|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4
Regenerated 15000+ posts
|
|
Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4 |
Watchmen did not have a graphic, prolonged rape scene in the same way as Dr Light's rape of Sue Dibney was prolonged - Dave
I respect your opinion.
However...
1) The Watchmen rape scene was around eleven panels (from set-up to Hooded Justice finding them). Sue Dibney's rape scene was eight panels (from set-up to Flash finding them). Sue's was an integral part of the plot. The Watchmen one was merely to show us what a sick fuck the Comedian had been. Therefore, I disagree with your above point.
2) Sue Dibney's rape was the motive for their "mind-wiping" plot, and, therefore, was the believed motive for Dr. Light's revenge against Sue. I don't find it at all offensive towards women in general, as this is a somewhat complex murder mystery, and motives for actions and reactions must be examined.
3) The fact that 90% of the superhero characters are male generally leads to the conclusion that, if a villian is going to strike them by hurting/killing one of their loved ones, that loved one is going to be a female. That is, until DC gets off its conservative trip and allows homosexual characters in the same light as Midnighter and Apollo. Then, striking loved ones can be raping their life-partner (i.e. Authority...which I agree, was censored, and therefore can only generally be implied in hindsight...same with Killing Joke).
4) I believe that, while comics are indeed an escapist medium, this is merely a push to expand that envelope and use comic books, and superheroes, as a medium to express ideas, stories, and sophisticated drama. It's not like IC is happening in the Teen Titans or JLA mainstream titles. It is its own series.
5) Methinks, given past rants on your part, that rape may be a sensitive issue with you, personally. If so, then all the facts in the world aren't going to persuade you. And, even still, we all have our personal sensitivities, so, it's understandable.
Just my .02
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
I have no particular sensitivities to rape. I have no real problem with films or books which depict rape as part of a serious plot. I am conscious that superhero comics are aimed at a teenaged male audience.
Here is another fantasy medium for teenaged boys: rap.
Most west coast rap videos have guys in expensive clothes, driving expensive cars, surrounded by beautiful available women. Teenaged boys watch this shit and engage in a fantasy involving hero worship.
But you'll not see a rap video with a simulated rape. You'll see bump and grind dancing, but no scene where a guy pins down a girl and has sex with her against her will.
So here we have DC publishing a comic involving its mainstream characters. JLAdventures features many of the same characters, aimed at small kids. Some 10 year old wonders into a comic shop and decides to buy the issue with Hawkman and Green Arrow on the cover, because he's seen them on TV. (He might also buy it because he thinks Zatanna's tits are drawn great.) Then, he's reading a page with a graphic rape. I wouldn't want my 10 year old to read that.
Sure, that kid might just as easily have picked up Watchmen, you may say. But not really "just as easily": Watchmen isn't on Saturday mornings or whenever, aimed at the kid market. DC's main characters are, and the comics to a greater or lesser extent tie into the TV series.
I really don't like censorship of anything. I think people should be able to express themselves as they see fit. I probably wouldn't have been so bothered by this if it was in the pages of a Vertigo comic - lets face it, I'm reading Wanted, which has much more graphic violence and explicit references to rape, and really enjoying it. But Wanted doesn't have the characters who appear on kid's TV.
Your other point, that 90% of characters in comics are male, simply means that there are more male targets than female targets to kill and rape in the DCU, doesn't it? From a plotting perspective, isn't it more directly hurtful and humiliating to be raped yourself, than have your love one raped? The story would have had more impact if one of the male characters had been raped - the Atom, Elongated Man, Green Arrow, or whoever. Dr Light would have been just as, if not more bad-ass (pardon the pun) if he had raped a hero, as opposed to a wife of a hero. But instead, a female character gets it, again - one of the 10%, assuming your numbers are correct.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1 |
I still feel your arguements aren't that strong. Honestly, I don't really think DC is targeting teenage males for their readership. They seem to be going for older readers with more disposable income. Hence all the use of the Silver Age to enthrall customers.
