I see this has degenerated in my absence.

A word of advice to Jack and Kassandra: don't fight bsams. He and I had a bust-up which lasted a year. He's too stubborn and tenacious - he just won't give up. Its not worth it.

And as his mate Mkisofs told me in the middle of our brawl, "Fighting on the internet is just like competing in the Paralympics: even if you win, you're still a spastic."

quote:

you know...

i never thought that jack could actually be right...

until yesterday.

i was watching CNN, and they kept showing george bush giving this speech at the pentagon. and, i dunno... i just saw something in him that i had never seen before.

and, honestly, it made me think that, really, he DID sacrefice the lives of thousands of innocents, on our soil and others, so that he could get gas for a $1.20 instead of $1.40.

i took a few screen captures of the interview...

maybe you could see what jack, and now i, see, too:

LMAO! Kudos to you, Kamphausen.

quote:

just curious here, but what is it about jack's desire to know truth, to see the beliefs and principles laid out for us as children during our indoctrination (sorry, "schooling")adhered to that seems to bother some here? this is, of course, not inclusive of those psych cases who parade about the streets naked, for no other reason than to get our attention, mindless of the picture they paint and the stereotypes they only validate in doing so. i'll pay them a kindness they'd never consider, and not mention any names.

if some are happy to sleep their way through life, never challenging that which is spoon-fed them, then so be it. that is their coice. likewise, if others do not settle for that, they have every right to pursue the clarification they feel necessary. perhaps that is a symptom of their own love for country? perhaps they give more than lip-service to that, unlike so many in our society who only replaced their laker (insert sports team here) flags with that of the united states until the plastic banners faded and they moved on to the next thing. gods forbid that the temporary changes we experienced, the insights we gained in the days and weeks following the attacks prevail. some say it's only human nature to do so. right. what a bloody cop-out.

we must all hold to our own truths, or seek them out. why must one invalidate the other? agree to disagree and just be done with it. some take our "freedoms" for granted. i have a greater respect for those who battle in the name of truth and justice. pity such a thing is inconvenient to those who don't want to have to think further than their own insular worlds.

oh, and rob, jack doesn't spend the days and nights of his life attached to a computer in some dank cave. it's actually a rather roomy house in the san juan's. not that i'd expect you to know that. i do, because he happens to be a much cherished friend of mine, who quite often pushes me to think beyond the precipice of my experience, and i am quite grateful for that. thanks for taking the piss of us.

-kassandra
Voltaire said something like "I may disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

The fact that you have the capacity for this debate speaks very well for your country. Questioning your government keeps it on its toes, and accountable to its people. I live a few miles from 1.2 billion people who don't have that luxury (and the only reason I do is because of the tenacity of the British). From a non-American perspective, in rationally debating this topic, you're all being good Americans.

(Calling someone a "brown shirt" is attacking the man, Jack, not the argument, which I called you out on before. It is not rational debate. Dave the Wonder Boy is a decent and good man, for all that we have opposite opinions on most things, and doesn't deserve the slur.)

But beyond the issue of the spirit of debate and the fact that it is a credit to your institutions, Kassandra is right. Its a good thing to be open to counter-intuitive ways of looking at the truth. "Insularity" or blind acceptance does not test the truth. The truth can handle challenge, and should welcome it.