|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
I'll challenge the "kept the industry alive for the last 40 years" remark.
Most of those readers have spent the last 17 years whinning about the lack of monkeys in capes and girls from Krypton to the point of refusing to buy them unless they are dumbed down so their dogs can read them.
You really don't have a clue, do you? Yes, some left when they felt that comics no longer offered them the escapism that they had in the past. But no one left because of a lack of super monkeys and such. Your inability to understand that different people can get different things from comics shows how mentally inept you are.
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Most of the credit for keeping the biz alive for the last 10 years goes to continuity fans and collectors, not whinners...
Some might bunch the continuity fans in with the whiners. I remember you getting your panties in a bunch because Birthright didn't have Jor-El push the button to send Kal to Earth. If that isn't being a nitpicky whiner, I don't know what is. They are also the people who have made it next to impossible for new fans to pick up books. Without new readers, comics will fade out.
And you can't be serious saying that collectors have kept the industry alive! They almost finished it off in the 90's. The real fans were driven out because of the publishers' decisions to market to the collectors who jumped the shark when they realized that they weren't going to make the money they thought they were. Collectors gave the industry a boost for a few years; then caused the whole thing to go into a slump that they have yet to crawl out of. Collectors almost buried comics. Please get your facts straight when you try to rebut someone's arguement.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
|
|
living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
And remember that there's one N in whine, whiners, and whining.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Let's look at the facts:
-MOTA judges stories without reading them (Moore's Supreme)
-MOTA judges stories by their lenght ("all self-contained eight page stories suck")
-MOTA buys three (until recently four) Superman comics he does not enjoy in the least
-MOTA thinks Mark "Continuity" Waid is a continuity hater
-MOTA thinks Waid along with several other writers he can't name are part of an anti-continuity conspiracy, driven by the writer's ego and desire to take over the word
-MOTA thinks of himself as the only real reader in this thread, yet he's proven that he's unable to read by saying things like "You hate Man of Steel", "You love Birthright", "You love Super-Pets", etc., when in fact me and thedoctor have stated that we don't
-MOTA thinks that EVERYONE who disagrees in with him in any topic is a Silver Age fan
-MOTA's harassment of comic book writers (of all people, he harasses comic book writers... good thing he doesn't leave the house or he'd stalk them too) is so over the top that he gets noticed by the writers themselves, and even comics news sites, all of whom feel sorry for him
-MOTA must get three Superman comics every month
-MOTA is such a selfish fucker that he wouldn't share his precious three titles so everyone gets their version of Superman
-MOTA would rather get three comics he hates in one continuity than one comic he loves and two in other continuities
-MOTA hates old people clinging to their childhood and expecting it to return yet he's an old man who does exactly that
-MOTA thinks it's wrong that KK calls him "Continuity Taliban", yet he refers to him as "KKK", admitedly lowering himself
-MOTA's name for Birthright is STILLBORN
-MOTA expects every Superman fan, including those who share his opinions, to be able to buy three, four or five Superman comics each month to be able to understand the story
-MOTA steals jokes and arguments and uses them randomly though they only apply to him ("a bunch of wild monkeys could write better than...", "why can't you let others get their version too?")
-MOTA likes Rob Lefield
-MOTA thinks Man of Steel should be the Superman origin "forever and ever" (his words). The Golden Age had a Superman, the Silver Age had another Superman with some elements of the previous one, the Modern Age had another Superman with some elements of the two previous ones, and a new age should have a different Superman with some elements of the three previous ones. For some reason MOTA can't understand this is how it goes and expects the Superman he read as a kid to be the only one forever.
-MOTA admits he's unable to enjoy a good story if it contradicts continuity, even if it's the greatest story ever written
I'm sure there are lot more of those, but I can't think of any right now. When I make a list I'm happy with, I'll go around several comic MBs where MOTA posts and spread the word.
MOTA, most people here are Modern Age fans. Why do you think we fight with you and not KK, who defends the Silver Age and Birthright? Do you even think about that? Do you think about anything?
Last edited by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk; 2004-01-23 6:32 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1 |
Maybe if we posted our points in four different threads simultaneously, he would understand it.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Or if we charged for them. I bet adding man-boobs would attract his attention.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
I added:
-MOTA admits he's unable to enjoy a good story if it contradicts continuity, even if it's the greatest story ever written
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 785
Assassinist 500+ posts
|
|
Assassinist 500+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 785 |
IMO, Supes is all things to all people. Everybody sees him differently. He's been around that long. DC should keep his titles separate from one another and market them based on those different views. IMO, Superman should be devoted to the Byrne fans, Adventures the SA fans, and Action the GA fans. Superman should be able to reach all his fans as well as the masses like the true American icon that he is.