Secondly, you feel that the subject of rape is too much for a superhero book; but then you say that you wouldn't mind had it been a male who had been raped. How is one acceptable and not the other?
It seems to me that you're just flipping through the books and not reading them. As I have pointed out before, both times that Sue was attacked in the series, she was somewhere where everyone thought she'd be safe. These events are supposed to be big and have a real impact on the DCU and the heroes themselves. With the number of superhero resurrections that DC has had (Superman, Green Arrow, Hawkman, soon to be Hal Jordan, etc., etc.), using the ones nearest the heroes makes more sense. And, as we've pointed out time and time again, most of the heroes in the DCU are men; so women are going to be the most likely candidates for attacks. I get the feeling that most of your arguements are just self-justifications for not wanting to like superhero books.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377 |
I have to agree with everybody: WE NEED MORE GRAPHICLY DEPICTED ANAL RAPE OF THE MALE SUPER-HEROS IN OUR COMICS!!!!! I suggest we start an e-mail campaign to DC on this matter right away. Rob can be our gay spokesperson. I'm sure once everybody gets a poke at him in the offices they'll concede to our demands and a certain Boy Wonder will be guest-starring in almost every DC comic here on out and forever shown pantsless...and rubbing his sore ass! You think Tim's Dad was pissed before? Wait until he finds out his son is the JLA's personal pin cushion!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4
Regenerated 15000+ posts
|
|
Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4 |
Quote:
Dave said:
I am conscious that superhero comics are aimed at a teenaged male audience.
Here is another fantasy medium for teenaged boys: rap.
Most west coast rap videos have guys in expensive clothes, driving expensive cars, surrounded by beautiful available women. Teenaged boys watch this shit and engage in a fantasy involving hero worship.
But you'll not see a rap video with a simulated rape. You'll see bump and grind dancing, but no scene where a guy pins down a girl and has sex with her against her will.
No, instead, rap videos focus on guns and drugs. Fictional rape or actual social problem...which is the lesser of two evils? But, in this comparison, are you saying that if some teenager reads IC he'll be more prone to raping a girl/guy? Because, that's the line of logic I'm drawing from this.
So here we have DC publishing a comic involving its mainstream characters. JLAdventures features many of the same characters, aimed at small kids. Some 10 year old wonders into a comic shop and decides to buy the issue with Hawkman and Green Arrow on the cover, because he's seen them on TV. (He might also buy it because he thinks Zatanna's tits are drawn great.) Then, he's reading a page with a graphic rape. I wouldn't want my 10 year old to read that.
So, is your argument that comic shop owners and, in this, the publishers, are responsible for monitoring and mothering what children should and will read? And didn't you say that comic books are aimed at teenagers?
Sure, that kid might just as easily have picked up Watchmen, you may say. But not really "just as easily": Watchmen isn't on Saturday mornings or whenever, aimed at the kid market. DC's main characters are, and the comics to a greater or lesser extent tie into the TV series.
Certainly. That's what JLAdventures and Teen Titans Go! are for. The children. Is it fair that the superhero medium be designated to only what is appropriate for ten year olds? Why should JLAdventures and the like even exist then? Why isn't there room for both?
I really don't like censorship of anything. I think people should be able to express themselves as they see fit. I probably wouldn't have been so bothered by this if it was in the pages of a Vertigo comic - lets face it, I'm reading Wanted, which has much more graphic violence and explicit references to rape, and really enjoying it. But Wanted doesn't have the characters who appear on kid's TV.
But, aren't we just dancing around the actual fantasy of this argument? That being children. Believe what you want, but, ten years olds, twelve year olds, teenagers...they're reading the same stuff you are. Kids nowadays don't like or enjoy superheroes. They read whatever is considered "cool" by their peers. Superman isn't as cool as The Sopranos or 100 Bullets. Sure, some will read X-Men, maybe some Batman, and whatever [INSERT COMIC SUPERSTAR HERE] is writing/drawing at the moment. But...Wanted, Vertigo...they read this stuff, too. Comic shop guy won't sell it to them, there's always E-Bay. Or their friends at school. Whatever.
