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Good for you, theo. Sometimes there are really good reasons to burn a flag. You don't have to disrespect your country to show your deep feelings on what your country is doing (or failing to do).
Outside the US....If you were a Saudi, and you opposed having Christian soldiers on holy lands, shouldn't you be entitled to burn the US flag in protest? (You can't, by the way.)
Or if you were a Chilean (like Mxy) and opposed US intervention in your domestic affairs whcih toppled your duly elected leader and installed a dictatorship responsible for the deaths and disappearances of thousands of people, shouldn't you have every right to burn the US flag?
If you can't burn the flag and let your hatred of whatever it is that has offended you be known, then what are your alternatives?
Frankly, I'm gratified that students in Indonesia burn the Aussie flag as opposed to targetting Australian tourists. Let them burn it.
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again, this continues my view of the problem.
some of the reasons theo or you brought up could easily be considered "valid." tho im still against the notion and dont like the idea of the flag burning, i can completely understand those justifications.
.... which are only entirely dilluted when the flag is burned beacuse of a "town curfew," or some other ridiculous reasoning.
my problem, as said, is with the reasoning.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
some of the reasons theo or you brought up could easily be considered "valid."
Why couldn't they be considered valid?
tho im still against the notion and dont like the idea of the flag burning, i can completely understand those justifications.
I think if flagburning makes people feel uncomfortable, then good! People should be made to feel uncomfortable every so often, so as to acknowledge the world around them.
.... which are only entirely dilluted when the flag is burned beacuse of a "town curfew," or some other ridiculous reasoning.
If people are burning flags for this reason, two things immediately spring to mind: 1) they're stupid and 2) people are giving them too much undeserved attention.
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quote:
Originally posted by theory9:
Why couldn't they be considered valid?
depends on the person asked
quote:
Originally posted by theory9:
I think if flagburning makes people feel uncomfortable, then good! People should be made to feel uncomfortable every so often, so as to acknowledge the world around them.
i've found it possible to acknowledge the world around me without feeling uncomfortable. it y'haven't, i think thats unfortunate, but should hardly require me to.
quote:
Originally posted by theory9:
If people are burning flags for this reason, two things immediately spring to mind: 1) they're stupid and 2) people are giving them too much undeserved attention.
agreed on both parts.
but it still happens.
frequently.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
again, this continues my view of the problem.
some of the reasons theo or you brought up could easily be considered "valid." tho im still against the notion and dont like the idea of the flag burning, i can completely understand those justifications.
.... which are only entirely dilluted when the flag is burned beacuse of a "town curfew," or some other ridiculous reasoning.
my problem, as said, is with the reasoning.
So at the end of the day, your position is, "Its ok to burn the flag, as long as you're not doing it in a petty act of attention seeking"?
I can live with that.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
So at the end of the day, your position is, "Its ok to burn the flag, as long as you're not doing it in a petty act of attention seeking"?
sorta.
i guess the better way to phrase it would be "im much less upset by" rather than "ok"
like, i have a better understanding and "appreciation" (lack of MUCH better term) for why its being done... but i still don't like it.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
i've found it possible to acknowledge the world around me without feeling uncomfortable. it y'haven't, i think thats unfortunate, but should hardly require me to.
You made a big leap of faith there, Rob. I never said any such thing. Furthermore, I haven't--and would never--"require(d)" you do so.
Looking through some of your posts, I see your emphasis on symbolism to be our major point of departure. A symbol can represent whatever someone wants; they can be twisted and molded to fit in any number of ways.
I'm interested in ideas. Ideas don't stand for anything precisely because they're ideas. No one can burn an idea: it stands on its own. Now, if you take away the flag (don't ask the Native Americans here in New Mexico what it symbolizes to them) and what do you have?
What does America look like when the flag is set aside and the patriotism dies down?
