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Bush Eyes Legal Status for Alien WorkersQuote:
A plan being proposed by President Bush (news - web sites) would give legal status to foreign workers, including millions already toiling in America's underground economy, removing the fear of deportation but not putting them on a fast track toward permanent U.S. residency.
Tricky tricky move. Will the theoretical benefit of the "latino vote" offset the negative backlash this is sure to create among conservatives and some of the more um.."nativist" elements out there.
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Ask yourself "who benefits the most?" and therein is the truth I suspect. Instead of adopting anything remotely resembling a sane immigration policy and standards the Govt wants to give up..why don't they give up the drug war..that's seems just as silly at this point?
I suppose this really is about big business. I don't suspect doing the "right" thing has anything to do with it.
This is NAFTA gone insane. We need to prevent people from illegal activity..it is not OK to cross our borders illegally....it is a crime. we should not coddle criminals.
Yes, these are people with families and many are citizens by default because of their children.The process should be easier....the govt is basically saying cheap labor/wages is good and for the country and non-citizens.
this is shady. I see too many obvious reasons for doing it. None of them are sane and none of them make any sense.
I know we need people to come into this country to prop up the tax paying base to pay for our older population and govt programs... I just don't think this is what this move is about.
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I'm totally against this. I thought one of the benefits of having a Republican in office would be that they'd have a tough stance on immigration. Talk about flip-flopping on the issues! I'm sure a lot of people in the mid-west feel the same way I do.
FREE SCOTT PETERSON!
"Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
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As a restaurant owner I can tell you this is an absolute great move........without immigrants none of you would ever be able to go out to eat.....trust me. Immigrants take up shitty jobs that Americans don't even want........this is the right thing to do. Most immigrants I know are more American and Patriotic than most citizens........certainly more than the 9 clowns running for the Dem Nomination. Bush is a great great man.
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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Maybe you should clarify. Do you mean LEGAL immigrants or ILLEGAL ones?
I want to know if you've broken the law and hired illegal aliens. If it isn't asking too much, did they earn at least the minimum wage?
What i'm getting at is that perhaps this amnesty, yes amnesty, wouldn't have happened if business owners wouldn't have flouted the law just as openly as the illegal immigrants themselves do. Remember, without waiting, available and plentiful low wage jobs, there would be no illegal influx.
Which is why i'm going to go out and say this isn't a REP or DEM issue. If it was, then Pete Wilson and a host of other Republican California Governors and Presidents would have done something about the open borders a long time ago. This is an economic problem. America loves low wage menial workers. In fact they NEED low wage menial workers. It's why you aern't paying 3X as much for your lettuce. It's only an issue during election years when politicians who know they have absolutely no intention of stopping illegal immigration, try to use immigrants as a wedge issue to incite white voters. As was the case in California during Prop 187.
I'm against illegal immigration myself in theory BUT when these wedge issues turn up, they are presented in such a mean spirited way that it leaves no other conclusion than to see that there is no distinction being made in most peoples minds to illegal immigrants and to latinos who may in fact be legal residents, may actually be US citizens, or have been here for centuries, long before the white man arrived. It usually just degenerates to an " i hate the brown man" referendum.
So i don't know what to think of Bush's proposal actually. It's certainly realistic but it's also rewarding flouting the law. It's adressing economic reality but it's also depressing wages for everyone else. It's geared to appeal to latino voters but it's sure to alienate white ones. As I said, tricky.
Last edited by whomod; 2004-01-13 9:55 AM.
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We already are 15000+ posts
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Quote:
whomod said:
Maybe you should clarify. Do you mean LEGAL immigrants or ILLEGAL ones?
I want to know if you've broken the law and hired illegal aliens. If it isn't asking too much, did they earn at least the minimum wage?
What i'm getting at is that perhaps this amnesty, yes amnesty, wouldn't have happened if business owners wouldn't have flouted the law just as openly as the illegal immigrants themselves do. Remember, without waiting, available and plentiful low wage jobs, there would be no illegal influx.
Which is why i'm going to go out and say this isn't a REP or DEM issue. If it was, then Pete Wilson and a host of other Republican California Governors and Presidents would have done something about the open borders a long time ago. This is an economic problem. America loves low wage menial workers. In fact they NEED low wage menial workers. It's why you aern't paying 3X as much for your lettuce. It's only during election years that politicians who know they have absolutely no intention of stopping illegal immigration try to use immigrants as a wedge issue to incite white voters. As was the case in California during Prop 187.
I'm against illegal immigration myself in theory BUT when these wedge issues turn up, they are presented in such a mean spirited way that it leaves no other conclusion than to see that there is no distinction being made in most peoples minds to illegal immigrants and to latinos who may be legal, US citizens or have been here for centuries even before the white man. It usually degenerates to a " i hate the brown man" referendum.