So, it's a phallacy to setup an idea that there is some innocent ten-year-old out there who might be permanently scarred over an ambiguous rape scene in IC. These guys are reading Ennis blow people's brains out in Punisher or Luke get him some booty in the Cage MAX.
Your other point, that 90% of characters in comics are male, simply means that there are more male targets than female targets to kill and rape in the DCU, doesn't it? From a plotting perspective, isn't it more directly hurtful and humiliating to be raped yourself, than have your love one raped? The story would have had more impact if one of the male characters had been raped - the Atom, Elongated Man, Green Arrow, or whoever. Dr Light would have been just as, if not more bad-ass (pardon the pun) if he had raped a hero, as opposed to a wife of a hero. But instead, a female character gets it, again - one of the 10%, assuming your numbers are correct.
So, male rape is preferable to female rape? Isn't the crux of your argument that rape in a superhero comic is bad, no matter what?
And, of course, my "stats" were a generalization. However, I'm pretty sure that it is a fact that well over half of the DCU is male. Someone may correct me on that. But, it sounds about right...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
OK, lets go another round on this. I'm not doing a very good job of convincing anyone here. I'll try it again. Part of my problem is that I'm muddling a number of different arguments, so to try and crystalise these, I'll divide them up:
Argument One: "Won't somebody think of the children?"
1. JLAdventures targets kids who are eleven or twelve or less.
2. The same characters who appear in that title appear in this story.
3. Parents receive no warning from the cover of IC3 that it contains the depiction of a graphic rape.
4. The situation arises that very young kids will read a story depicting a graphic rape.
DC recently came across this with Outsiders. A lot of young kids picked up the book, as a follow on from Titans. Outsiders had a demonic character referring to women as "bitches". A lot of parents were mad about it, and DC was forced to apologise and say that they wuld rein in their editors.
I don't put the burden of censorship on comic book stores. Its not their place to impose an expression of morality on their readers. If DC want to publish something like this using characters that appear in kid's cartoons, then they should put an "adult material" label on the front. Knowing the vagaries of the 14 year old male mind, it'd probably make the damn thing sell better, anyway.
Argument 2: "Rape is cool, dude"
1. DC sells a genre of comics which appeal to adolescent male fantasies.
2. DC depicts a woman getting raped in one of those superhero comics.
3. DC thereby shows rape as suitable subject matter for adolescent fantasy.
Again, take it out of mainstream DC, which is aimed at adolescent fantasy. Put it in Vertigo, aimed at adult readers. I wouldn't care in those circumstances. As a rule, you know what you're getting with a Vertigo title: it is no doubt the case that kids are reading Preacher, Wanted or whatever, but the understanding for these titles is that they are aimed at adult audiences. Adults (generally speaking) should be able to enjoy a comic without thinking that it sets the boundaries of behaviour in relation to treatment of women.
Argument 3: "Fuck Ralph"
1. IC2 depicts a woman getting raped
2. We assume that the rape was essential to the plot.
3. IC2 should have depicted a male character raped instead.
Purely for the purposes of debate on this argument, I assume that a rape should have been depicted to further the plot.
Women get the short sharp end of the stick in comics, and it was stuff like this which caused the Women in Refridgerators school of thought. A lot of violence occurs against women in this fantasy medium. Everything else in comics is a fantasy - it means that violence against women joins in on the fantasy.
The counter-argument here is that the best way of causing pain to a hero is to attack his female loved ones. I don't buy this at all. Of course such conduct angers or causes pain to the relative of a victim of rape. But if a writer wants to anger, humiliate, or cause pain to a hero, then why not have the hero raped, and not the hero's female relative?