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i see whatcher sayin, theo....
and yes, yer absolutely right that a symbol can take on a twisted negative as much as it can take on the positive. but simply because there are negative connotations shouldn't remove the positive from those who feel it.
surely, ideas have the strength and the energy -- but symbols can spread it! the power of the idea instilled within the symbol by those who give it strength.
a cross is just a cross, but to a christian, its the ultimate symbol of faith, to the point where most wear them and churches are adorned in them.
yes, the ideas and concepts of the religion are there, and surely more powerful, but the cross is the embodiment and representation of it. the religion, faith, prayers, wishes, and people themselves are part of the symbole.
the soon-to-be-completed WWII monument will be just a buncha small monuments, but its a invaluable memorial veterans of that war. a carving of a wolf is just a wolf, but to many northern navaho natives, its a symbol or strength and prescense. hell, lookit the superman S shield in the world of comics -- its just a logo. but the big guy wears it proud cuz he knows what it symbolizes to all he protects.
im not advocating leniency or perfection towards america, just because a flag is kept clean. but when there are literally millions of people that are filled with nothing but pride and joy in their country, and do everything they can to protect and better it...
i tend to think its a wonderful symbol, with too much meaning to burn.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
its not the item burning, its the emotional investment and attachment to it. its a symbol in more ways than one.
I agree Rob.
If you really wanna burn a SYMBOL of what some people hate about America how bout lightin up a dollar bill...
Don't see too many folks doin that.
I have way to much respect for those who gave their lives for the Flag (any national flag) and what it meant to them to ever consider buring one in protest.
I mean if that's what you wanna do... Go ahead, here's a match.
Its a right you have that I wouldn't think taking away as long as I have the same right to be proud of it.
I think that for most its just a show or photo op anyway without any real thought about anything but making an immediate statement...
As for Americans buring the flag, well it kinda reminds me of work...
Everybody bitches but nobody quits.
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Word. ![[woooOOOOoooo!]](graemlins/smilewoo.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
its not the item burning, its the emotional investment and attachment to it. its a symbol in more ways than one.
I agree Rob.
If you really wanna burn a SYMBOL of what some people hate about America how bout lightin up a dollar bill...
Don't see too many folks doin that.
No, because although it might be an equally effective symbol its an exchangable commodity which people will not wantonly destroy. Besides, it doesn't have the same impact.
quote:
I have way to much respect for those who gave their lives for the Flag (any national flag) and what it meant to them to ever consider buring one in protest.
You do no service to the people who died for your country if you do not exercise the rights and freedoms for which they laid down their lives. One of those rights is freddom of expression - which includes flag burning.
quote:
I mean if that's what you wanna do... Go ahead, here's a match.
Its a right you have that I wouldn't think taking away as long as I have the same right to be proud of it.
I think that for most its just a show or photo op anyway without any real thought about anything but making an immediate statement...
The idea in flag burning is to make an immediate but profound statement of disagreement.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
i see whatcher sayin, theo....
and yes, yer absolutely right that a symbol can take on a twisted negative as much as it can take on the positive. but simply because there are negative connotations shouldn't remove the positive from those who feel it.
....i tend to think its a wonderful symbol, with too much meaning to burn.
But still, you acknowledge that it means different and often negative things to different people, who can and do react to it in a different way to you - one of those reactions being to burn it.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
You do no service to the people who died for your country if you do not exercise the rights and freedoms for which they laid down their lives. One of those rights is freddom of expression - which includes flag burning.
and another one of those rights and freedoms is to hate the people who do burn it, is it not?
no one here (as far as i can see) is removing anyone's rights or freedoms by expressing disapproval in the actions of another.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
But still, you acknowledge that it means different and often negative things to different people, who can and do react to it in a different way to you - one of those reactions being to burn it.
my main argument at this point, is that most people that burn the flag have no respect in the flag, much less respect in those that do.
the people that are burning it have little or no regard for me or my feelings. they have no respect for what the flag stands for to the millions who have died serving for it. they take no time out to realize the importance that piece of cloth has to families of those who protected it until their last.
bringing up my comic book scenario from before -- something that has great value to you and is destroyed by someone else who has no grasp of what it means is a crime. just, in this case, not by a legal standpoint.
