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Let me try to simplify the second to last message:
How many people do you think would buy something like Action Comics #878 based on hype that said "This story takes place out of continuity", and how many people do you think would buy a one shot called "Superman: This Story is Out of Continuity (ok, the title sucks, but you know what I mean)?
Historically speaking, in continuity stories sell more than one shots do, while out of continuity stories told in the main titles have, for the past five years, killed the Superman franchise.
Look at all the attention that Rucka's run has gathered even before the first issue came out, all based on rumors that said that he's using the John Byrne MoS continuity.
That doesn't tell you anything about what readers want?
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Obviously you didn't listen or it didn't work so here it is again:
ok mota, heres the plan:
First: take a deep breath, and say comics are not real
second: bend over and reach between your legs, see a stick sticking out of your ass? Good now pull it out. That should help immensely.
Third: Get out of your parents basement, take a shower, and go outside.
That bright thing in the sky is the sun, and no it doesn't give you super powers. Talk to people. The ones with the long hair and boobies are called women. They make men happy. If you have to there are ones that you can pay to teach you things, they are usually in bad parts of town, but since you live in Mexico, thats everywhere.
Get drunk and pay for one. In the morning you will realize there are more important things in the world than comic book continuity.
This should help you, and don't worry I don't expect any thanks, you calming down should be enough thanks for me and every one else.
now known as rex
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 said: I mean, what kind of random reader would pick up a comic with three-digit numbering? Thats like saying you wouldn't start watching a tv show unless you saw the first episode to the current episode. It's also like saying you wouldn't talk to someone unless you knew them since you were born. It's called obsessive-Comulsive disorder. There is a treatment.
now known as rex
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Many people don't watch TV shows unless they've seen it from the first episode.
Why do you think shows like Angel, which tell multi episode arcs, suddenly change to single episode arcs (and then get canceled)?
Do you think people can watch 24 after missing 5-8 episodes?
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:Where are they?
Where are all of these hundreds of people that don't care about continuity?
All my real life friends that like comics and most of the online ones don't give a shit about continuity.
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I have new for you, continuity or not, those people aren't buying comics.
Well, DUH! Because up until recently they were, at least in DC, ruled by continuity. It's hard to shake that anal retentive image of comics off one's head. I've told people about DiDio's speech and they say "We'll see."
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People that like continuity LEFT comics the moment the publishers stopped using it and NO ONE came out to replace them.
No, they left the moment it started becoming a problem. During the first years of the post Crisis DCU there wasn't enough continuity to make it a problem for writers and readers. Once that continuity started getting old (mid-90's), guess what, most of the shit started sucking and people started leaving.
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You do understand that the only reason to a story in the main comic is for continuity, right?
NO. A story in any comic is for the sake of a good story. It can be a one issue story, it can be a twelve year story, whatever. The purpose is to produce good stories. If it was all about continuity 22 pages of Bat-Man sitting in a couch would be enough to make a good comic. Continuity for the sake of continuity is a waste of paper. Making a story follow continuity isn't enough to make a good comic. On the other hand, a good story that doesn't follow continuity is still a good story.
Maybe you buy comics to see a story continued for eternity, not caring if it's good or bad, but I think that's pointless and a waste of money. You can have your continuity following "stories" for all I care, but don't expect everyone to accept that every main comic should be like that.
I insist, and this is my main point: AS LONG AS THERE ARE WRITERS WILLING TO TELL STORIES YOUR WAY, THAT'S WHAT YOU'LL GET. If there are no writers willing to do that... or just a bunch of them... then, bad luck for you. You can't force writers to follow your rules.
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Mxy, I really think that you're loosing perspective of this.
You're argueing that writers should be able to tell out of continuity stories in the main titles so that people that don't like continuity can buy them.
Sigh... That's not what I mean. It's all about the stories. A story can be produced with or without continuity. Forcing a writer who doesn't want to use continuity to use it is as stupid as forcing a writer who WANTS to use continuity not to use it. What I'm against is forcing writers to use something they don't want to use, so that we get good stories. My opinion is that lame stories come from forcing writers to do things. So you think continuity is the best way to go... whatever. If the writer doesn't, that's his right, and there's nothing you can do about it.
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Do you see how illogical that is?
I mean, what kind of random reader would pick up a comic with three-digit numbering?