"Life ain't nothin' but bitches and money" - Ice Cube
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
If that ever happened, I think there should be a new book about a new version of Superman.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 785
Assassinist 500+ posts
|
|
Assassinist 500+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 785 |
Actually, that's not a bad idea Mxy. Maybe that new title could be an amalgamation of all of the eras to help introduce "everything Superman" to new readers.
"Life ain't nothin' but bitches and money" - Ice Cube
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I added:
-MOTA admits he's unable to enjoy a good story if it contradicts continuity, even if it's the greatest story ever written
If the story's set in continuity then it should respect.
Only a moron wouldn't understand that.
Are you one or can you grap that?
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1 |
And even a moron can spell grasp correctly.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
you are familiar with this board's crappy edit funtion, right?
Oh, apparently they fixed that.
I didn't know.
Last edited by ManofTheAtom; 2004-01-23 8:42 PM.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I added:
-MOTA admits he's unable to enjoy a good story if it contradicts continuity, even if it's the greatest story ever written
If the story's set in continuity then it should respect.
Only a moron wouldn't understand that.
Are you one or can you grap that?
I can understand that. I can understand that perfectly. I could name you dozens of stories I've enjoyed because of their use of continuity.
You're moron for being unable to understand that that's not the only option and for thinking that I don't understand something simply because I think the possibility of not using it should exist. You're the one that imposes stupid limits on yourself. I like what you like, and more. You like what you like and nothing else. This is a fictional fucking universe, let's sit back and relax instead of worrying about things that in the end don't matter at all. You'd get a fucking heart attack if you read a comic that fucked up continuity forever. How fucked up is that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
No, I don't have a heart attack when I read a story that doesn't use continuity.
It does bother me however when stories that ignore continuity and change it for NO fucking reason are done just so some creators can stroke their ego.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Just because you don't get the reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377 |
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Because they're dicks that think that the 1960's should have never ended?
You clearly have a hard time understanding what I'm telling you, so I'm gonna try again:
It's not about MY vision, it's about C-O-N-S-I-S-T-A-N-C-Y in the stories.
The last five years haven't had that and splitting the books into three different realities won't fix it.
As I told you before, I don't have to stop buying three Superman comics a month, something I like to do, just so some 50 year old morons that haven't been able to let go of the super pets can have them back.
IF they want them back so badly they can ask DC to give Mark Waid a comic for them to read, I'm sure he'll have to problem writing down to that audience.
I for one prefer comics that actually tell interesting, challenging stories, not those writen to drooling morons that are easily impressed by a monkey in a cape.
But if that's what the morons want I have no problem with DC giving it to them, just NOT on the three existing comics, there's no reason for that.
If there's an audience that wants that kind of writing then they should get it separate from what exist today.
That way everyone wins, both the drooling morons and the real readers.
<AHEM!>
What's wrong with drooling monkeys in a cape? There are some of us 50 year olds who find that erotic!
Seriously Manof theatomsizedbrainbutwiththemouthaslargeastheGrandCanyon I'm all for consistency whether it's spelled w/ capital letters and hyphens or not! And I'll be the first to agree that the Super-titles have been more miss than hit for way too long! I haven't even read a Super-comic in the last couple of months though they are sitting in invarious comic bags somewhere around the house. This new direction sounds intriguing and I think I'm going to like it when I finally get around to reading them...soon. In the meantime, kick back, take a chill pill, ManoftheatomsizedbrainbutwiththemouthaslargeastheGrandCanyon, and rest assured you'll never be able to properly thank me and my generation for keeping a medium alive for you to kick and scream about!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Just because you don't get the reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The only reason to alter a 18 year old origin is because Berganza's in charge, nothing more.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Uuuuh... That's the other discussion, MOTA. We were talking about the mandatory use of continuity in every single DCU comic.
Thank you for proving that you can't read.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
The only reason to alter a 18 year old origin is because Berganza's in charge, nothing more.
I suppouse Berganza was in charge in '85.
Last edited by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk; 2004-01-24 7:18 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
I have never said that every single DC comic has to follow continuity.