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You can take advantage of your right of expression all you want, but does anyone really think they can win anyone over to their cause by completely disregarding others' feelings?
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
You can take advantage of your right of expression all you want, but does anyone really think they can win anyone over to their cause by completely disregarding others' feelings?
Very well spoken.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
You do no service to the people who died for your country if you do not exercise the rights and freedoms for which they laid down their lives. One of those rights is freddom of expression - which includes flag burning.
Hey Dave, before you condemn me for not appreciating someone’s right to freedom of expression MAYBE you should read the entire post first:
quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
I mean if that's what you wanna do... Go ahead, here's a match. Its a right you have that I wouldn't think taking away as long as I have the same right to be proud of it.
So how again am I denying ANYONE of their freedom of expression?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
The idea in flag burning is to make an immediate but profound statement of disagreement.
I always find it amusing what a one-way street freedom of expression sometimes is. Do you think someone would “appreciate” my freedom of expression and NOT burn a flag?
Didn’t think so.
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
You can take advantage of your right of expression all you want, but does anyone really think they can win anyone over to their cause by completely disregarding others' feelings?
You'll never win over someone to your cause if their position is firmly entrenched against yours: you can rally people to your cause by destroying a symbol of oppression or whatever.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
You do no service to the people who died for your country if you do not exercise the rights and freedoms for which they laid down their lives. One of those rights is freddom of expression - which includes flag burning.
Hey Dave, before you condemn me for not appreciating someone’s right to freedom of expression MAYBE you should read the entire post first:
quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
I mean if that's what you wanna do... Go ahead, here's a match. Its a right you have that I wouldn't think taking away as long as I have the same right to be proud of it.
So how again am I denying ANYONE of their freedom of expression?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
The idea in flag burning is to make an immediate but profound statement of disagreement.
I always find it amusing what a one-way street freedom of expression sometimes is. Do you think someone would “appreciate” my freedom of expression and NOT burn a flag?
Didn’t think so.
Actually I did read your entire post, and I wasn't condemning you: I thought you might respond as you did. I was endeavouring to express a different perspective on it.
Your last paragraph makes no sense to me - what do you mean?
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Actually Dave, I was the one who originally misread your post. My bad. I still think on the surface your argument is ludicrous quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
You do no service to the people who died for your country if you do not exercise the rights and freedoms for which they laid down their lives. One of those rights is freddom of expression - which includes flag burning.
Well I certainly never suggested THEY couldn’t. I said I wouldn’t.
What exactly are you suggesting? By not participating in or agreeing with flag burning that I am somehow dishonor the memories of those who served? That one can only honor something by opposing it?
quote:
[b]Your last paragraph makes no sense to me - what do you mean? [/QB]
Sorry
I was trying to say that if one is expected to listen with respect to those with opposing voices couldn’t one expect the same in return?
Isn’t that really freedom of expression?
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
Actually Dave, I was the one who originally misread your post.
My bad.
I still think on the surface your argument is ludicrous
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
You do no service to the people who died for your country if you do not exercise the rights and freedoms for which they laid down their lives. One of those rights is freddom of expression - which includes flag burning.
Well I certainly never suggested THEY couldn’t. I said I wouldn’t.
What exactly are you suggesting? By not participating in or agreeing with flag burning that I am somehow dishonor the memories of those who served? That one can only honor something by opposing it?
In a broader sense, what I'm suggesting is that you should exercise your rights to their fullest capability. I'm not suggesting that you run out in the street and burn a flag, but that you engage in ferocious enjoyment of your rights. If however that should happen to include flag burning - anyone's flag, not just the stars and Stripes, in protest against a government or policies - then I would applaud that.
quote:
quote:
[b]Your last paragraph makes no sense to me - what do you mean?