Uh... That's a weak argument. I would pick a comic with a seven digit numbering if there was something about it that attracted me. The first issue of Superman I picked up was Action #687. Around that same time I picked up issues of X-Men, Spider-Man and Bat-Man. I can't remember the exact numbers, but htey were pretty high. And I enjoyed most of those issues.
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Doesn't it make more sense to tell out of continuity stories in separately titled one shots so that random readers can just pick them up without having to be overwhelmed by the high numbering of the ongoing series?
If there's something good going on in the in-continuity main series, then yeah. But what if it's a low selling lame comic? Or, it's a good comic, but the writer that made it good just left? And then a writer comes in with a brilliant idea for the comic, that happens to contradict something that happened some time ago in that same comic. I say give him the main comic and don't worry about continuity. Those that do worry about it and don't care wether it's a good story or not, can just skip it. Buy something else. Read an old issue. Go have an ice cream. Give the money to charity. Whatever.
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Leave the ongoing series to those of us that are gonna go out of their way to buy the comics month in and month out, and make separate one shots for the random readers that just want something to read to kill time.
What do you mean, "to kill time"? What does that mean? So they -we- are less of a reader because we don't follow a comic not caring if it's good or bad? I'd say we're more of a reader, because we actually read, we actually care about the quality of the story and not just wether it contradicts anything from the past 17 years or not.
Going out of your way to buy the comic every month doesn't make you special. It may make you loyal to the character (a loyalty I don't understand -- by buying lame stuff you're only encouraging the editorial to publish it), but it doesn't give you the right to chose what happens in the comic. I may not buy all the comics every month, but Superman is as mine as it is yours. We're both fans with opposing points of view. There's no reason why DC should listen to you and ignore me.
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The odds of a reader that isn't interested in continuity buying a three-digit numbered comic are pretty slim to begin with (why do you think Marvel keeps relaunching their titles?)
I disagree. I think most new readers to a character start buying comics that have already started. A long time ago or last year, it doesn't matter.
And let's sey you're right... so that comic is ONLY for old readers? That would mean people can't join, they can only leave.
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I don't see why continuity fans and non-continuity fans can't get what they both want.
Right! Monthly ongoing comics for all.
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Ongoing series for continuity fans (those that are sure to buy the comic every month), and one shots and three-four issue minis for the non-continuity fans, those of us that only buy a comic every three months.
If a selective reader buys only once every three months it's because there's nothing good in between. As I said, a story can take one issue or ten years. If an ongoing series keeps producing good stories I'll buy it for as long as it lasts. If I don't have money, I'll make money.
I like to think that if everyone was a selective reader we would get nothing but good stories every month. By not buying a lame run you're making an statement: HEY, DC, I DON'T LIKE LAME RUNS!
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ManofTheAtom said:
Did you hear about the three-way crossover between the Smalvlille comic book, the Smallville website and... what was the third one? The TV show or another issue of the comic?
I don't remember the third one, but either way, crossovers between multiple media CAN happen, and it happens more often than you think.
Even if that was true (I don't think it is, I think the Smallville thing is a rarity), there's NO way the amount of stories reaches the quantity of some comics.
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And in 99.99% of those cases those stories don't leave a mark, they come and go.
Remember Young Sherlock Holmes?
Awesome movie (one of my favorites) that didn't go anywhere.
That movie was the equivalent of an out of continuity comic.
No one involved with the movie said "this happened! This is cannon! Ignore the novels, this is the way it happened from now on!!". They just told their fun little movie and that was it, period.
So?! You still enjoyed it. It was still a good movie. It's still worth it. It's still there to be enjoyed. How is that "not going everywhere"? There's lots of good movies, shows and comics that are stand-alone and that doesn't make them less good.
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Yeah, so?
Crisis erased the past. Crisis was the exception to what you quoted because that was its purpose, to clean the barnacles, the chains, and the crap, to make way for the new.
BR doesn't have anything similar to it.
If it did, then MAYBE more people would have accepted it.
This is what you said before:
"New ideas don't have to come at the cost of the PAST.
The past DOESN'T have to be re written to explore new ideas."
Crisis erased the past to clear the way for new stories. And that's it.
Birthright isn't erasing the past? Hmm, maybe that's it's problem.
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Byrne had Crisis, as did Perez and Miller.
What does Waid have?
Eddie Berganza, franchise killer.
Not so much of a comparison...
But they're doing basically the same thing. Difference is, you don't like it. So nobody should.
