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Let'as call it a morals/ethics test...
No right or wrong answer, I just wanna see how people respond.
An alien race lands on the Earth. they are technologically advanced in ways we cannot imagine. they offer us a cure to all disease, and technology beyond our wildest dreams... if we allow them one baby to mutilate and torture. seems they love to torture and for the price of just one innocent baby we could have all of that good stuff. do we accept the deal?
Last edited by First National Bastard; 2004-01-29 3:44 PM.
First National Bastard
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Tough one!
I really don't have the answer for it, but it's a question of the greatest good for the greatest number. If there truly is such a thing.
I think I'd say no, on the grounds that it would be a compromise, next time we might have to make an even bigger compromise, a sacrifice we might not be able to live with
 Racks be to MisterJLA
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Um, your premise makes no sense. If they are that far ahead of us, they could just TAKE a baby (and/or any of the rest of) for torture, without offering us anything in return.
JJ
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It's one of those things that intelligent aliens do. A bit like the way they supposedly abduct people and leave crop circles.
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the real questions will be:
is the baby cute?
is the baby from a rich white family?
Bow ties are coool.
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not to be racist...we just don't need more poor and ugly babies.
Last edited by r3x29yz4a; 2004-01-30 2:16 AM.
Bow ties are coool.
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Even if the price was one old person on his/her death bed, my answer would still be no. No matter the good that could come of it, the sacrifice is too great. How could we be worthy of this gift if we don't value life to begin with?
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Yeah, but life is essentially worthless anyway. It's random. I mean, one egg vs. millions of sperm... Yeah, those odds are bad...
Life began as a genetic accident. Humanity evolved from primates. We're just a step above monkeys. And I'm betting no one would care if said aliens took a monkey to torture. In fact, we do it ourselves in the name of science. What the hell makes humanity so special? We have language? Thumbs? We divide ourselves into little groups, and fight other groups because we think our invisible person in the sky has a bigger dick than theirs?
Yeah, ain't humanity neat.
Give 'em the baby. It'll just grow up to be another person. And we damn well don't need any more of those on this planet.
Last edited by First National Bastard; 2004-01-30 4:33 AM.
First National Bastard
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Quote:
First National Bastard said:
Yeah, but life is essentially worthless anyway. It's random. I mean, one egg vs. millions of sperm... Yeah, those odds are bad...
Life began as a genetic accident. Humanity evolved from primates. We're just a step above monkeys. And I'm betting no one would care if said aliens took a monkey to torture. In fact, we do it ourselves in the name of science. What the hell makes humanity so special? We have language? Thumbs? We divide ourselves into little groups, and fight other groups because we think our invisible person in the sky has a bigger dick than theirs?
Yeah, ain't humanity neat.
Give 'em the baby. It'll just grow up to be another person. And we damn well don't need any more of those on this planet.
That's no excuse. We have higher reasoning skills. We are not animals, although there are people who make us think otherwise with their actions against humanity.
I don't know why you bothered to ask the question if your mind is already made up. There is nothing I can say to you.
However, if you would actually be willing to hand over a baby to be tortured so that the rest of the world can be cured of disease, and can aquire technology far beyond our own capabilities, then you are no better then the fucker who straps a bomb to himself (or herself), walks into a cafe full of teenagers, or onto a bus, and blows himself, and every else, up.
No sir. No better than that at all.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
That's no excuse. We have higher reasoning skills. We are not animals, although there are people who make us think otherwise with their actions against humanity.
I don't know why you bothered to ask the question if your mind is already made up. There is nothing I can say to you.
However, if you would actually be willing to hand over a baby to be tortured so that the rest of the world can be cured of disease, and can aquire technology far beyond our own capabilities, then you are no better then the fucker who straps a bomb to himself (or herself), walks into a cafe full of teenagers, or onto a bus, and blows himself, and every else, up.
No sir. No better than that at all.
Lemme see if I can still do this. It's been a while since I've done anything but dick and fart jokes on the interweb.
First off... why I bothered to ask the question... To see what the reactions of others are. Who would be as warped as I am? Who would champion the "Every sperm is sacred" position, and so on. For some reason, I'm interested in seeing what the reactions of others are to questions like this. Being a pessimist, and of the opinion that humanity is a virus with shoes (thanks, Bill), I'm curious to see if there's still people out there who believe that life is sacred when the majority of the population is actually worse than I am.
