Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#238683 2003-02-13 3:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
25+ posts
25+ posts
Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
From the Opinion Journal: http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110003057

BY JAMES TARANTO
Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:55 p.m. EST
Weasel Watch--I
The Times of London reports Germany's coalition government "was on the brink of collapse yesterday" because of a spat between Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, a Social Democrat, and Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer of the Green Party, over the former's proposal for a contingent of U.N. troops to safeguard Saddam Hussein's hold on power in Iraq. The plan was leaked to the German magazine Der Spiegel, apparently by someone in Schroeder's party.

It appears that Schroeder is too much of a weasel even for the Green Party to abide:

But the detail in the plan published yesterday . . . did not form part of Foreign Ministry calculations. German diplomats are well aware that an American plan for a robust UN inspection system was floated last year and dropped, having drawn little international enthusiasm. A European reworking of that plan, drawn up without the consultation of the United States, would be seen only as an affront by Washington. . . .

Herr Fischer has now been snubbed at least three times by the Chancellor. He was not warned in advance when Herr Schröder started to mobilise voter support during the general election campaign by warning against a US-led war. He was also wrong-footed when the Chancellor announced that Germany would never accept a UN resolution "legitimising a war" against Iraq. Herr Schröder has also mocked and publicly called to order one of Herr Fischer's key diplomats, the German envoy to the UN.

In another setback for Schroeder and his fellow weasels, the AFX wire service reports from Dubai that Iraq's foreign minister, in an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper, "ruled out the deployment on Iraqi soil of any UN peacekeepers." It seems the Germans are even more intent on keeping Saddam in power than Saddam himself is.

Yesterday we raised the possibility that French and German leaders may be worried that if America liberates Iraq, it will find evidence that those nations have violated U.N. sanctions against Iraq. An essay in the Asia Times Online claims that "expurgated portions of Iraq's December 7 report to the UN Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs"--and that this was true "both prior to and after the 1991 Gulf War."

We know from the account of Iraq's erstwhile bomb maker, Khidhir Hamza, that France and Germany have long supplied Iraq with weapons (and at scandalously high prices), but if they continued to do so after the impositions of sanctions, their actions were not merely venal but criminal.

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
25+ posts
25+ posts
Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
This could explain Germany's bahavior: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EB05Ak02.html

A POLEMIC
Germany's leading role in arming Iraq
By Marc Erikson

Expurgated portions of Iraq's December 7 report to the UN Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. What's galling is that German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and his minions have long known the facts, German intelligence services know them and have loads of information on what Saddam Hussein is hiding, and Schroeder nonetheless plays holier than thou to an easily manipulated, pacifist-inclined domestic audience.

If it's not the height of hypocrisy and opportunism, Schroeder's preemptive "no war. period" stance on Iraq and insistence on a "German Way" (Deutscher Weg) certainly come close. German Way? Haven't we heard that sort of talk before sometime, somewhere? But leave that be. It falls in the same category as Schroeder's former justice minister's comparison of US President George W Bush to Adolf Hitler in last summer's election campaign. Not only Schroeder and that unfortunate lady, but politicians elsewhere are of limited mental accountability when desperate about winning an election, and suffer lapses of speech and memory.

In 1991, Iraq fired dozens of Scud missiles at Israel and threatened to arm the missiles with poison-gas and biological warheads. Most of the contents of those warheads were made in Germany or made with the aid of German engineers and technology. In light of German history, can Herr Schroeder countenance the possibility of a future poison gas attack on Israel (or anyone else) facilitated by German know-how? Schroeder may not want to go to war. So be it. But he should regard it as his most solemn obligation to do his absolute damnedest to make sure that in the future "good Germans" don't once again stand there and say: "We didn't know."

Friedbert Pflueger, foreign policy spokesman of the main opposition Christian Democratic parties and an embittered critic of Schroeder's and Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer's Iraq policy, last Thursday accused the red-green coalition government of deliberately keeping the German and world public uninformed of BND (German foreign intelligence service) evidence and assessments on the continued existence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). "If we trust our [intelligence] services, and I do, then we know that there exist weapons of mass destruction in Iraq," said Pflueger, and referred to a November 13, 2002, BND briefing of members of parliament's foreign affairs committee in which relevant information was disclosed. As a member of parliament, added Pflueger, he was bound by his secrecy oath not to pass on such information, but challenged Schroeder to make it public forthwith. This was necessary, he said, "so that Herr Schroeder cannot continue to spread the impression that the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is a figment of George W Bush's imagination". He said further that he would dearly like to know exactly how many different types of smallpox virus were in Iraq's possession as - during a November 13 budget committee meeting - Health Minister Ulla Schmidt had motivated her request for a several million euro allocation for the purchase of smallpox vaccine with reference to such Iraqi stocks. Well, Gerhard, why's your minister worried? Or do vaccine purchases fall into the category of economic stimulus for the pharmaceutical industry?