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ManofTheAtom said:Historically speaking, in continuity stories sell more than one shots do, while out of continuity stories told in the main titles have, for the past five years, killed the Superman franchise.
That's because they're not exactly out of continuity stories, are they? They're not exactly in continuity either. They're somewhere in between to try to please everyone. Take that whole Return to Krypton thing: wasn't all that explained to fit the MoS origin?
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Many people don't watch TV shows unless they've seen it from the first episode.
Why do you think shows like Angel, which tell multi episode arcs, suddenly change to single episode arcs (and then get canceled)?
Do you think people can watch 24 after missing 5-8 episodes?
I think everyone of my favorite shows I started watching at the middle. I started watching Buffy steadily halfway through the third year.
You like Star Trek. Did you start by watching the first episode?
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
All my real life friends that like comics and most of the online ones don't give a shit about continuity.
I bet I can prove you wrong on that 
Besides comics, what kind of entertainment do your real life friends like?
What TV or video games?
I bet that they know some continuity from either a favorite TV show or a favorite series of video games.
In most cases that I've seen continuity isn't the problem, the problem is the medium.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Well, DUH! Because up until recently they were, at least in DC, ruled by continuity. It's hard to shake that anal retentive image of comics off one's head. I've told people about DiDio's speech and they say "We'll see."
Then those people are retards that think that comics can't be real entertainment, that they should be only for the simplistic minded.
Throwaway reading for when you go to the bathroom.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
No, they left the moment it started becoming a problem. During the first years of the post Crisis DCU there wasn't enough continuity to make it a problem for writers and readers. Once that continuity started getting old (mid-90's), guess what, most of the shit started sucking and people started leaving.
That had nothing to do with continuity.
The quality of the stories is up to the writer and the penciler, nothing more.
Continuity's a tool... either you know how to use it or you don't, period.
Blame the suckage of those comics on the writers not being good enough to use the tool, not on the tool itself.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
NO. A story in any comic is for the sake of a good story. It can be a one issue story, it can be a twelve year story, whatever. The purpose is to produce good stories. If it was all about continuity 22 pages of Bat-Man sitting in a couch would be enough to make a good comic. Continuity for the sake of continuity is a waste of paper. Making a story follow continuity isn't enough to make a good comic. On the other hand, a good story that doesn't follow continuity is still a good story.
A story without repercutions... what's the fun in that?
I'm not saying that all stories have to be writen to address past continuity, just that once they are writen they become part of continuity.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Maybe you buy comics to see a story continued for eternity, not caring if it's good or bad, but I think that's pointless and a waste of money. You can have your continuity following "stories" for all I care, but don't expect everyone to accept that every main comic should be like that.
You're using the words good and bad like if they were a standard, when they're a preference.
What if we were talking about food and you were trying to convince me how great a burrito is?
You may love to eat burritos, but maybe I don't, maybe I hate the taste.
Same with comics.
You think that Superman between 86 and 99 sucked.
I think it was great.
To me it was good, to you it was bad.
Not a standard, but a preference.
See the difference?
You can't use terms like good and bad like you're doing.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I insist, and this is my main point: AS LONG AS THERE ARE WRITERS WILLING TO TELL STORIES YOUR WAY, THAT'S WHAT YOU'LL GET. If there are no writers willing to do that... or just a bunch of them... then, bad luck for you. You can't force writers to follow your rules.
Looking at sales in the last five years, which is when the Superman writers stopped using continuity, it's "bad luck" not just for the readers but for the writers.
Writers and pencilers in the Superman comics were just fired for sucking, for being so "bad" that no one wanted to read their crap.
Ignoring continuity cost them their jobs.
You say that using continuity is just as bad.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Sigh... That's not what I mean. It's all about the stories. A story can be produced with or without continuity. Forcing a writer who doesn't want to use continuity to use it is as stupid as forcing a writer who WANTS to use continuity not to use it. What I'm against is forcing writers to use something they don't want to use, so that we get good stories. My opinion is that lame stories come from forcing writers to do things. So you think continuity is the best way to go... whatever. If the writer doesn't, that's his right, and there's nothing you can do about it.
It's their right, and many writers used that right.
Those writers no longer have a job because of it...
Funny how using continuity leads to popular stories and ignoring it leads to unpopular ones, eh?
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Uh... That's a weak argument. I would pick a comic with a seven digit numbering if there was something about it that attracted me. The first issue of Superman I picked up was Action #687. Around that same time I picked up issues of X-Men, Spider-Man and Bat-Man. I can't remember the exact numbers, but htey were pretty high. And I enjoyed most of those issues.
