" than any other country(and I wouldn't know how to go about quantifying who is "better" than whom), and it's clear(just from my many encounters and conversations with foreigners, even with some of those on this very message board) that the rest of the world views us as snotty, arrogant and pretentious, enveloped in our self-proclaimed greatness. Perhaps there's something to that.

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Just that the sentence doesn't seem to make sense. I think there's a typo, where you said "Muslim", when you actually meant "Christian", or vice versa.
I just re-read it and I don't see it. I've never used the term "Muslim", anyway.

Basically, my point was that if a terrorist attack was organized by prominent Christian figures, Christianity would probably be defended to counter any possible backlash against Christians in America, just as I Islam has been defended to counter any possible backlash against Islamic people in America. Now, this doesn't mean that there actually has been a backlash against the Islamic, just that it's defended to help ensure that there won't be.

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I just said above the service in Nova Scotia for Swiss Air Flight 111, in 1998. A very public ceremony.
......maybe the Swiss aren't Christian??? I have no idea.

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Muslims believe homosexuality is immoral as well, because they, like Jews and Christians, are very scripturally-based in their beliefs.
Muslims seem to accept the Old Testament scriptures up to the sons of Abraham. They believe Ishmael (and his descendants, the Arabs) are God's chosen people, instead of Isaac (and his descendents, the Jews). ( If you want to read it, check out Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. )
But Jews and Muslims both agree on the account of Sodom and Gommorah (Genesis, chapters 18 and 19).
Then they're far less boisterous than the anti-gay protestors I've seen.

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Freedom of religion means freedom to follow the scriptures you believe in.

Democracy means not discriminating against someone because of their religion. If a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Native American in that democracy believes something is immoral, they have the right to voice it. Not to be told to change their public statement because it "might be offensive".
Of course, but a funeral is a performed service, not a public protest. Was this a request made by the party that put the funeral together, or a government madate?

If the group paying for the funeral doesn't wish to have views presented that they don't agree with, they have the right to ask that those views not be expressed, since, as I said, they're paying for the service.

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It's far from a majority who are "either bi-sexual, homosexual, or support gay rights". Even among Democrats there is very divided opinion on gay rights.
A Chicago Tribune editor in a link I posted today to the "Canada allows Gay Marriage" topic, says that even in the Chicago area, which is overwhelmingly Democrat, this is a divisive issue, and a bear for politicians to deal with. Because no matter how they address the issue, it hurts a candidate politically.
I didn't say it was a majority. I said a "great deal". There was a poll conducted after the Supreme Court overturned the "Texas Sodomy" that said that 40% of Americans(61% of Americans ages 18-29) were in favor of passing a law allowing gays to be married. If there are 40 million people in America, that's 16 million Americans that support gay marriage. To me, 16 million is a "great deal".

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Out of a billion or so Christians, you're going to have a few whack jobs who have some radically different ideas than the mainstream, and clearly are not practicing scripture.
Clearly not practicing scripture? The website I linked is filled with quotes from the bible. As is the Klu Klux Klan's website. Now, I don't think those views are typical of Christians. I've met and talked to more than enough(living in Texas, and having attended a Catholic high school) to know that's not the case. I understand that.

What I don't understand is how you can say that these are whackos with radical views that aren't representative of Christian ideals, but you don't seem to believe the same is true for Muslims and people like Osama Bin Laden.

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That's my problem with Islam, is that so many muslims DO agree with violence in the name of Islam, and see it as noble and heroic.
I'll have to vehemently disagree here. I also have to say I think this is a fairly hypocritical and even slightly pretentious belief. I don't think there's much of any difference between Muslims and Christians, at least in their general beliefs and behavior. They're peaceful people who, unfortunately, have a violent history following their religion, and, in some cases, suffer for that.

I don't mean that as a personal attack, it's just my opinion.