The reason the BND is well-informed of Iraqi WMD programs - nuclear, biological and chemical - is straightforward: since the early 1980s, it has monitored German exports of dual-use nuclear technologies, precursor chemicals for poison-gas weapons, and "pharmaceutical" products and equipment for biological weapons manufacture to the Middle East. Indeed, there are strong suspicions that it was a silent partner in a Hamburg front company, Water Engineering Trading or WET, which covered for and facilitated such exports. Chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix said in his January 27 report that tons of Iraqi chemical and biological agents and precursors were unaccounted for. Over the years, well over half of the precursor materials and a majority of the tools and know-how for their conversion into weapons were sold to Iraq by German firms - both prior to and after the 1991 Gulf War. The BND has the details.

In the summer of 1994, the BND conducted a major study to estimate the magnitude of the - as at that time - still undeclared and concealed Iraqi WMD arsenal, relying on sales records in its possession of post-Gulf War German, Austrian, and Swiss exports of technologies, sub-systems and strategic materials to Iraq. It concluded that these exports pointed to several specific weapons programs, ranging from ballistic missile upgrades to poison gas manufacture, which Iraq had not declared and UN inspectors were unaware of and hence, not surprisingly, had failed to discover. While the magnitude of the current (1994) Iraqi weapons program "is difficult to assess", said the BND, there is no doubt that "some of the material and equipment" has eluded discovery and certain projects "are being revived and run clandestinely".

In February 2001, the BND compiled a further report and intelligence chief August Hanning told Spiegel magazine that, "Since the end of the UN inspections [December 1998], we have determined a jump in procurement efforts by Iraq," adding that Saddam was rebuilding destroyed weapons facilities "partly based on the German industrial standard".

According to the report:

Iraq has resumed its nuclear program and may be capable of producing an atomic bomb in three years;

Iraq is developing its Al Samoud and Ababil 100/Al Fatah short-range rockets, which can deliver a 300kg payload 150km. Medium-range rockets capable of carrying a warhead 3,000km could be built by 2005 - far enough to reach Europe;

Iraq is capable of manufacturing solid rocket fuel;

A Delhi-based company, blacklisted by the German government because of its alleged role in weapons proliferation, has acted as a buyer on Iraq's behalf. Deliveries have been made via Malaysia and Dubai. Indian companies have copied German machine tools down to the smallest detail and such equipment has been installed in numerous chemicals projects. [Note that such Indian cooperation with Iraq is something of a tradition: during the Iran-Iraq war India delivered precursors for warfare agents to Iraq - and later was found to have delivered quantities of the same materials to Iran. Baghdad's middleman at the time, an Iraqi with a German passport, founded a company in Singapore expressly for this purpose.]

Since the departure of the UN inspectors, the number of Iraqi sites involved in chemicals production has increased from 20 to 80. Of that total, a quarter could be involved in weapons production.

The BND's warnings didn't stop with that report. In April 2001, Hanning told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper that Iraq was developing a new class of chemical weapons, reiterated his alert on Iraq's missile and nuclear programs, and said that several German companies had continued to deliver to Baghdad components needed for the production of poison gas. In March 2002, he told the New Yorker magazine that, "It is our estimate that Iraq will have an atomic bomb in three years." The German opposition parties' demand that the government make public what it knows is thus no irresponsible, idle, politically inspired chatter as the ruling Social Democrats and Greens charge. The irresponsible chatter and politicking is Herr Schroeder's.

Houston, Texas, attorney Gary Pitts announced late last December that his firm, Pitts and Associates, would soon launch a class action suit on behalf of more than 3,000 sick Gulf War veterans against dozens of European companies accused of helping arm Iraq with weapons of mass destruction. Pitts said he had received a list of 56 international suppliers of equipment and raw materials necessary to make sarin, VX, mustard gas and other chemical agents from the Iraqi government. The list, brought back from Iraq by former weapons inspector Scott Ritter last September, proves identical to one included in a 1998 Iraqi chemical weapons declaration to the UN, resubmitted unchanged on December 7 and withheld from publication by the inspectors - along with other items - for reasons of "sensitivity". Withheld as well is a list of Iraqi nuclear technology suppliers originally contained in a 1996 declaration and also resubmitted on December 7. That nuclear weapons production details on uranium enrichment, detonation, implosion testing and warhead construction contained in Iraq's declarations should be withheld from all but the five permanent UN Security Council members may have some justification. That lists of suppliers for nuclear, chemical and biological weapons components are being withheld makes sense only if the UN inspectors want to save supplier countries and firms from embarrassment - precisely the embarrassment they should be exposed to to forestall future deliveries.