Which I bet had continuity in them...
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
If there's something good going on in the in-continuity main series, then yeah. But what if it's a low selling lame comic? Or, it's a good comic, but the writer that made it good just left? And then a writer comes in with a brilliant idea for the comic, that happens to contradict something that happened some time ago in that same comic. I say give him the main comic and don't worry about continuity. Those that do worry about it and don't care wether it's a good story or not, can just skip it. Buy something else. Read an old issue. Go have an ice cream. Give the money to charity. Whatever.
Again, writers that ignore continuity end up getting fired, while writers that honor continuity become popular.
Remember Geoff Johns?
Remember Stars & S.T.R.I.P.E.?
He's a continuity writer with a strong fan following.
The Super writers, who started as X-Men writers with a strong fan following, lost it after their work on Superman because they decided to ignore continuity.
It's their choice, sure, but you can't ignore the fact that writers that ignore continuity don't produce good or popular stories.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
What do you mean, "to kill time"? What does that mean? So they -we- are less of a reader because we don't follow a comic not caring if it's good or bad? I'd say we're more of a reader, because we actually read, we actually care about the quality of the story and not just wether it contradicts anything from the past 17 years or not.
But you don't care about the quality of the story, you only care about the quality of the issue.
You just want something to read to kill time.
You won't follow a series if it uses continuity, you only want to buy something by impulse so you can read in a day or whatever.
That's what one shots and minis are for.
Buy a Superman one shot, it'll give you what you're looking for.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Going out of your way to buy the comic every month doesn't make you special. It may make you loyal to the character (a loyalty I don't understand -- by buying lame stuff you're only encouraging the editorial to publish it), but it doesn't give you the right to chose what happens in the comic. I may not buy all the comics every month, but Superman is as mine as it is yours. We're both fans with opposing points of view. There's no reason why DC should listen to you and ignore me.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that you are a reader that ISN'T going to buy a comic every single month, it's not within you.
But you still have the right to read a story with that character if you want to.
Buy a one shot, it has a beginning, middle and end.
Why buy an ongoing series that you're not going to follow?
Don't tell me that the moment comics stop using continuity you'll start buying Superman on a monthly basis.
What you want is for the ongoing series to be turned into a series of 12 one shots a year, each one individual from the other.
Or for there to be 2-3 issue stories, which would make it a series of mini series and one shots.
Why not just get the mini series and one shots and leave the ongoing series to those that buy it year round?
Everyone wins.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I disagree. I think most new readers to a character start buying comics that have already started. A long time ago or last year, it doesn't matter.
So each comic should ignore continuity because it's someone's first?
That doesn't work, that's impossible to do.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
And let's sey you're right... so that comic is ONLY for old readers? That would mean people can't join, they can only leave.
You're generalizing what I said.
I said the ongoing series for the continuity fans and the one shots and minis for the impulse buyers, those that like you don't care about continuity, only want to read a random Superman story that doesn't depend on what came before or comes after.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Right! Monthly ongoing comics for all.
Doesn't work.
The non-continuity fans don't want it and the continuity fans do.
Why fight over the ongoing titles when we can each have what we want?
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
If a selective reader buys only once every three months it's because there's nothing good in between. As I said, a story can take one issue or ten years. If an ongoing series keeps producing good stories I'll buy it for as long as it lasts. If I don't have money, I'll make money.
Good is subjective to your preference, it's not a standard.
You keep saying that I buy "bad" comics... just because YOU don't like them, doesn't make them bad.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I like to think that if everyone was a selective reader we would get nothing but good stories every month. By not buying a lame run you're making an statement: HEY, DC, I DON'T LIKE LAME RUNS!
There's no such thing as good.
Good is a subjective term.
You can't use it as a standard
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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said: What if we were talking about food and you were trying to convince me how great a burrito is? You may love to eat burritos, but maybe I don't, maybe I hate the taste. Everybody knows mexicans love burritos.
now known as rex
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Even if that was true (I don't think it is, I think the Smallville thing is a rarity), there's NO way the amount of stories reaches the quantity of some comics.
Let's say it doesn't. Who says it has to?
Comics are its own entertainment medium with its own rules.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
So?! You still enjoyed it. It was still a good movie. It's still worth it. It's still there to be enjoyed. How is that "not going everywhere"? There's lots of good movies, shows and comics that are stand-alone and that doesn't make them less good.