Sorry
I was trying to say that if one is expected to listen with respect to those with opposing voices couldn’t one expect the same in return?
Isn’t that really freedom of expression? [/QB]
I actually call that rational and mature debate. I'm not sure that "freedom of expression" stretches that far. ![[wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
In a broader sense, what I'm suggesting is that you should exercise your rights to their fullest capability. I'm not suggesting that you run out in the street and burn a flag, but that you engage in ferocious enjoyment of your rights. If however that should happen to include flag burning - anyone's flag, not just the stars and Stripes, in protest against a government or policies - then I would applaud that
so burn the flag, just because?
start up a cult, just because?
sue time warner, just because?
spit on the homeless, just because?
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
You can take advantage of your right of expression all you want, but does anyone really think they can win anyone over to their cause by completely disregarding others' feelings?
Like:
Manifest destiny?
Jim Crow?
Slavery?
Japanese-American internment camps?
Civil rights battles?
Lynchings?
Womans' suffrage?
Detaining innocent Arabs post-9/11?
Wars waged to maintain our "Grand Area"?
This isn't winning anyone to any side, but expressing sentiments that prove the symbol is not accurate. People who tell me how great this country is often lack the experience of being taken to jail for making an illegal U-turn, or being accused of crimes because of ethicity. This is America too.
People seem to actively ignore these facts. The way that slavery and other dicey historical issues are whitewashed in academic and political circles is inexcusable. These facts are also America.
If someone burns a flag in front of me, I'm much more likely to wonder why they're doing it than automatically condemning the act. For some people, America isn't always what it's supposed to be.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
In a broader sense, what I'm suggesting is that you should exercise your rights to their fullest capability. I'm not suggesting that you run out in the street and burn a flag, but that you engage in ferocious enjoyment of your rights. If however that should happen to include flag burning - anyone's flag, not just the stars and Stripes, in protest against a government or policies - then I would applaud that
so burn the flag, just because?
start up a cult, just because?
sue time warner, just because?
spit on the homeless, just because?
No, because then I impinge upon someone else's rights. In setting fire to a flag, I'm expressing an opinion without harming anyone. If I spit on someone, I'm assaulting them.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
No, because then I impinge upon someone else's rights. In setting fire to a flag, I'm expressing an opinion without harming anyone. If I spit on someone, I'm assaulting them.
fine, don't spit on them literally. spit by them literally, and spit on them figuratively.
ignore the homeless. the impoverished. foreign policies! trick the elderly into buying things they don't need. sue a store anytime you fall in it. protest a movie. be a racist.
there are tons of ways to "express" your rights and freedoms. shit, most all the bad crap that theo mentioned up there was, at one time, fine and right by the law.
i guess an important question is: at what point does expression become abuse?
quote:
Originally posted by theory9:
If someone burns a flag in front of me, I'm much more likely to wonder why they're doing it than automatically condemning the act.
and often, after finding out why, im disgusted to know them at all.
real life and sad examples:
i delete some posts on the dcmbs cuz people likes to talk the trash. someone is offended by my deleting their posts as start screaming censorship. for starters, thats a knock at anyone who actually went thru censorship.
getting worse, there are cases where after deleting posts, people lash out with the nazi stuff. i, or dc, or whomever "ratted them out" become hitlers, and they compare their struggles with that of jews. or, within the past few months, as muslims.
and these aren't always just a buncha uneducated kids -- there are 40 and 50 year old, established men and women that come at me with crap like that. over an internet message board forum, used to discuss comic books, no less.
no jokes here, i got the emails saved.
these are some of the types of people that burn flags, out of protest.