The list in Iraq's 1998/current chemical weapons declaration contains 31 "major suppliers", 14 from Germany. The 1996/current nuclear suppliers list has 62 company names on it, 33 from Germany. As Iraq claims that since 1991 it has not engaged in WMD production, the lists name no post-Gulf War suppliers. Call it old news. So much the sillier that the UN refuses to make them public. But since the BND claims that deliveries did not stop at the end of the Gulf War as well as simply as a matter of record of German complicity in arming Iraq, the issue remains an urgent current concern.

Leading the honor roll of chemical agents and production equipment suppliers (in this case nerve gas precursors and manufacturing) to Iraq is the German firm Preussag, now a subsidiary of Europe's largest travel agent and tour operator TUI - happy holidays! And Preussag has long been a firm dear to Schroeder's heart. In early 1998, when Schroeder was running for re-election as prime minister of the state of Lower Saxony which he had governed for eight years, he had the state buy 51 percent of Preussag's troubled steel division to the tune of US$500 million, claiming that 12,000 jobs were at stake. It was a characteristic Schroeder move: he knew that the Social Democrats would appoint him chancellor's candidate if he won in Lower Saxony. Win he did - first in Hannover, later in 1998 at the federal level to become chancellor. What did he know about the Preussag conglomerate's Iraq poison gas dealings? Don't ask.

Included on the Iraqi suppliers' lists are other world-renowned (eg, Hoechst, Daimler-Benz, Siemens, Kloeckner, Carl Zeiss, Schott Glas, etc) and smaller German firms. Notable are Karl Kolb/Pilot Plant and WTB (Walter Thosti Boswau) who built and equipped Iraq's two major "pesticide and detergent" plants which, said a WTB employee, produce "detergents to exterminate two-legged flies" (Spiegel 4/1989, p 24). The WTB undertaking was supported by a credit guarantee for several hundred million German marks by Hermes, a German government export and credit insurer. Noteworthy also is Rhein-Bayern, which supplied Iraq with eight mobile toxicological labs housed in sand-colored, camouflage-painted Magirus trucks.

Chemical agents? Biological agents? Machine tools and parts and materials for uranium enrichment and missile production? You name them and the Germans delivered them - and not only that: they supplied the plants and know-how for Iraq to make its own "pesticides" ("to protect the date harvest"), "vaccines" ("to eradicate smallpox and other contagious diseases"), and "x-ray machines".

Karl Kolb told investigative reporters following up the Pitts and Associates law suit that it has done business with Iraq for 35 years, but had no connection to its weapons programs. Preussag claimed that accusations it had supplied precursor chemicals for Iraqi weapons were untrue. Schott Glas said it was "a manufacturer of glass and glass components, not of weapons".

If Herr Schroeder had his way, one assumes, then that's where things would end. Happily, with some nasty American trial lawyers on the case, that's unlikely. And happily, though he tried once more in advance of last Sunday's state elections in Lower Saxony and Hesse to rally Germans to his party's cause with anti-Iraq war rhetoric, Schroeder was dealt a humiliating defeat in both states. He should have bought re-privatized Preussag once again. Even the most gullible of German voters saw through his miserable Iraq-war ploy this time around, blamed him for over 10 percent unemployment, and threw his candidates and party into the trash bin.

(©2003 Asia Times Online Co, Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact content@atimes.com for information on our sales and syndication policies.)

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367
Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367
Likes: 14
This sounds like those nutters who think Bush is a friend of OBL, but less convincing:

quote:

...The rumour that Bush family had in any way profited by its long involvement with the bin Laden family was - what else? - simply partisan bad taste.

But Bush Jr's involvement goes back at least to 1979 when his first failed attempt to become a player in the big Texas oil league brought him together with one James Bath of Houston, a family friend, who have Bush Jr. $50,000 for a 5 per cent stake in Bush's firm Arbusto Energy. At this time, according to Wayne Madsen ('In These Times' - Institute for Public Affairs No. 25), Bath was 'the sole US business representative for Salem bin Laden, head of the family and a brother (one of 17) to Osama bin Laden... In a statement issued shortly after the 11 September attacks, the White House vehemently denied the connection, insisting that Bath invested his own money, not Salem bin Laden's, in Arbusto. In conflicting statements, Bush at first denied ever knowing Bath, then acknowledged his stake in Arbusto and that he was aware Bath represented Saudi interests ... after several reincarnations, Arbusto emerged in 1986 as Harken Energy Corporation.'