And there are a lot of comics that do leave a mark and that doesn't mean they're bad.
Comics that become memorable do it for a reason.
Those that don't do it because they aren't worth remembering.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
This is what you said before:
"New ideas don't have to come at the cost of the PAST.
The past DOESN'T have to be re written to explore new ideas."
Crisis erased the past to clear the way for new stories. And that's it.
Birthright isn't erasing the past? Hmm, maybe that's it's problem.
Crisis didn't erase the past to make way for good stories.
(and I just know someone is gonna pick on that to say how much the post Crisis stories sucked...)
Crisis erased the past to FIX it, because it was broken.
It had been watered down.
Superman went from being the only Kryptonian to being one of millions.
That went against the main concept of the character, it needed to be fixed.
Killing all those other Kryptonians to make Superman the only one again would have been lame.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
But they're doing basically the same thing. Difference is, you don't like it. So nobody should.
I have news for you, I'm not the only one that didn't like BR.
A guy over at the DC board opened a thread thanking Mark Waid for helping him drop the Superman comics and save his money...
Many people have opened similar threads.
The BR fans are in the minority... you don't have to take my word, go to the DC board and see for yourself.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
rexstardust said:
Everybody knows mexicans love burritos.
Stereotype much?
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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now known as rex
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
That's because they're not exactly out of continuity stories, are they? They're not exactly in continuity either. They're somewhere in between to try to please everyone. Take that whole Return to Krypton thing: wasn't all that explained to fit the MoS origin?
Yep, because the writers knew they didn't have anything good to offer so they backed out from what they were doing and they put things back the way they found them.
Which is pointless now because while in that story both character and readers were given an explanation, this time the changes are taking place just because the editor wants them to.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
rexstardust said:
All the time, Pablo.
Mike actually.
Well, then you're lucky I'm not Italian, if I were I'd send someone to break your legs... 
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think everyone of my favorite shows I started watching at the middle. I started watching Buffy steadily halfway through the third year.
You like Star Trek. Did you start by watching the first episode?
Eventually, yeah.
I didn't start with the first episode, but eventually I got to see both the first two episodes.
I didn't like the first season of TNG because it wasn't TOS but in time I grew to like it, DS9 and Voyager.
See, once you start to like something, things like continuity don't matter anymore.
If you don't really like something then things like continuity will always be a problem.
As a Buffy fan that you are, I'm sure that when in a recent episode of Angel Spike mentioned his past in Sunnydale you smiled because you knew what he was talking about.
For someone that never saw Buffy, it was just a throwaway line that didn't mean anything.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Mike actually.
Well, then you're lucky I'm not Italian, if I were I'd send someone to break your legs...
Okay Miguel.
now known as rex
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Quote:
rexstardust said:
Okay Miguel.
You can't read, can you?
It's MIKE.
Damn you're an idiot.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Look up the definition of humor in the dictionary, fucktard.
To misquote Terry McGinnis/Batman Beyond: The Return of the Joker: "MOTA, you wouldn't know a joke if it bit you in the cape."
Lighten up. SHEESH! Why don't you take up some hobby where the other people won't argue with you? Go collect Bazooka Joe comics or something.
Last edited by Captain Cranky; 2004-03-26 8:48 PM.
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:I bet I can prove you wrong on that
Besides comics, what kind of entertainment do your real life friends like?
What TV or video games?
I bet that they know some continuity from either a favorite TV show or a favorite series of video games.
In most cases that I've seen continuity isn't the problem, the problem is the medium.
If continuity ever got in the way of making a good game or a good TV show, I assure you they'd tell it to go fuck itself. They may now a game or a show's continuity very well (I know Superman's post-Crisis continuity fairly well) but still manage to keep their priorities straight. If not, then I'd be having this same discussion with them.
In fact, everyone I've mentioned this kind of arguments to thinks you're fucking nuts.
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Then those people are retards that think that comics can't be real entertainment, that they should be only for the simplistic minded.
You're the fucking idiot for thinking that they're idiots (BTW, I try not to use retard as an insult... I'm sorry that I changed the word for idiot, but I think we mean the same thing). They do believe in comics... however, believing in comics doesn't mean believing in continuity. Just because continuity is a vital part of comics for you doesn't mean the same holds true for everyone else. Some of us happen to enjoy comics for the stories.