(and no, im not saying there aren't individuals out there who have actual cases that could be considered valid)
quote:
Originally posted by theory9:
For some people, America isn't always what it's supposed to be.
theo, don't get me wrong, i understand what yer sayin, and hell yeah, yer absolutely right. there's a lotta scumbaggy stuff out there. im not trying to belittle it.
but in claiming that people ignore the bad stuff, you're seemingly ignoring the good stuff.
there are good americans.
think about, for example, all the black wwII vets, who even putting up with all the shit that they did, and do, put up with, love their frickin country like nothing else.
they did no wrong by you.
but burning a flag does wrong by them.
its not just a statement of protest against the government or the country or the stereotyped, proverbial luthor-like beaurocrats, that gather in the white house, with finger tips meeting on edge as they whisper evil thoughts amongst one another.
its a knock at the heart of the good of the country, the good people.
no, im not suggesting that the crap get swept under the carpet, to help emphasize the good.
but i surely wont suggest the opposite.
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quote:
fine, don't spit on them literally. spit by them literally, and spit on them figuratively.
ignore the homeless. the impoverished. foreign policies! trick the elderly into buying things they don't need. sue a store anytime you fall in it. protest a movie. be a racist.
there are tons of ways to "express" your rights and freedoms. shit, most all the bad crap that theo mentioned up there was, at one time, fine and right by the law.
i guess an important question is: at what point does expression become abuse?
Abuse is legal (it can at a point become defamation). I can call anyone a fucking dickhead, and they can't stop me.
OK, lets set aside the Old Glory for a moment. I read this morning that Suu Kyi was arrested this morning by the military junta in Burma. They are a bunch of murderous pricks.
Would you be offended if I went to the Burmese embassy and burned their flag as a form of protest?
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Our beloved Web host Rob said:
"I guess an important question is: at what point does expression become abuse?"
While I'm no attorney or legal scholar, I am a student of human behavior and a smart enough guy to have a thoughtful opinion on this. And yes, I state categorically upfront that it's my opinion.
Expression becomes abuse when it can be demonstrated that the expression cause another harm beyond simple discomfort or offense. IOW, it's not enough to say my expression is abusive if all I've done is hurt your feelings.
It seems to me, lately, that the U.S. has far too many people who feel that they deserve remuneration simply because they've had their feelings hurt.
Rob, I haven't read through this entire thread, but from what posts of yours I have read I'm guessing that flag-burning is a big issue to you. You appear to have deep feelings on the subject and that you find it offensive to see someone (perhaps especially an American) burning the Stars and Stripes. I can respect that. But I am of the opinion that a U.S. citizen burning his/her flag tends to be expressing one of the strongest, most visibile forms of disagreement with his/her government, and disagreeing with one's government (without breaking any already-established laws) is a keystone to being an American. Now, for me personally, I've never been against my government enough that I felt motivated to burn our flag. But some do, and those with genuine concerns about our government should be able to make this expression without fear of retaliation. Yes, Rob, you may hate it and you may verbally express your disdain for that person's actions.
The recent War with Iraq (hello, where are the WMDs, people???) seems to have brought out a lot of "shut up and don't question your government," or "if you don't like America, leave" statements. Those sentiments both run fundamentally counter to what many of us perceive to be a crucial aspect of the foundation of the United States: You can verbally disagree with your government and its policies and not receive State-Sanctioned punishment for it (that's why we have elections every 4 years, gang, so that we can express any disagreement with our Central Government on a fairly regular basis). That is what makes America great.
--Jim
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Would you be offended if I went to the Burmese embassy and burned their flag as a form of protest?
its probably the same situation as when you asked me about an iraqi flag, a few posts up.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Jackson:
Rob, {snip} I'm guessing that flag-burning is a big issue to you.
not really, believe it or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Jackson:
But I am of the opinion that a U.S. citizen burning his/her flag tends to be expressing one of the strongest, most visibile forms of disagreement with his/her government, and disagreeing with one's government (without breaking any already-established laws) is a keystone to being an American.
which i agree with.
this is where the rest of my posts come into play, jim :)
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Jackson:
Now, for me personally, I've never been against my government enough that I felt motivated to burn our flag. But some do, and those with genuine concerns about our government should be able to make this expression without fear of retaliation.
ill also agree with that.
as long as heavy emphasis is placed upon "genuine."