Now, we have higher reasoning skills. We are not animals. By the merest of technicalities. Take one of these wars the Republicans love to get us into. In the heat of battle, will a man rationalize what he is doing? Will he use those vaunted "higher reasoning skills" to try and come to a peaceful, nonviolent solution with the other side? No. He will pretty much have on instinct... KILL!. In fact, I vould venture to reason that if you were to strip a man of all his creature comforts, no more supermarkets or TV or pornography, throw him into the wild to fend for himself, he would become just another animal, surviving on his instincts alone. These higher reasoning skills, the superior intellect is pretty much a facade. At the core of all humans is a base animalistic urge, and if pushed far enough, a man will throw away his years of indoctrination and become an animal. Basically what I'm trying to say is that we're all just animals in fancy clothing... a bunch of poodles in sweaters, ifuwheel. We're all still driven by the same instincts as animals... fuck, eat, kill, survive... and any amount of rationalization you throw on top of that means nothing. Every action taken by man is taken for one of those animalistic goals, no matter how much we try and couch it in humanistic bullshit.
Now, as to the last part of your sentence... there is a big difference between handing over one mewling infant to be tortured for the greater good of humanity and walking into a place with a bomb strapped onto oneself.
Now, I can see where you're coming from... the zealots who blow themselves up usually believe they're doing it for a greater good... one of those invisible people in the sky whom people debate on his dick size, is usually the one the zealots are doing it for. However, there is no tangible evidence of the existance of the invisible people, and there is no tangible evidence of what gifts would be bestowed upon someone or some group who blew up a bunch of teenagers in the name of Jebus. It's all hypothetical. However, if said aliens were real, and had the technology to wipe out disease and war and all the problems of mankind, one useless infant would be a small price to pay to gain peace and health and harmony. Those would be tangible results! And, if you must feel better about it... it's only a baby... odds are it wouldn't survive much torture. It would die quickly enough.
And to further extend this hypothetical situation... look at the advancements of the past 300 years. No one man has even made a dent in ending war, or famine, or curing mankind's diseases. And gains this one infant would've made for humanity would most likely be rendered moot by the gift of said baby-torturing aliens.
When it comes down to it, one baby is a cheap price to pay for the greater good. Hell, we could even use our higher reasoning skills to build a statue to the tyke... make it a martyr. Start a religion to it... say it's dick was bigger than some other martyr's. Because that is the nature of humanity.
Last edited by First National Bastard; 2004-01-30 2:58 PM.
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You make a lot of points, but I don't think it's really a true representation of humanity. Quote:
First National Bastard said:
Now, we have higher reasoning skills. We are not animals. By the merest of technicalities. Take one of these wars the Republicans love to get us into. In the heat of battle, will a man rationalize what he is doing? Will he use those vaunted "higher reasoning skills" to try and come to a peaceful, nonviolent solution with the other side? No. He will pretty much have on instinct... KILL!.
A good point, but it lacks the fact that soldiers are TRAINED to kill. Boot camp is nine weeks of breaking down man's social programing to get back to the more animal instincts of kill or be killed. Not everyone could kill in a battle situation. Some would just die because they can't. A majority of the population has to be conditioned for that kind of response. Even then, many aren't ready for the consequences.
Quote:
First National Bastard said:
In fact, I vould venture to reason that if you were to strip a man of all his creature comforts, no more supermarkets or TV or pornography, throw him into the wild to fend for himself, he would become just another animal, surviving on his instincts alone. These higher reasoning skills, the superior intellect is pretty much a facade. At the core of all humans is a base animalistic urge, and if pushed far enough, a man will throw away his years of indoctrination and become an animal. Basically what I'm trying to say is that we're all just animals in fancy clothing... a bunch of poodles in sweaters, ifuwheel. We're all still driven by the same instincts as animals... fuck, eat, kill, survive... and any amount of rationalization you throw on top of that means nothing. Every action taken by man is taken for one of those animalistic goals, no matter how much we try and couch it in humanistic bullshit.
Once again, I have to disagree. A man would do what was needed to survive, but he'd do it more than by just mere instincts. He'd set traps for food, make weapons for hunting and defense, build a shelter, etc. His intellect would answer his primal urges for food and such without him going all ape and bashing things with sticks and flinging his own poo. This is the very thing that allowed man to evolve beyond the rest of the animal kingdom. Humanity built itself up to surpass that stage and would do so again.
Quote:
First National Bastard said:
Now, as to the last part of your sentence... there is a big difference between handing over one mewling infant to be tortured for the greater good of humanity and walking into a place with a bomb strapped onto oneself.
Now, I can see where you're coming from... the zealots who blow themselves up usually believe they're doing it for a greater good... one of those invisible people in the sky whom people debate on his dick size, is usually the one the zealots are doing it for. However, there is no tangible evidence of the existance of the invisible people, and there is no tangible evidence of what gifts would be bestowed upon someone or some group who blew up a bunch of teenagers in the name of Jebus. It's all hypothetical. However, if said aliens were real, and had the technology to wipe out disease and war and all the problems of mankind, one useless infant would be a small price to pay to gain peace and health and harmony. Those would be tangible results! And, if you must feel better about it... it's only a baby... odds are it wouldn't survive much torture. It would die quickly enough.