Why a woman, when there are men? The intention of the rape is to show Dr Light as a sick and twisted individual. That could have been more easily done with a hero. Sue Dibny's appearance on the satellite was staged. It would have been more likely for one of the heroes to be sitting there on monitor duty.
So why a woman? One of the posters - I think at Newsrama - said that it demostrates a way of thinking that women are property. The analogue he used was that if your boss is picking on you at work, you run your car keys down the side of his BMW. Dr Light was depicted as wanting revenge on the JLA. He scratched their property.
If it had been the silver age Steve Trevor up there on the satellite, and he had been raped, then the same argument would follow. But it wasn't Steve Trevor - it was a woman.
Argument Four: "Its plot driven"
Finally, lets look at Watchmen again. I was thinking about this last night. Working backwards, Dr Manhattan's decision to return to the Earth was based upon his realisation that human life was chaotic terrain and worthy of preservation and study. Silk Spectre's life was chaotic terrain because, amongst other things, she was the daughter of the Comedian and the original Silk Spectre. She works this out when she thinks about the Comedian's comment (amongst others) that he raped her mother "Only once." The comedian did rape the original Silk Spectre, but only once - the second time they had sex, it was by consent, and she conceived her daughter. So was the rape necessary to this plot (other than merely to show Comedian as a bad ass)? I think so. There might have been other ways to reach that point, but this was undeniably clever.
Was Dr Light's rape of Sue clever? Not really. It was simply meant to shock readers, and generate hype. (With Wanted, we expect this - but even then, Wesley is not shown raping people - he just mentions it. We don't expect it in a JLA comic, going again back to my first argument).
Since I've spent some time articulating this, I might actually cut and paste it and send it in a letter to DC. I wouldn't ordinarily do this (as I said, I'm not a fan of censorship, and I feel like a bit of a wanker even suggesting it), but I'm curious to see what the official response might be.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
|
|
living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Finally, lets look at Watchmen again. I was thinking about this last night. Working backwards, Dr Manhattan's decision to return to the Earth was based upon his realisation that human life was chaotic terrain and worthy of preservation and study. Silk Spectre's life was chaotic terrain because, amongst other things, she was the daughter of the Comedian and the original Silk Spectre. She works this out when she thinks about the Comedian's comment (amongst others) that he raped her mother "Only once." The comedian did rape the original Silk Spectre, but only once - the second time they had sex, it was by consent, and she conceived her daughter. So was the rape necessary to this plot (other than merely to show Comedian as a bad ass)? I think so. There might have been other ways to reach that point, but this was undeniably clever.
But couldn't the argument be made here that this example also shows rape as being potentially appealing to the adolescent male readership? The rationalization of the Comedian raping her mother "only once," could be seen to infer that rape is a justifiable way to begin a relationship as not only did Comedian and the original Silk Spectre then have consentual sex, but also implies that both mother and daughter forgave him afterwards?
"Oh, it's ok, he only did it once. After that it was consentual."  WTF???
That doesn't wash with me.
(I should really read Watchmen again. . .)
And if you think adolescent males don't have access to Watchmen or Vertigo books, you're fooling yourself. In fact, videogames such as Grand Theft Auto and Manhunt (and several more) are readily available to kids and quite a lot more graphic and explicit than anything seen in ID Crisis.
I've said in the ID Crisis threads before, yes they should have a mature readers label on these books. But even then, kids will still get their hands on them if they want to. You put in Vertigo, they can still get it. I was buying Vertigo books as a teen (and stuff a lot more graphic, as well).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
|
|
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353 |
As for IC promoting an "anti-woman message", my friend Nicole happens to think that Identity Crisis is currently the best written book out there.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1 |
Dave, I still say you're wrong. DC has been creating and marketing books towards older audiences for years for the disposable income and the decreaseing young fanbase. So your arguement that DC markets to adolescent male fantasies just doesn't hold water.