So i don't know what to think of Bush's proposal actually. It's certainly realistic but it's also rewarding flouting the law. It's adressing economic reality but it's also depressing wages for everyone else. It's geared to appeal to latino voters but it's sure to alienate white ones. As I said, tricky.
Heh. I mean Legal and Illegal......and no I haven't broken the law and everyone that works for us makes a very good living. However, with that said.......it's not very hard to purchase phony documents.....so whether I or any restaurant owner has been given fake documents well I don't know.......but what I do know is that everyone that works for us is a solid tax-paying worker. You're right this isn't a Republican or Democratic question........it is the right thing to do. If someone wants to work and pay taxes and be a good citizen....we should let them.
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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I'm against this move.
If you want to be a US citizen, then do it by the book. We'll accept you. You just have to go through the motions before we'll say "A-ok". That's not too much to ask, is it?
As far as immigrant workers taking the menial, low-paying jobs excuse, that's a load. Maybe Americans don't like those jobs; but if they're unemployeed and facing a life on the streets, then they better learn to love 'em. If I had to face losing everything I own because I can't find a high paying job with little work over the strawberry picking offer I've been given, my ass would be out in the fields picking strawberries.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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It's Alien Nation all over again.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
I'm against this move.
If you want to be a US citizen, then do it by the book. We'll accept you. You just have to go through the motions before we'll say "A-ok". That's not too much to ask, is it?
As far as immigrant workers taking the menial, low-paying jobs excuse, that's a load. Maybe Americans don't like those jobs; but if they're unemployeed and facing a life on the streets, then they better learn to love 'em. If I had to face losing everything I own because I can't find a high paying job with little work over the strawberry picking offer I've been given, my ass would be out in the fields picking strawberries.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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Quote:
Snapman said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
I'm against this move.
If you want to be a US citizen, then do it by the book. We'll accept you. You just have to go through the motions before we'll say "A-ok". That's not too much to ask, is it?
As far as immigrant workers taking the menial, low-paying jobs excuse, that's a load. Maybe Americans don't like those jobs; but if they're unemployeed and facing a life on the streets, then they better learn to love 'em. If I had to face losing everything I own because I can't find a high paying job with little work over the strawberry picking offer I've been given, my ass would be out in the fields picking strawberries.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I think this guy makes a good point.
Quote:
President Bush says that immigrants will take jobs that most Americans won't take and that's why he is changing immigration policy. That simply isn't true. Many Americans have no problem picking vegetables, serving others or sewing clothes. Once again he needs to be more honest and stop disparaging the American worker.
Immigrants will take a low wage that most Americans won't take, and that's why Bush is changing immigration policy.
Clay J. Claiborne
Los Angeles
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Peacock Teaser 3000+ posts
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Peacock Teaser 3000+ posts
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
I'm against this move.
If you want to be a US citizen, then do it by the book. We'll accept you. You just have to go through the motions before we'll say "A-ok". That's not too much to ask, is it?
As far as immigrant workers taking the menial, low-paying jobs excuse, that's a load. Maybe Americans don't like those jobs; but if they're unemployeed and facing a life on the streets, then they better learn to love 'em. If I had to face losing everything I own because I can't find a high paying job with little work over the strawberry picking offer I've been given, my ass would be out in the fields picking strawberries.
Bingo.
As far as immigrants being patriots, traditionally the ones who work their ass off to get in legally are great citizens. But when a pregnant womans goes into labor on the Texas border just to qualify for welfare, problems are going to emerge.
"You're either lying or stupid."
"I'm stupid! I'm stupid!"
Megatron and Starscream
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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 It's amazing that when the President makes a move that looks like it's engineered to go after votes, people jump all over it, while almost everything many of the Dems do can be explained as politicking to capture the votes of a certain segment. Although I suspect that the unions - often staunch Democrats - will be quite vehemently opposed to this, it might allow Bush to one-up the Democrats... who seem to have taken a break from trying to appease some of their core votes. 'Moderates need not apply.' Someone help Dean remove that bullet from his foot. 
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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I agree with the sentiment that it's not a case of having jobs that Americans won't work. We just want a job that at least pays the bills. If I work 8 or more hours a day I should be fairly paid for it. It's also amazing how these jobs only become unwanted only when illegal imigrants are availlable. Also this increases taxes on a community when the employer isn't paying a living wage & these people being used for cheap labor use resources & services to supplement the crappy income.
Fair play!
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One analogy that I haven't heard about this, which I believe is valid, is that giving amnesty to illegal immigrants is like giving amnesty to thieves or killers. These people are doing something illegally; they shouldn't be excused for that.
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I agree with the sentiment that it's not a case of having jobs that Americans won't work. We just want a job that at least pays the bills. If I work 8 or more hours a day I should be fairly paid for it. It's also amazing how these jobs only become unwanted only when illegal imigrants are availlable. Also this increases taxes on a community when the employer isn't paying a living wage & these people being used for cheap labor use resources & services to supplement the crappy income.