Being a self proclaimed pessimist, I find it odd that you would automatically put your trust in an alien race that just happens to appear. And what proof do we have that these aliens will actually give us this technology? How do we not know that this is just some sick experiment to see how much we'd be willing to give up for their trinkets?
And when did you say that they'd give us peace? That wasn't part of your original statement. In fact, from your own arguement, we'd just use this technology to fight even more over who's invisible guy in the sky has the bigger dick. Wouldn't we just be gaining a better way to kill more of ourselves quicker?
Your arguement here doesn't support itself. You give all the good to the unknow variable (the aliens) while demonizing the entire human race for, mostly, only what a small portion has done.
Quote:
First National Bastard said:
And to further extend this hypothetical situation... look at the advancements of the past 300 years. No one man has even made a dent in ending war, or famine, or curing mankind's diseases. And gains this one infant would've made for humanity would most likely be rendered moot by the gift of said baby-torturing aliens.
You're right. We haven't made a polio vaccine or help damn near eliminate small pox. Oh.... wait.... we have.
Guess what, science takes time. Besides, we've done a lot more in the past 50 years in medicine and science than was done in the previous 200. We're catching up for lost time.
Quote:
First National Bastard said:
When it comes down to it, one baby is a cheap price to pay for the greater good.
A greater good that even a pessimist must admit is in question. I'd not give up the child becuase it shows humanity as weak and uncaring on the whole. We have our faults, but we're not that damn bad. Accepting the knowledge would come at the sacrifice of our own emotional, social well being. We'd only be gaining technology that we obviously aren't ready to understand and use properly. It's better if we wait until we develop it ourselves.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
is the baby from a rich white family?
If so, then definitely kill him.
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not to be racist... 
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Quote:
First National Bastard said:
if we allow them one baby to mutilate and torture. seems they love to torture and for the price of just one innocent baby we could have all of that good stuff. do we accept the deal?
Wasn't there a case of parents who had another baby simply in order to use that baby as a donor for another child?
If so, is this really different?
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You're not doing bad at all. Doc did a better job than I could in responding to the first part of your post. I do have something to say about this:
Quote:
First National Bastard said:
And to further extend this hypothetical situation... look at the advancements of the past 300 years. No one man has even made a dent in ending war, or famine, or curing mankind's diseases. And gains this one infant would've made for humanity would most likely be rendered moot by the gift of said baby-torturing aliens.
When it comes down to it, one baby is a cheap price to pay for the greater good. Hell, we could even use our higher reasoning skills to build a statue to the tyke... make it a martyr. Start a religion to it... say it's dick was bigger than some other martyr's. Because that is the nature of humanity.
This is where you are dead wrong. This one infant may grow up to be Joe Nobody, but, his child, grandchild, great grandchild, or some direct decendant of his 10 generations later may turn out be the person to discover the cure to aids, or cancer, or numerous other diseases. Or, perhaps the person will become a great scientest and discover how harness energy in an affordable way that won't polute the environment.
The point is, we can't know.
And, if we know that child cannot have children, who's to say that he won't influence someone to become better person, and cause some sort of chain reaction. Even if the child will grow up with some sort of problem, that doesn't mean he won't touch someone in some way, making the world a better place, one person at a time.
Ever the optimist, I know, but it's happened.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Yes I would for many reasons I don't feel like dwelling.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Yes I would for many reasons I don't feel like dwelling.
Cop out! 
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Feh!  Summed up into a sentence: I believe in acceptable losses.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Feh!
Summed up into a sentence: I believe in acceptable losses.
That's unacceptable.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
This is where you are dead wrong. This one infant may grow up to be Joe Nobody, but, his child, grandchild, great grandchild, or some direct decendant of his 10 generations later may turn out be the person to discover the cure to aids, or cancer, or numerous other diseases. Or, perhaps the person will become a great scientest and discover how harness energy in an affordable way that won't polute the environment.
This one child, his child, his grandchild, great grandchild, or blah, blah, blah may very well grow up to be the next Hitler. He could also grow up to be that black guy in Terminator who invented the technology that led to the machines that gave us a Arnold's naked ass shot.
I'd call that an acceptable loss.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
This is where you are dead wrong. This one infant may grow up to be Joe Nobody, but, his child, grandchild, great grandchild, or some direct decendant of his 10 generations later may turn out be the person to discover the cure to aids, or cancer, or numerous other diseases. Or, perhaps the person will become a great scientest and discover how harness energy in an affordable way that won't polute the environment.
This one child, his child, his grandchild, great grandchild, or blah, blah, blah may very well grow up to be the next Hitler. He could also grow up to be that black guy in Terminator who invented the technology that led to the machines that gave us a Arnold's naked ass shot.