Behind the Junior Bush is the senior Bush, gainfully employed by the Carlyle Group which has ownership in at least 164 companies worldwide, inspiring admiration in that staunch friend to the wealthy, the Wall Street Journal, which noted, as early as 27 September 2001, 'If the US boosts defence spending in its quest to stop Osama bin Laden's alleged terrorist activities, there may be one unexpected beneficiary: bin Laden's family ... is an investor in a fund established by Carlyle Group, a well-connected Washington merchant bank specialising in buyouts of defence and aerospace companies ... Osama is one of more than 50 children of Mohammed bin Laden, who built the family's $5 billion business.'


[mock horror]Oh my God! Bush is behind this! [/mock horror]

In this game, anyone can come up with enough dirt on anyone else to make them seem partisan one way of the other. From the stuff above (Gore Vidal's article in the Observer from here:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0210/S00205.htm - and there is a lot more of it) it looks like Bush and OBL are best buddies. The article you quoted above makes it look like the Germans are Saddam's best buddies. Who do you believe?

What I do know is that the German people are adamantly against a war in Iraq because of a fear of high casualties and because they see it as oil motivated: Germans know a lot about the human cost of war having started enough of the damn things, and I'd rather have them against a war that deciding to adopt it as their foreign policy again.

With high public opinion polls against war, why should the German government ignore the will of its people? No amount of spin can change that fundamental fact.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,846
Likes: 1
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,846
Likes: 1
i dont think it should be ignored that germany officials have also gone on public record saying that a war on iraq is perhaps the only thing that could destroy their just-now rising economy.

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
25+ posts
25+ posts
Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
Also, Turkey is offering assistance to the US. Keep in mind, Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, so this just proves that this is not a war against Islam. France and Germany refuse to help Turkey if it is attacked for helping us. Aren't all four countries (France, Germany, Turkey, and the US) all members of NATO? So, if one of us is attacked, are the other required to aid?

#238688 2003-02-14 12:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367
Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367
Likes: 14
quote:
Originally posted by Harpy:
Also, Turkey is offering assistance to the US. Keep in mind, Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, so this just proves that this is not a war against Islam.

A war against Iraq is deeply unpopular in Turkey. This is not only because its perceived as assiting Christians attack Muslims, but because economic sanctions against Iraq from 10 years ago knocked the shit out of the Turkish economy and its still reeling.

The Turkish government is willing to help, in a very low key manner.

quote:

France and Germany refuse to help Turkey if it is attacked for helping us. Aren't all four countries (France, Germany, Turkey, and the US) all members of NATO? So, if one of us is attacked, are the other required to aid?

As I understand it (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) its defence planning which is being vetoed by Belgium, Germany and France. They are saying that NATO anti-missile defences should not yet be deployed in Turkey. I think they're holding out for Blix's report today.

They're not saying that Turkey should not be defended if attacked.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,846
Likes: 1
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,846
Likes: 1
its a flip flopping ordeal, really (which is rather annoying, and speaks volumes about the actual countries flip-flopping).

originally, france, belgium, and germany (or "fbg", as the kids call'em) were all very against the defense of turkey, as they felt defending would put a complete end to talks (or non-war resolutions).

duh.

their opinions as of yesterday were that they dont feel they should be defending turkey yet.

since that time, belgium has, apparently, made a complete turn around and has now offered at least some form of support -- which will grow.

the leader of france (whose name i embarassingly cant think of right now, but im trying to watch CSI) spoke on the phone with the higher ups in turkey today, saying that their not going to make a statement yet, but they'll definitely offer support and will make it apparent after blix speaks

germany, having heard this, got all pissed off cuz france made that call without discussing things with germany first -- making germany look bad (or starting a rift between the two nations).

odds are, all of them will eventually support turkey (and, personally, i think all of them will eventually come down on saddam in some form). their actions right now just appear to be face-saving.... or something.

i really dont get it.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367
Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367
Likes: 14
I suspect the anxiety arises from not wanted to be seen to prematurely commit any sort of military strength relating even remotely to Iraq.

Also, stop-outs are rewarded. Britain and Australia are comitting troops without hesitation. If you hesitate (like Russia), you get incentives to come onside. All of the Sec Council members are getting huge preferential treatment at the moment by the US - freedom fighters acknowledged as terrorist groups, debt forgiveness, offers of financial support.....

It pays to be a hesitator.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,846
Likes: 1
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,846
Likes: 1
which is even more incriminating to such resisting countries.

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
rex Offline
Who will I break next?
15000+ posts
Who will I break next?
15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Prometheus, saving us from differing opinions since 2011!


November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0