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Throwaway reading for when you go to the bathroom.
For when you're looking for a good story, a concept you don't seem to understand. So, lemme get this straight, they're "throwaway" reading becuase they're not (necessarily) connected to the others comics? Then, I suppouse, standalone movies and books are throwaway reading too.
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That had nothing to do with continuity.
The quality of the stories is up to the writer and the penciler, nothing more.
And the work of the penciller and the reader can be affected by what they're forced to do and not to do. This is my theory: Forcing writers to do ANYTHING (follow continuity or not follow it) produces lame mediocre stories. Yes, there are times when a writer can work with continuity just fine -- but JUST LIKE THAT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THEY CAN'T. One writer can produce a marvelous story that uses continuity and an awful one depending on how he feels about it in that particular case.
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Continuity's a tool... either you know how to use it or you don't, period.
Maybe you feel like disregarding the work of a writer just because he doesn't want to use continuity in a particular case, but I don't. I'll still give it a chance and maybe a find an amazing story you'll be missing because of your illogic intollerance.
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Blame the suckage of those comics on the writers not being good enough to use the tool, not on the tool itself.
A tool is something you CAN use or not use, not something you HAVE to use. Continuity is a tool and I agree on that, but you want it to be more than that, you want it to be a fucking unbreakable rule even though you know there's people who don't like it because of that ego distortion you have in your head that doesn't allow you to see things from any other point of view but yours. I mean, I can get in your shoes and understand why you like continuity and be an intelligent person: you can't get in my shoes and understand why in some cases I don't like it without thinking I'm a moron. I do think you're a moron, but no because you like continuity, because of your intollerance and limited view.
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A story without repercutions... what's the fun in that?
The story itself. Think about standalone books and movies again.
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I'm not saying that all stories have to be writen to address past continuity, just that once they are writen they become part of continuity.
And that can limit them: you have in some cases a shitload of comics, entire decades of them, to keep in mind and respect. Even if you don't plan to mention them, a consistent continuity must take into consideration everything that happens before. You can't ask every writer to agree with doing that.
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You're using the words good and bad like if they were a standard, when they're a preference.
What if we were talking about food and you were trying to convince me how great a burrito is?
You may love to eat burritos, but maybe I don't, maybe I hate the taste.
Then you'd call me and everyone who likes burritos a fucking simple minded moron and demand that burritos are banned from street stands and relegated to a few especialized restaurants.
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Same with comics.
You think that Superman between 86 and 99 sucked.
Oh my fucking Gob...
What's inside that head?
Are you a rocket scientist or something so your brain is completely full and you can't enter any new information?
How many times have I said that I actually like Man of Steel? I liked Byrne's Superman. I loved Ordway and Stern's Superman. I like the Jurgens Supersquad. Afer 1994 things started decreasing... they were good, but not as good as before. Then they were lame and mediocre. Simple run of the mill superhero stuff with no depht and nothing interesting happening. Not even something cool.
But, in general, I liked the 86-99 era. Overall, the lameness in the end was overshadowed by how good the beggining and middle were. I liked it. But it's over. Just because I liked a story doesn't mean I like to see it continued forever. Quite opposite: as a story goes along it tends to get harder and harder to produce good stories (this is why people like Gaiman, Moore, Ennis and Morrison are smart enough to stop the stories by themselves before they get lame). Precisely BECAUSE of my love for those stories is that I want to see the one, big story finished. I can always go back and re-read it, or find a rare issue I didn't have.
Now, all this just entered your brain through the right ear and flew away through the left.
I guess you also think I always hate continuity and love the Silver Age.
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I think it was great.
To me it was good, to you it was bad.
Not a standard, but a preference.
See the difference?
You can't use terms like good and bad like you're doing.
Okay, now that that's clear... that had nothing to do with what I said. This is what I said:
"Maybe you buy comics to see a story continued for eternity, not caring if it's good or bad, but I think that's pointless and a waste of money. You can have your continuity following "stories" for all I care, but don't expect everyone to accept that every main comic should be like that."
Ok, let's analyze that step by step.
"Maybe you buy comics to see a story continued for eternity,"
I would rather let them end once when their time comes. That's the nature of every story. A beginning, a middle, and an end.
"not caring if it's good or bad, but I think that's pointless and a waste of money."