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Jackson:
Yes, Rob, you may hate it and you may verbally express your disdain for that person's actions.
which im actually glad you point out.
most, even some here, often forget that freedoms flow equally like that.
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A few questions for both sides.
Is there a diffence between burning a US falg (say, one you bought for yourself at Wal-Mart or had you grandmother sew up for you) and burning an official or consecrated flag (one that flew over a gov't building, militay unit, school, graced a soldiers coffin, etc)?
Is there a difference between burning the current flag and an old one (one with 48 stars, for example)?
Is burning the stars & bars different than burning the stars & stripes? Is flying or saluting it?
Is using the flag to sell product cooler than burning one?
Cheers!
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Is there a diffence between burning a US falg (say, one you bought for yourself at Wal-Mart or had you grandmother sew up for you) and burning an official or consecrated flag (one that flew over a gov't building, militay unit, school, graced a soldiers coffin, etc)?
nossir.
tho burning an official one will probably get you jailed (since it wasn't yours)
quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Is there a difference between burning the current flag and an old one (one with 48 stars, for example)?
same
quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Is burning the stars & bars different than burning the stars & stripes? Is flying or saluting it?
all flags are different and have different meanings to different people. the US flag is one of few that you're actually allowed to burn.
quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Is using the flag to sell product cooler than burning one?
both legal, but both pretty sad, in my opinion.
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That's cool Rob, we agree on three out of four. That first one always drags me in. If they are the same, it seems like you (not you, personally) are talking about trying to control very personal behavior, if not thought. I can't envision and construct a replica of the flag & then destroy it? I can't buy one from a merchant & then destroy it? I can't accept that. To me the only real flags are the consecrated ones. The others are just commercial products or artwork. Burning a flag is just like blood splashed on a fur coat - long as it's my fur coat,it's legit.
Cheers!
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
the soon-to-be-completed WWII monument will be just a buncha small monuments, but its a invaluable memorial veterans of that war.
Or.....
quote:
Few oppose the idea of a monument in honor of those Americans who fought and died in that last great struggle of liberty over totalitarianism, but the planned memorial does little to honor our fallen citizens.
Rather than being a true memorial to American veterans and casualties of the war, the proposed structure looks more like a monument to the war itself. This idea runs counter to everything the veterans of World War II fought for.
The design, by architect Friedrich St. Florian, consists of a sunken plaza, containing a scaled-down version of the current rainbow reflecting pool, with two fountains. Fifty-six plain stone pillars bearing bronze wreaths line the area, as well as two four-story triumphal arches with four large bronze eagles. Los Angeles Times architecture critic Nicolai Ouroussoff has compared the design to something Adolph Hitler might have commissioned back in the ¹30s.
sorry for the threadcrap but rob mentioning the WWII memorial made me recall that quite a few veterans groups were OPPOSED to that monstrosity that is currently being built to supposedly honor them.
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
the soon-to-be-completed WWII monument will be just a buncha small monuments, but its a invaluable memorial veterans of that war.
Or.....
quote:
Few oppose the idea of a monument in honor of those Americans who fought and died in that last great struggle of liberty over totalitarianism, but the planned memorial does little to honor our fallen citizens.
Rather than being a true memorial to American veterans and casualties of the war, the proposed structure looks more like a monument to the war itself. This idea runs counter to everything the veterans of World War II fought for.
The design, by architect Friedrich St. Florian, consists of a sunken plaza, containing a scaled-down version of the current rainbow reflecting pool, with two fountains. Fifty-six plain stone pillars bearing bronze wreaths line the area, as well as two four-story triumphal arches with four large bronze eagles. Los Angeles Times architecture critic Nicolai Ouroussoff has compared the design to something Adolph Hitler might have commissioned back in the ¹30s.[/
sorry for the threadcrap but rob mentioning the WWII memorial made me recall that quite a few veterans groups were OPPOSED to that monstrosity that is currently being built to supposedly honor them on the grounds that it resembles something as fascistic as what they were fighting against in the 1st place .