You aint just whistling dixie! It also strains communities, schools, public utilities and the like. I grew up in Southeast L.A. which over the years saw an incredible influx of immigrants (most notably during the mid 80's). These communities are a disaster. Without exaggerating, almost every-single- two bedroom house with a garage has at least 2 families, sometimes 3 living there usually a family per bedroom, another in the illegally converted garage. So the streets are almost undrivable, congestion on the freeways around these communities is also impossible. Most of those immigrants have at least 4 to 6 cars per household and driveways that only accomodate about 2 cars. So the streets are overcrowded with their parked cars, almost without fail large vans and trucks, on streets designed for small cars. A nightmare. I won't even get into the gang problem... In other words, once quiet bedroom communities in the suburbs of L.A. are now for lack of a better word, Slums.
Now as for the policy, as i'm undesranding it, there's going to be a finite number of these 'guest worker" cards. So the program is asking all these illegal immigrants to expose themselves with no guarantee that they'll even receive a card. And if the are lucky enough to receive a card, they are only guaranteed permission to work in the U.S. for 3 years. After that they may be deported?? So what's the incentive for them to renounce their illegal status quo anyway?? The more on looks at this program the less impressive it becomes, for both immigrants and the latino constituency it's supposed to impress.
Last edited by whomod; 2004-01-13 9:54 AM.
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Quote:
Ohio Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich called the Bush approach "indentured servitude."
"You know, the Statue of Liberty, the poem at the base didn't say, 'Give me your tired, your poor, and we will fingerprint them, we will take their picture and then we will deport them after we're finished getting their work,' " he said.
Now, i'm going to float this angle here as I was trying to debate this at another MB but the topic kept going back to peoples hatred of illegals.
Quote:
Quote:
If we control the immigration, maybe Mexicans will be forced to take steps to change their own government and to finally enter the twenty first century and they can say !Viva la Independencia de los Estados Unidos!
Now this is something I agree with IN THEORY. The reality though is if you FORCE upheaveal in Mexico, guess what? The peasants revolting are going to most likely respond to the kind of ..."socialist" government that would be perceived as adressing their needs. In other words, Washington would have Castro and whoever would rise up in Mexico to work for the working class and against the corrupt social elite and their "Yanqui" cronies.
No, I think amnesty and a porous border would be preferential to this Administration (or any other that preceeded this one) than anything that may threaten their free trade deals and may bring about a peoples revolution at their southern border.
So the question is, is illegal immigration the price America pays to prevent the kind of revolutionary 'socialist' Venezuela style government rising up on our southern border that may potentially be at odds with the U.S. and U.S. business interests? Is a corrupt, incompetent ally with a peasant population, a population which increasingly ends up in our country, the lesser evil?
Plus the added benefit of cheap labour of course...
Last edited by whomod; 2004-01-14 12:24 AM.
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Let me add my 2 cent worth. When I was growing up, there weren't very many immigrants in my part of the country. Yet, there didn't seem to be any problem finding Americans to do crappy jobs. In fact I DID some crappy jobs for awhile in my youth. Of course, they DID have to pay me minimum wage, and there was a limit to how much abuse I'd take, since I could just find another crappy job. There are reasons for businessmen to prefer illegals, but are they really GOOD reasons (to anyone but them)?
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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How many of you can say you did not support the TV show Alf? thats what I thought.
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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As canidate Kucinich pointed out, this immigration plan is nothing new. In the past it was called indentured servitude. Webster's Dictionary describes an indentured servant as
"a person who binds himself by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment."
The president's plan legalizes this for American corporations, and the government will act as the enforcer. What's to follow that — slavery, where employers will provide room and board for the person in return for work? The way people are trying to reason, justify and praise this new plan makes me wonder if anyone, especially the media, has ever opened the dictionary or a history book.
By the by, how many people are going to report to an office and sign up for a program that gives them a shot at a job no citizen wants, and has the added bonus of getting them deported in three years?
There's another simple economic fact that renders Bush's immigration policy ineffective. If currently undocumented workers are provided work visas (certainly a good idea in principle), they will be subject to minimum-wage laws and certain benefits, as all legal workers are. Minimum wage, however, is far higher than what undocumented workers are making now. So work crews in the Imperial Valley, if suddenly made legal, will become much more expensive for their employers.
In response, employers will hire new undocumented, and thus cheaper, workers, if not kept from doing otherwise by law enforcement. So the only way to really curb mass immigration is to crack down on businesses that hire undocumented workers. And is this policy going to be the one to do this cracking down? Not likely.
Wasn't this all supposed to not be happening? After the 1986 Amnesty Act, the borders should have been tightened so we wouldn't be here in 2004 with the only reasonable recourse is to give everyone already here Amnesty and then tighten our borders.
Makes you wonder what is in store down the road 17 years from now.....
Last edited by whomod; 2004-01-19 9:45 AM.
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