I mean if the individual stories are good or bad. The ones that are being produced at the time. By 1999 the stories were, let's face it, lame. Yet you still would have liked the same writers to keep going on forever. You've admitted it yourself several times: you prefer a continuity abiding lame story to a continuity disrespecting good one, because, for you, the good story stops being a good story once it disrespects continuity (something completely irrational: a good story is a good story, period. Continuity is secondary.)
"You can have your continuity following "stories" for all I care, but don't expect everyone to accept that every main comic should be like that."
I mean that you can have one, three, five, ten, twenty comics that stretch one continuity forever for all I care, but don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Precisely because not everyone feels the same way, there should be space in the main monthly comics for stories that (lemme put it in a way you'll understand) start new continuities, wether the writer intends someone else to follow them or not. A continuity can be one single issue.
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Looking at sales in the last five years, which is when the Superman writers stopped using continuity, it's "bad luck" not just for the readers but for the writers.
Writers and pencilers in the Superman comics were just fired for sucking, for being so "bad" that no one wanted to read their crap.
Ignoring continuity cost them their jobs.
Sigh... I've explained that the problem there was that the writers didn't stop using continuity altogether: it remained lurking behind the scenes, never defied or openly contradicted, because the writers wanted to please everyone. Or HAD to do it, which would be even worse.
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You say that using continuity is just as bad.
When it's forced, of course it is. Just like it would be bad to force writers to make their characters wear clown clothes. As long as they're forced to do something they don't agree with they'll do their job lamely: this is the source, I think, of the lameness of most part of the 90's.
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It's their right, and many writers used that right.
Those writers no longer have a job because of it...
Funny how using continuity leads to popular stories and ignoring it leads to unpopular ones, eh?
What the fuck? Okay, so you got Birthright: but it didn't do bad because it didn't use continuity, it did bad because of the own merits of the book (people bought the first issue knowing that it didn't use continuity: that's now what made them stop buying, it's the story itself). And you got the last five years of Superman: but they did use continuity, in a half-arsed sort of way to try to make everyone happy but failing miserably. Just for curiosity (I have no idea about this) how did the first issues of the Return to Krypton arc sell? It openly defied continuity (seemingly: it was later explained to fit it, but nobody knew that at the time).
What other cases have you got of out of continuity stories being unpopular just because they're out of continuity?
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Which I bet had continuity in them...
Exactly. Except the Bat-Man issue. It was a self-contained arc. All the others used continuity heavily.
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Again, writers that ignore continuity end up getting fired, while writers that honor continuity become popular.
Remember Geoff Johns?
That thesis has no foundation. You came up with it just now.
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It's their choice, sure, but you can't ignore the fact that writers that ignore continuity don't produce good or popular stories.
We don't know that because it hasn't happened yet. I insist: the Superman comics aren't a good example of out of continuity stories. We haven't seen out of continuity stories within the main titles yet, we don't know how much they would sell.
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But you don't care about the quality of the story, you only care about the quality of the issue.
Which is a story by itself!!!! You consider the whole series a story ALWAYS, I don't, not necessarily, only if it's meant that way.
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You just want something to read to kill time.
Agh! I want a good fucking story, not because I want to kill time, but because I enjoy good fucking stories. They inspire me. Once in a while a good story comes along that renews my faith in comics.
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You won't follow a series if it uses continuity, you only want to buy something by impulse so you can read in a day or whatever.
I'll follow a 100 issue series that uses continuity as long as it's good. I'll buy a self conclusive issue as long as it's good.
I think you have a problem understanding something: of the two, I'm not the one that closes himself to things. I'm open to let continuity give me a good story and I'll enjoy it. You're the intollerant one.
See, there's only one thing I can't stand: mediocre stories. Lame shit. That pisses me off. That's my achile's heel. When I come across a lame story, a waste of paper, a waste of money, I get fucking mad. And when I find out that that story was forced on the writer (for example, a forced crossover or a forced issue to explain how something fits in continuity), I get mad at whatever the reason for forcing it was. And I've found that in many cases it's continuity.
This is why I need to be selective with my comics. I can't buy any piece of shit just because it's part of the same continuity as the other stories like you do. This is why I buy less comics than you, not because I don't love comics as much.
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That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that you are a reader that ISN'T going to buy a comic every single month, it's not within you.
But you still have the right to read a story with that character if you want to.
Buy a one shot, it has a beginning, middle and end.
Why buy an ongoing series that you're not going to follow?
I'll follow it as long as it's good. That's the difference between you and me: you don't care if it's good as long as it's in continuity.