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As for the whole issue of flag burning. I would defend it just as I would defend a KKK rally. I dopn't have to like it but I do have to understand that freedom is about allowing unpopular opinions as well as popular ones a chance to be voiced and expressed.
Someone also mentioned that it's a good attention grabber. I would have to agree. I live in Los Angeles, a place many of you would deride as "liberal", and yet whenever there is a traditional non violent march with picket signs and such, the TV anchors ALWAYS ALWAYS dismiss it as "shades of the 60's" and never actually discuss just what is being protested in the 1st place. I can only imagine how protests are presented in more conservative parts of the country. That dismissive attitude and failure to even adress the greivances pretty much nullifies the entire purpouse of the march IMO. That's why I've come to the opinion that the only way to actually be heard anymore by the corporate media is to wage Seattle style WTO rebellion. And that includes flag burning. If that is what it takes to get more than 5 seconds of air time to actually get heard, then so be it. As the WTO protests showed anyway, that isn't exactly going to guarantee that the truth of the matter will be told but at least it puts the media in the position of having to publicly lie to garner support for the heavy handed response and actually devote some time to just what the meeting being protested was about in the 1st place as was the case in Seattle.
To me a flag is just a flag. It's the ideals the country was founded on that matter. Yes, the flag is a symbol of the country, but it can also be a symbol of the current government, or even a political party that thinks they can commandeer the flag to represent themselves. The flag can represent U.S. foreign policy to non-american's in foreign countries that protest us. Burning a flag doesn't have to mean that you hate or disrespect America itself. I personally would be more upset if someone burned a copy of the Constitution than I would be about a flag.
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Hmm. Where can I get a copy of the constitu... Just kidding!
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quote:
Originally posted by rufusTfirefly:
quote:
Originally posted by Xyzandra:
Its not as if it means anything.
Wooo. A Flag. Lets Build a Sandcastle.
Xy
Yeah, thanks. I'm sure all the people who died fighting for you to have the freedom to say that really appreciate your support...
I should have to say BULLOX to that, Sure I´m glad I´m speaking Danish, and not German, but I don´t have any appreciation for America coming to save Europes butt from Hitler, because I wasn´t born then, I was born in 81.
Let´s be hypothetical here. Let´s say that my grandfather was a member of the Nazi SS (which he, for the record, was NOT!!!) and killed a number of Jews during WW2. The families of the victims now wants compensation for the lives of their loved ones (which is understandeble)
The question is as follows, Should I be held responsible for something my grandfather did, should I have to pay for my grandfathers crimes???
Answer: HELL NO I´M NOT!!!
relation between the two things, Should I be appreciative towards a foreign nation for something it did for my nation several decades before I was born?
Answer: No I should not, and why, because I was not born then, and me speaking Danish and not German, and my nation being a sovereign nation, that´s a thing I, and every single Danish citisen take for granted!
But in regards to burning flags, i believe in some countries it is illegal. To tell the truth I´m not quite sure whether it is legal or not in Denmark, but I do know that you cannot wave a foreign flag in Denmark, as I believe is the same thing in the USA.
Besides, I would be a little offended if someone burned a Danish Flag, and I mean that seriously, just to show a little solidarity with you!
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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Thanks for the link to that article, whomod. It really shows how pathetic the Bush-haters are becoming. :lol: Nothing directed at you, btw.
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
Thanks for the link to that article, whomod. It really shows how pathetic the Bush-haters are becoming. :lol: Nothing directed at you, btw.
C'Mon, you hypocrite, if it would have been a dreaded "liberal" defacing a flag, you and all of AM radio would have been flogging that horse to death.
Tell me i'm wrong. I dare ya.
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