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sneaky bunny said:
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thedoctor said:
Nice 180 there. It can't learn or understand; but it can suffer, huh?
excuse me, doc, sweety, boby, baby, I'm all for pulling the plug and the whole DNR thing.
I just had to mention the whole flip-flop from an unborn baby just being a mass of cells to you not wanting one to "suffer". The fact that you consider it able to suffer hurts your arguement that it is unable to "love and understand".
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winged creature said:
m talking about the fetus in the mothers womb, that cannot survive without the mother. If it cannot survive on its own then it is not a person just an underveloped sac of cells.
It also cannot function without its mother after birth. Does that mean that it is still unable to be a functioning person?
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Animalman said:
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sneaky bunny said:
yes, but statistically survival under a certain weight is rare.
I'm not sure I see what that has to do with anything. Statistically your chances of surviving Aids are low, should we just kill anyone who contracts it because they might not live?
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they chose to take that risk with intravenus drugs and sex.
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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Quote:
sneaky bunny said:
yes, the fetus cannot survive in the enviorment outside the womb being a sac of cells.
Actually, that's not correct. The term "fetus" is used to describe the unborn child from the 8th week until birth. So, there is a point at which a fetus is fully capable of surviving(in the sense that it can breathe and move normally) outside the womb.
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Yes it may not be able to survive with out its mother, but its organs can function well, all it needs is a caregiver. The fetus needs its mother to live and sustain life while its the womb, all is not properly developed.
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Quote:
sneaky bunny said:
they chose to take that risk with intravenus drugs and sex.
That's not the only way you can contract Aids.
Arthur Ashe contracted it from a blood transfusion, a perfectly normal medical procedure.
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winged creature said:
Yes it may not be able to survive with out its mother, but its organs can function well, all it needs is a caregiver. The fetus needs its mother to live and sustain life while its the womb, all is not properly developed.
See above post.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
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sneaky bunny said:
yes, the fetus cannot survive in the enviorment outside the womb being a sac of cells.
Actually, that's not correct. The term "fetus" is used to describe the unborn child from the 8th week until birth. So, there is a point at which a fetus is fully capable of surviving(in the sense that it can breathe and move normally) outside the womb.
lets put this in medical terms. When a child is born prematurely its not fully developed, it needs to be in the womb to survive or medical equipment. Thus it is not fully developed. If it didnt need this sort of assistance then it would be developed.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
sneaky bunny said:
they chose to take that risk with intravenus drugs and sex.
That's not the only way you can contract Aids.
Arthur Ashe contracted it from a blood transfusion, a perfectly normal medical procedure.
yes so did ryan white, but in a statistical manner the top ways in order are: sex, intravenus drugs, blood transfusion and from mother to child
plus testing has imporved on blood donations and transfusions sice the 80's
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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But, yet, the brain is developed. Does that mean that fully grown people who need assistance with dialysis and such should just be left to die as well?
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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thedoctor said:
But, yet, the brain is developed. Does that mean that fully grown people who need assistance with dialysis and such should just be left to die as well?
well you tell me, would you rather die from the cure or teh disease?
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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Cowgirl Jack said:
I'm temped to pull up all the shit I learned in Growth and Repro, but I'm too tired now.
In this case, this woman put her appearence before the child's life. If her life was in danger, this would be a totally different matter.
Short, sweet, and to the point. Thank you, CJ.
Let's get a couple things straight here. First of all, this isn't an abortion case. The abortion issue is a whole can of worms that I don't really want to get into here. This wasn't a "sac of cells". It was a baby, ready for delivery. The fact of the matter is that the woman was told that at least one of those babies was going to die if she didn't get a c-section. And she decided because 1) of cosmetic reasons; and/or 2) because she has a history of mental illness, to not have the c-section. Thus the baby died. Therefore the question is not "When is a baby not a baby?" or "Is abortion murder?" or "What is the cut-off for when a fetus can be aborted?" The question is "Did this woman, by refusing to act upon the advice of her doctor, have a hand (and, thus, responsibility) for the death of her child?" If the answer is "yes", then the next question is "Was this woman of sound mind when she made the decision, or is she insane?"
Based on the facts of the article, which doesn't seem to be too well written as it rambles and hops from point-to-point (or maybe I'm tired and read it wrong), it would seem TO ME that the woman DID ignore the advice of her doctor, for purely selfish reasons. Thus she DOES (at least) share in the responsibility for the baby's death. Now, whether or not she acted of her own rational volition or is a whack-job is what's in question.
Somehow I have the feeling that this will go trial and she'll plead insanity to avoid whatever the severe penalty is...
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Well, the people I know on dialysis are greatful for the procedure and the chance at longer life that it gives them, if their voices have any say in the matter.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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thedoctor said:
Well, the people I know on dialysis are greatful for the procedure and the chance at longer life that it gives them, if their voices have any say in the matter.
they have the ability to reason, an unborn sac of cells doesnt
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Quote:
winged creature said:
When a child is born prematurely its not fully developed
It's not "fully" developed even if it isn't born prematurely, and either way, in some cases, it can breathe without the use of medical equipment.
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If it didnt need this sort of assistance then it would be developed.
But now you've switched from "fully developed" to "developed". There's a lot of ambiguity here. Again, "doesn't need equipment' isn't the same thing as "fully developed".
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sneaky bunny said:
yes so did ryan white, but in a statistical manner the top ways in order are: sex, intravenus drugs, blood transfusion and from mother to child
plus testing has imporved on blood donations and transfusions sice the 80's
So? That's beside the point!
You're condemning everyone based on the majority. It doesn't matter if "rates are lower" or "percentages are higher", you're basically saying that anyone who contracts Aids is just reaping what they've sown.
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winged creature said:
they have the ability to reason, an unborn sac of cells doesnt
Wouldn't that just further my argument that it's wrong to deny them a choice just because they were never given the chance to make in the first place?
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
sneaky bunny said:
yes so did ryan white, but in a statistical manner the top ways in order are: sex, intravenus drugs, blood transfusion and from mother to child
plus testing has imporved on blood donations and transfusions sice the 80's
So? That's beside the point!
you brought the fucking point
but if you wanna suffer with slim disease, kaposis sarcoma, and 2 years of the liquid shits feel free.
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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Animalman said:
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Pariah said:
I don't know, if we were to use arguments as broad as you two are using, we might as well be arguing if NOT ejaculating your seed into a vagina would be considered murder.
No, it wouldn't, because again, a wad of semen doesn't have a heart that beats and a brain that thinks.
What I meant was that a wad of semen is also a bag of cells in development.
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I'm all for a women's right to have an abortion....but I think there has to be a cutoff point, and in my mind this woman had long since passed it.
OT Question: What would you think if this person merely wanted to have the baby without using C-section because she was paranoid and felt it would do more harm than good? If she thought it would be better for the baby that she have it on her own.
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That's fine. I just don't think she has the right to avoid taking responsibility for it even when she was well into pregnancy, then say she'd rather not have the scar.
I get your point about a wad of cells in development. I just think that there is a certain point where that wad of cells actually begins to function like a human being, and at that point it becomes murder to abort it.
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i agree with animalman. god i cant believe i typed that.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
That's fine. I just don't think she has the right to avoid taking responsibility for it even when she was well into pregnancy, then say she'd rather not have the scar.
I get your point about a wad of cells in development. I just think that there is a certain point where that wad of cells actually begins to function like a human being, and at that point it becomes murder to abort it.
Okay, gotcha.
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