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Don't tell me that the moment comics stop using continuity you'll start buying Superman on a monthly basis.
Not if it's not good, no. On the opposite hand, if someone comes along and actually makes a good run out of a story that respects EVERYTHING that's happened from 1986 to now (something that would completely shock me), I'd sure as fuck buy it.
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What you want is for the ongoing series to be turned into a series of 12 one shots a year, each one individual from the other.
No, I want a series of 12 good stories a year. I don't care if they're self conclusive or not: I'm open for a one shot just as I'm open for a 100 issue run as long as they're good.
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So each comic should ignore continuity because it's someone's first?
That doesn't work, that's impossible to do.
Not immediate continuity, that would be contraproducent, but certainly decades old continuity. Not only is that possible to do, it's very necessary.
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You're generalizing what I said.
I said the ongoing series for the continuity fans and the one shots and minis for the impulse buyers, those that like you don't care about continuity, only want to read a random Superman story that doesn't depend on what came before or comes after.
No, that's what I said: you want the main titles to be for old readers only. Isn't that a bit selfish?
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Doesn't work.
The non-continuity fans don't want it and the continuity fans do.
Why fight over the ongoing titles when we can each have what we want?
The one shots and minis are not enough. I wish they were, but they're not.
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Good is subjective to your preference, it's not a standard.
You keep saying that I buy "bad" comics... just because YOU don't like them, doesn't make them bad.
No, I call them bad because you admit they're bad. You've admitted that you've continued to buy every Superman comic for the last five years even though you hate them. That's what I'm talking about.
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There's no such thing as good.
Good is a subjective term.
You can't use it as a standard
You bought Superman comics for those five years: you helped it get published for those five years. As simple as that.
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I think I've said everything I need to say in this last post. I'll only address a few points from your other posts: Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
And there are a lot of comics that do leave a mark and that doesn't mean they're bad.
Comics that become memorable do it for a reason.
Those that don't do it because they aren't worth remembering.
Watchmen left no mark in continuity. Neither did DKR. Some of the great works in comics get reverted by other writers within a year: that doesn't make the stories any less memorable.
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Crisis didn't erase the past to make way for good stories.
(and I just know someone is gonna pick on that to say how much the post Crisis stories sucked...)
Crisis erased the past to FIX it, because it was broken.
To make way for good stories. Good stories is the purpose of the whole thing. Otherwise this wouldn't exist.
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ManofTheAtom said:
Yep, because the writers knew they didn't have anything good to offer so they backed out from what they were doing and they put things back the way they found them.
That was the plan all along. I knew it from the beginning. They didn't have the guts to disrespect continuity.
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think everyone of my favorite shows I started watching at the middle. I started watching Buffy steadily halfway through the third year.
You like Star Trek. Did you start by watching the first episode?
Eventually, yeah.
I didn't start with the first episode, but eventually I got to see both the first two episodes.
I didn't like the first season of TNG because it wasn't TOS but in time I grew to like it, DS9 and Voyager.
See, once you start to like something, things like continuity don't matter anymore.
If you don't really like something then things like continuity will always be a problem.
As a Buffy fan that you are, I'm sure that when in a recent episode of Angel Spike mentioned his past in Sunnydale you smiled because you knew what he was talking about.
For someone that never saw Buffy, it was just a throwaway line that didn't mean anything.
Your whole point was that most people start watching shows from the beggining. You started watching Star Trek far from the beginning, but it interested you enough to stick with it and even get to watch the first episodes.
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Your whole point was that most people start watching shows from the beggining. You started watching Star Trek far from the beginning, but it interested you enough to stick with it and even get to watch the first episodes.
I said most people don't watch TV shows in the middle.
MOST, not all.
Just like those that do watch TV shows starting at the middle become interested in them to the point of following the show and catching re runs of what they missed, the same can happen in comics, but not if the stories in the ONGOING series are self contained to the point that they don't make people curious of what came before.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:I said most people don't watch TV shows in the middle.
MOST, not all.
I think it's the opposite. Few shows are big right away.
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Just like those that do watch TV shows starting at the middle become interested in them to the point of following the show and catching re runs of what they missed, the same can happen in comics, but not if the stories in the ONGOING series are self contained to the point that they don't make people curious of what came before.
I wanna catch up with Buffy, I watch the re-runs. I wanna catch up with Superman, I buy 17 years of comics. Yeah, that's sane.
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