I'd call that an acceptable loss.
You make a valid point. But, unless you can see into the future, it's not acceptable.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I accept that.
I don't.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
This is where you are dead wrong. This one infant may grow up to be Joe Nobody, but, his child, grandchild, great grandchild, or some direct decendant of his 10 generations later may turn out be the person to discover the cure to aids, or cancer, or numerous other diseases. Or, perhaps the person will become a great scientest and discover how harness energy in an affordable way that won't polute the environment.
This one child, his child, his grandchild, great grandchild, or blah, blah, blah may very well grow up to be the next Hitler. He could also grow up to be that black guy in Terminator who invented the technology that led to the machines that gave us a Arnold's naked ass shot.
I'd call that an acceptable loss.
True enough. But he could also be the next Kepler, George Washington Carver, Abraham Lincoln.....
I really don't care either way. The same prinicple could be used on the fact that I'm not shooting my jizz into a womb and making a baby that would be a visionary. And that's just plain flawed reasoning.
You see, ANYONE can be ANYTHING. Therefore, I believe in those acceptable losses. If that baby COULDA been a great person, another who's not the baby very well COULD be a great person themselves. No such thing as destiny.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
I accept that.
I don't.
I was just accepting the fact that you didn't accept it. 
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
I accept that.
I don't.
Well fine then, I do!!!
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
I accept that.
I don't.
I was just accepting the fact that you didn't accept it.
I know. I just couldn't come up with something clever at that moment.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
PenWing said:
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Pariah said:
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PenWing said:
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Pariah said:
I accept that.
I don't.
I was just accepting the fact that you didn't accept it.
I know. I just couldn't come up with something clever at that moment.
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Pariah said:
True enough. But he could also be the next Kepler, George Washington Carver, Abraham Lincoln.....
I really don't care either way. The same prinicple could be used on the fact that I'm not shooting my jizz into a womb and making a baby that would be a visionary. And that's just plain flawed reasoning.
You see, ANYONE can be ANYTHING. Therefore, I believe in those acceptable losses. If that baby COULDA been a great person, another who's not the baby very well COULD be a great person themselves. No such thing as destiny.
Do you really want to argue the difference between wasted seed and a living, breathing baby?
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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The post that was here didn't come out right and I can't figure out how to give it more sense, so I just deleted it altogether.
Last edited by Pariah; 2004-02-03 5:21 AM.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
sneaky bunny said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
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Pariah said:
I accept that.
I don't.
Well fine then, I do!!!
YOU WOULDN'T DARE!! 
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Joined: Aug 2001
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1500+ posts
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Do you really want to argue the difference between wasted seed and a living, breathing baby?
Well, if ya wanna do that, I'm a mass murderer. Hell, I'm a genocidal maniac.
Between the ages of 11 to present, I've killed millions... billions!... Not to mention all the kittens who have died because of me.
...Damn that Teri Hatcher!
Every sperm is not sacred.
First National Bastard
-Enormous, Sexually Voracious Lecher... who wants to claim your immortal soul!!!.
Every time you masturbate, God Kills a kitten! Please... think of the Kittens.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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PenWing said:
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Wednesday said:
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PenWing said:
This is where you are dead wrong. This one infant may grow up to be Joe Nobody, but, his child, grandchild, great grandchild, or some direct decendant of his 10 generations later may turn out be the person to discover the cure to aids, or cancer, or numerous other diseases. Or, perhaps the person will become a great scientest and discover how harness energy in an affordable way that won't polute the environment.
This one child, his child, his grandchild, great grandchild, or blah, blah, blah may very well grow up to be the next Hitler. He could also grow up to be that black guy in Terminator who invented the technology that led to the machines that gave us a Arnold's naked ass shot.
I'd call that an acceptable loss.
You make a valid point. But, unless you can see into the future, it's not acceptable.
My misstated point was that since you can't tell the baby's future, what he or she could grow up to be isn't an issue.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
My misstated point was that since you can't tell the baby's future, what he or she could grow up to be isn't an issue.
So, I am arguing that b/c you we can't see into the future, we can't give over the baby.
You are arguing that b/c we can't see into the future, the issue is moot.
Hmm.
Well, to act all childish here for a moment:
I'm right, you're wrong, end of story! 
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Joined: Sep 2003
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Quote:
Pariah said:
The post that was here didn't come out right and I can't figure out how to give it more sense, so I just deleted it altogether.
Well, anytime you figure out how to express what you wanted to say...
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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I guess it all depends on how much of a price you put on a human life. A trade of one life to improve others is all well and good in my opinion... if it's that person making a choice of their own to give their life to that end. If we take an innocent life of our own accord, then no matter what technological advances it might bring, I honestly don't think we've improved the true quality of life one bit.
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