So violence against women is wrong, but violence against men isn't. All you've thrown out is arguements using a double standard. You also ignore the fact that Metzler built up Sue as a character the reader cares about before doing all of this. It doesn't say that raping women is acceptable. If anything, it shows that it's a horrible act that will wind up being punished harshly.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
I think Dave's right in something: if there's a somewhat explicit rape scene in the comic, it should have a warning. At least that one issue should. It's impossible that DC didn't think of this... and the fact that they didn't include a warning anyway proves that they are indeed targetting the book to teenagers. Now, that's DC. The company. Based only on the interviews with him I've read, I don't think Brad Meltzer is the kind of writer that would pull something like that. He supplied DC a story, they marketted it as they saw fit (for example: all the hype surrounding who would bite the dust in the first issue, which was stupid because it led some people, who obviously hadn't read any of the Meltzer interviews, to get the wrong idea about the book, leading to the "they killed a minor character = IC is lame" reactions).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
Grimm said:
Quote:
Finally, lets look at Watchmen again. I was thinking about this last night. Working backwards, Dr Manhattan's decision to return to the Earth was based upon his realisation that human life was chaotic terrain and worthy of preservation and study. Silk Spectre's life was chaotic terrain because, amongst other things, she was the daughter of the Comedian and the original Silk Spectre. She works this out when she thinks about the Comedian's comment (amongst others) that he raped her mother "Only once." The comedian did rape the original Silk Spectre, but only once - the second time they had sex, it was by consent, and she conceived her daughter. So was the rape necessary to this plot (other than merely to show Comedian as a bad ass)? I think so. There might have been other ways to reach that point, but this was undeniably clever.
But couldn't the argument be made here that this example also shows rape as being potentially appealing to the adolescent male readership? The rationalization of the Comedian raping her mother "only once," could be seen to infer that rape is a justifiable way to begin a relationship as not only did Comedian and the original Silk Spectre then have consentual sex, but also implies that both mother and daughter forgave him afterwards?
"Oh, it's ok, he only did it once. After that it was consentual." WTF???
No, that's not my point. The consensual act of sex doesn't somehow erase the rape, or justify it.
This fourth argument deals with the point that the rape was essential to the plot. For Watchmen, it was - or at least, it had some other foundation than mere shock value. With IC, the rape was mere shock value. Dr Light could have incinerated Superman with red sun radiation, and be lobotomised as a consequence. My point is that the rape served no real plot-related purpose that could nto have been substituted by another scenario.
Quote:
And if you think adolescent males don't have access to Watchmen or Vertigo books, you're fooling yourself. In fact, videogames such as Grand Theft Auto and Manhunt (and several more) are readily available to kids and quite a lot more graphic and explicit than anything seen in ID Crisis.
I've said in the ID Crisis threads before, yes they should have a mature readers label on these books. But even then, kids will still get their hands on them if they want to. You put in Vertigo, they can still get it. I was buying Vertigo books as a teen (and stuff a lot more graphic, as well).
You mix two of my arguments. The first argument is that really young kids (younger than horny teenage boys) will be induced to buy IC because of the shared characters with JLAdventures.
The second argument is that horny teenage boys read JLA as a fantasy, and now rape has become part of the heroic fantasy. Sure, they might read Preacher, for example, but that is an adult comic without the same quality of heroic fantasy. Preacher isn't a fantasy in the same way: Jesse Custer doesn't have huge muscles, fly, and be in a team filled with women with jutting breasts. Jesse has explicit sex, but in the context of an adult fantasy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Dave, I still say you're wrong. DC has been creating and marketing books towards older audiences for years for the disposable income and the decreaseing young fanbase. So your arguement that DC markets to adolescent male fantasies just doesn't hold water.
On the contrary, DC has in recent years been marketing its main characters to a very young audience, with the Adventures stories.
DC has also tried to appeal to older audiences through Vertigo, and obvious I'm very cool with that.
