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the G-man said:
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Dave said:
Its clear you are new here. Can you contribute something intelligent? I personally haven't called anyone a "retard" since I was 11.



Just out of curiosity, Dave, were you as offended/shocked/mildly annoyed/whatever by whomod calling a group of us, myself included, "fucktards" as you are with pam calling you a retard?



G-man - its a fair question. Mildly annoyed. I don't see the point, and think its counterproductive. You all have your own opinions. We all disagree vehemently on some of them. Name-calling distracts from the argument: it doesn't help whomod convince anyone he is correct, does it?

That doesn't mean I should give someone a free pass when they're exhibiting blatant bigotry, though, and so, when Dave has engaged in anti-gay bigotry, I don't. Dave might think this is being unfair to his point of view (and I admit to being surprised that he has the time and inclination to keep score). I think that with most of his opinions, ranging from Israel to abortion, I am happy to engage him without resorting to insults. On his bigotry towards gays, though.... Many white South Africans who were against aparthied did nothing and said nothing. In the face of discrimination, you need to show it for what it is and not tolerate it, otherwise it gets swept away in a facade of terminology.

I'll check out the rest of Dave's links later today. If I have otherwise been over the top, then I will apologise to him for it.


Dave says:
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But after seeing John McCain intervewed on a PBS panel discussion, my opinion has changed slightly, and I now see the point of apologizing.
McCain says: We're the Americans, and even though we don't have to, we demonstrate a higher standard because we do apologize. A terrible thing has occurred, and in making full disclosure, the right thing to do is apologize, whether or not Iraqis and the rest of the world appreciate the gesture.




Precisely so, and that is what I was getting at in my post to bsams. Americans do hold themselves to a higher moral standard, and this means that the fall is greater.

I was very distressed by reports recently of the mutilation of people by Iraqi guerillas, including the beheading (its not something I have been following in great detail in the past week, as I've been a little distracted by other things). I think this conduct is reprehensible: its intended to horrify the American public into pressuring the US government into pulling out of Iraq in the same way US forces pulled out of Somalia.

But, and by no means does this in any way excuse the conduct:

1. these people are ruthless and barbaric murderers. The US military is a trained professional army from a democratic country. One can be expected to torture, and the other should not, and must not.

2. these people are not brought up in a society where dignity and liberty of the individual is paramount.

3. these people are not citizens/public servants of a government which publishes a human rights violation list every year, highlighting governments which do not comply with basic human rights.

I'm loathed to draw a comparison. In ordinary circumstances it owuld be a stupidity to group them together. I'm sure it upsets the many decent people who have served in the US military with honour. But this conduct sullies their service, and it blackens the fine principles which are the foundations of your country.

bsams says,

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and i believe what will seprate us from the thugs is we will punish those who did this and not condone it.....




And he's absolutely correct, and its a credit to the US military that it works like that.

But the damage has been done. Dave TWB misses the point in my comment:

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This story reads like the US have overthrown one tortuous regime and replaced it with another.




and reads it as

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You say there is no difference between the U.S. military occupation, and the murderous tyranny of Saddam. That is an infuriatingly partisan and anti-American distortion.




Yes, it is both partisan and an anti-American distortion, but I don't say it. You've put up a strawman, offering an incorrect interpretation of what I've said for the purpose of furthering your own argument. Read it again. This story, about the torture of Iraqi nationals, does read like a torturous regime has been replaced by another - and this is what people in the Middle East are reading. The reality is no doubt different to how this is being played in the Middle Eastern press.

And now go and read what I said to bsams in reposnse to whether he asked if I really believed it. While the torture of prisoners is clearly systemic, I don't think its a government policy.

The real world calls, and so I'll leave it there for now.

Pimping my site, again.

http://www.worldcomicbookreview.com