I said that when a comic says it takes place in continuity then it better fucking use it, not alter it on a whim, as Waid's doing in BR.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
Are you really this dense or just uninformed?
If the first then I doubt even God could help you, if the second then I'm sure I can.
In 86 Superman was broken, it needed to be fixed, they fixed him.
Today the character isn't broken, it just lacks direction.
Altering the origin won't fix what's wrong today, putting someone with vision on the titles will.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
I have never said that every single DC comic has to follow continuity.
I said that when a comic says it takes place in continuity then it better fucking use it, not alter it on a whim, as Waid's doing in BR.
When I said DCU I meant DC Universe. All the main titles, not just minis here and there.
So, Birthright has a sign that says "This comic follows continuity"? Or one that says "Approved by the Anal Continuity Council of America"? No, don't think so.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
It is broken. Jurgens and company couldn't make one single good story by the end of their run. DC got new writers, and they fucked up big time. Loeb, Immonen and DeMatteis are capable of doing great work, but they couldn't, just like Kesel, Stern and not even Ordway couldn't.
The only way to get Superman "back on track" would be ignoring the last your years. They could be wiped, yeah, but that would only be a temporary solution, just like wiping the last years of the multiverse would have been in 85. And it would be messy, incredibly messy. I mean, you're an anal retentive continuity lover, what would you do with all the crossovers from that period? Whatever gets done to fix those leftover problems ends up being lame, and, in the end, causing bigger problems (example: Hawkman).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
Erasing the past or changing it won't help.
Ignoring it and moving on will.
Retelling the origin doesn't help, it creates unnecessary problems.
BR should not be in continuity, but Berganza wants it to be because he thinks that that's gonna fix the last four years.
Last edited by ManofTheAtom; 2004-01-25 5:37 AM.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Erasing the past or changing it won't help.
Exactly what they said in 85.
Quote:
Ignoring it and moving on will.
Yes, because ignoring problems and moving on instead of solving them has always worked...
Quote:
Retelling the origin doesn't help, it creates unnecessary problems.
You could very well be a Silver Age fan talking about MoS.
Quote:
BR should not be in continuity, but Berganza wants it to be because he thinks that that's gonna fix the last four years.
Change BR for MoS and Berganza for whoever the editor was back in 86, and you're a Silver Age whiner instead of a Modern Age one. You've become what you despise.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
whoever the editor was back in 86
Dick Giordano, I seem to recall.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,326
1000+ posts
|
|
1000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,326 |
Quote:
MOTA, most people here are Modern Age fans. Why do you think we fight with you and not KK, who defends the Silver Age and Birthright? Do you even think about that? Do you think about anything?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to take a stab at why I'm not the one who's taking all the brickbats, as MOTA thinks I should:
1. I don't expect everyone to agree with me or share my exact opinions. Nor do I attack them for having a different opinion. I only go after those who DO try to dictate what people can and can't like and what is "proper" for everyone to read.
2. I respect ALL the different eras of Superman. I may not be a fan of the Modern Age version, but I know it has its place in the character's history, and there've been some stories that I've enjoyed very much. But if you want me to be honest, I think I like the Bronze Age Superman the best out of the comics incarnations. It had the fun of the Golden and Silver Ages without the silliness and excesses. But I'm not arrogant enought to think that only ONE era of Superman should hold precedence over all the others, whatever that era may be.
3. I think Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster DID know what they were doing with Superman. He was their creation, after all. Sure, their work was a constant case of creative flux, but they were trying to perfect their creation and figure out what worked and what didn't. Just because their Superman was radically different from Byrne's doesn't mean they weren't paying attention to their work. They simply handled their creation as they saw fit. Only a supreme egotist would claim that Byrne knew Superman better than his own creators (example: MOTA).
4. I've been arguing for an INTEGRATED Superman, one who's shaped and influenced by ALL of his incarnations. I haven't been arguing for one era to be revisited wholesale. I want a Superman who's the boiled-down essence of all his incarnations. That's why I loved the animated series and Trinity so much; they presented that integration that I think Superman needs. It's also why I was in favor of Birthright; it was an attempt at integration. Only an egotistical idiot would believe I was demanding a total rehash of the Silver Age. I want ALL of the incarnations of Superman to matter, and the Superman stuff I've liked best has provided that integration.
Would that cover it? Or am I missing something? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
I think he should have little antennas and pointy ears so he actually looks like an alien.
And retractable testicles, too.
|
|
|
|
|
