RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Its oficial. spain is now new france.

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I never claimed to unquestioningly support the Bush administration. Hell, I don't think they're fighting this conflict effectively right now. What you're missing is that unlike yourself, not everyone creams their pants every time a new article is published on how the Bush administration committed some sort of new blunder.

I don't go around blasting people simply for disagreeing with Bush. I do my best not to take potshots at people simply because they don't think the same way I do. Give it a try sometime. It's a great way to make friends.

love or hate france, a victim is a victim, and you shouldn't revel in their death.

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whomod said:
Bottom line is that they dared question the Administration and therefore they reap the vitrol that inevatibly comes with doing that.

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somehow different than those who dare agree with the admin, "so sayeth the idealouge zealots."

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Dave said:
the United States was regarded by France and Germany, and the rest of NATO, as an attack on themselves.

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thats what the treaty says, tis true.

but whether or not it was acted upon in this instance is debatable, considering no such deployment was made. not that i fault france and/or germany for this -- its not like it was russia, or some other tangible force that could be confronted.

its certainly not as powerful to say, "well, we woulda"

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rexstardust said:
Fuck spain.
Fuck anyone that lets terrorists bully them around.

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to repeat my thoughts from here, leaving iraq is probably the natural reaction.

losing a few hundred loved ones in an enormous terrorist attack will, of course, cause a quick reaction to protect, and ensure safety. and no decision more quickly affirms immediate safety than leaving iraq.

you can't fault the decision.

but its that kinda decision that terrorists both expect and need to be succesful: spreading terror.

to have the resolve to maintain an offensive pressure on terrorists is both a little ballsy and a little crazy. its also incredibly difficult and, as seen with madrid, incredibly unpopular. that decision ensures more deaths, thus inviting criticism.

but it also ensures a chance at a better future. the only chance at defeating terrorism. the only chance at restoring peace from terrorism.

absolutely a tough choice, but, i feel, one with an easy answer.

would spain hold its resolve and stand strong against terrorism, it would make a blanket statement against all terrorist groups (be it the new found al qaeda targetting or the 40 previous years of ETA).

if al qaeda scores this "victory" over spain, its essentially a gain for ETA (via the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" property)

I actually support Basque independence, but that's another story.

It is very hard to fault them for pulling out, in the circumstances.

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thats what the treaty says, tis true.

but whether or not it was acted upon in this instance is debatable, considering no such deployment was made. not that i fault france and/or germany for this -- its not like it was russia, or some other tangible force that could be confronted.

its certainly not as powerful to say, "well, we woulda"

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Part of the terminology of all of this is wrong. Its not a "war" on terror. Wars are between nations, not nations and groups of people. Afghanistan, I guess, fits the bill, even though the guys were Saudis and there are the same ideolgues in various parts of the world.

But more to the point, the US won't allow NATO in Iraq, and didn't want NATO in Afghanistan. Its easy to say "we woulda" when the guy you're offering to help out is 12 foot tall and weighs 2 tonnes, and actually isn't a guy at all but is more of a velociraptor.

Dave's been tokin' up again.

But seriously, I get where you're coming from, Dave. I just happen to think that a complete withdrawal - especially as rapidly as Spain withdrew - sent the wrong message to whatever terrorists might be out there. They're saying that if you kill enough of their innocent civilians, they'll eventually give up and go home. I don't think that's what they intend to come across as at all, but it's just really bad timing.

If you think about it, we're being very humane in comparison to the opposition when it comes to fighting this war. So many steps are being taken to minimize collateral damage. The US could be using fuel-air explosives to incinerate any suspicious-looking group of people out in the desert. They could poison the groundwater of towns suspected to be harboring terrorists. Hell, they could just turn the whole country into a radioactive parking lot (although that'd never happen except in the absolute worst-case scenario). But they're not.

Just a side note.

You're a heartless bastard, PJP. I'd say you disgust me, but I already knew you were a single-minded idiot, so I'm not going to bother wasting emotions over you.

Yes, I believe that PJP did indeed cross the line there.

Sure, I myself don't cry over their deaths, nor do I cry when thousands of other people dies all over the world. Neither did I cry at 9/11.

And that's okay, nothing wrong with saying that you don't cry because someone unknown dies.

But PJP, c'mon, you must admit that your comments was completely uncalled for, and insensitive. You don't need to feel bad for the families who've lost their loved ones. But at least try to show some respect for the dead