But you'll never see the Justice League in a Vertigo comic.
Yet, now the Justice League, without warning, are in a comic with a graphic rape scene.
What you are saying, I think, is that DC no longer push its mainstream stuff (ie not Vertigo, not Adventures) on horny teenage boys. The demographic has shifted upwards. That still means they're publishing adolescent fantasies, though, just that not all of the readers engaging in the adolescent fantasies are horny teenage boys. It still means the rape is pitched as an adolescent fantasy.
Quote:
So violence against women is wrong, but violence against men isn't. All you've thrown out is arguements using a double standard. You also ignore the fact that Metzler built up Sue as a character the reader cares about before doing all of this. It doesn't say that raping women is acceptable. If anything, it shows that it's a horrible act that will wind up being punished harshly.
No, you missed my point. My point in my third argument is that if a rape was essential to the plot, why not rape a man for a change? Why do women always receive the violence in superhero comics?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think Dave's right in something: if there's a somewhat explicit rape scene in the comic, it should have a warning.
Yeah, I think that would have solved everything I have a problem with.
Incidentally, I'm grateful we're all having a sensible and rational debate about this, without getting mad or flaming each other. That's very cool.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
|
|
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353 |
Quote:
LLance said:
I have to agree with everybody: WE NEED MORE GRAPHICLY DEPICTED ANAL RAPE OF THE MALE SUPER-HEROS IN OUR COMICS!!!!! I suggest we start an e-mail campaign to DC on this matter right away. Rob can be our gay spokesperson. I'm sure once everybody gets a poke at him in the offices they'll concede to our demands and a certain Boy Wonder will be guest-starring in almost every DC comic here on out and forever shown pantsless...and rubbing his sore ass! You think Tim's Dad was pissed before? Wait until he finds out his son is the JLA's personal pin cushion!
See, Dave, THIS is way a man didn't get raped in Identity Crisis. Because it wouldn't be taken seriously.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,062
1000+ posts
|
|
1000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,062 |
Quote:
King Snarf said:
Quote:
LLance said:
I have to agree with everybody: WE NEED MORE GRAPHICLY DEPICTED ANAL RAPE OF THE MALE SUPER-HEROS IN OUR COMICS!!!!! I suggest we start an e-mail campaign to DC on this matter right away. Rob can be our gay spokesperson. I'm sure once everybody gets a poke at him in the offices they'll concede to our demands and a certain Boy Wonder will be guest-starring in almost every DC comic here on out and forever shown pantsless...and rubbing his sore ass! You think Tim's Dad was pissed before? Wait until he finds out his son is the JLA's personal pin cushion!
See, Dave, THIS is way a man didn't get raped in Identity Crisis. Because it wouldn't be taken seriously.
Good point.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4
Regenerated 15000+ posts
|
|
Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4 |
Quote:
Dave said:
But you'll never see the Justice League in a Vertigo comic.
Yet, now the Justice League, without warning, are in a comic with a graphic rape scene.
You keep referring to it as a "graphic rape scene".
Three questions:
1) Have you actually read the issue we are talking about? Not skim it, or see promo scenes online, but actually read the issue itself?
2) When, in your definition, is a rape scene labeled as "graphic"? What is a "graphic rape scene" by your definition?
3) Could the chance of you just having another child be at all influencing your viewpoint on all of this? Even a little?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Dave said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think Dave's right in something: if there's a somewhat explicit rape scene in the comic, it should have a warning.
Yeah, I think that would have solved everything I have a problem with.
I don't think it can be denied that DC should have had a warning label. They seem to be screwing this shit up more and more lately.
Quote:
Dave said:
Incidentally, I'm grateful we're all having a sensible and rational debate about this, without getting mad or flaming each other. That's very cool.
Shut your pie hole, you big dookie head! 
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587
7500+ posts
|
|
7500+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587 |
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Quote:
Dave said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think Dave's right in something: if there's a somewhat explicit rape scene in the comic, it should have a warning.
Yeah, I think that would have solved everything I have a problem with.
I don't think it can be denied that DC should have had a warning label. They seem to be screwing this shit up more and more lately.
The guy who owns the shop I go to loves to put little post-it notes on the covers to some books with notes like "Great issue, "Kevin Smith writes," or some other helpful note to sell the book. For Identity Crisis #2, he slapped a note that said "Mature Readers." I guess some of the retailers are doing their part.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
Was the rape scene really that explicit?
Light grabs sue, there's a lot of close ups, including of trembling hands, and we later see Sue has ripped pants.
Light makes some comments about "my date with Sue dibny" and some funny faces.
There's no nudity, and little other dialogue.
I'm not saying I'd want a five year old reading this book, but it seems like it not much more explicit than, say PG13.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
|
|
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353 |
I agree with G-man. It's all implied. While certainly not appropriate for the real young kids, it's certainly not like some of the stuff we see in the Vertigo comics.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4
Regenerated 15000+ posts
|
|
Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4 |
You just wanted to the 100th post...admit it....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587
7500+ posts
|
|
7500+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377 |
Quote:
King Snarf said:
Quote:
LLance said:
I have to agree with everybody: WE NEED MORE GRAPHICLY DEPICTED ANAL RAPE OF THE MALE SUPER-HEROS IN OUR COMICS!!!!! I suggest we start an e-mail campaign to DC on this matter right away. Rob can be our gay spokesperson. I'm sure once everybody gets a poke at him in the offices they'll concede to our demands and a certain Boy Wonder will be guest-starring in almost every DC comic here on out and forever shown pantsless...and rubbing his sore ass! You think Tim's Dad was pissed before? Wait until he finds out his son is the JLA's personal pin cushion!
See, Dave, THIS is way a man didn't get raped in Identity Crisis. Because it wouldn't be taken seriously.
Gee whiz Snarfie! Just because
ol Batty Ears has been sodomizing three different Boy Wonders since the early 1940's off panel doesn't mean nobody doesn't take it seriously!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,884 Likes: 18
Son of Anarchist 15000+ posts
|
|
Son of Anarchist 15000+ posts
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,884 Likes: 18 |
it wasn't rape if it was in the name of research.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,377 |
...and Bats really likes to dig deep  into his research!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
Dave said:
But you'll never see the Justice League in a Vertigo comic.
Yet, now the Justice League, without warning, are in a comic with a graphic rape scene.
You keep referring to it as a "graphic rape scene".
Three questions:
1) Have you actually read the issue we are talking about? Not skim it, or see promo scenes online, but actually read the issue itself?
2) When, in your definition, is a rape scene labeled as "graphic"? What is a "graphic rape scene" by your definition?
3) Could the chance of you just having another child be at all influencing your viewpoint on all of this? Even a little?
1. I spent 10 minutes reading it in a comic shop, much to the consternation of the owner. And trust me when I say I read very fast.
2. Sue's shredded seat of her trousers indicate a violent act, and the fact that Light's hands change position during the act over the course of three panels to indicate a prolonged act, is graphic in my view. You don't need spurting sperm to be graphic, although perhaps the term "evocative" is more suitable.
3. No. Setting aside the fact you're attacking the debater, not the debater's argument, my second daughter right now bears more resemblance to a tree frog then a female human. A cute tree frog, but still a tree frog. And my older daughter is a extremely cute blonde chimpanzee, with table manners to match. I adore them both, but they're not really female humans yet. When you have kids one day, you'll find out the truth of this... You'd be hitting closer to home if you made this point when my kids are in their teens.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,062
1000+ posts
|
|
1000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,062 |
Quote:
Dave said:
...my second daughter right now bears more resemblance to a tree frog then a female human. A cute tree frog, but still a tree frog. And my older daughter is a extremely cute blonde chimpanzee, with table manners to match...
I hope to God those were metaphors.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 Likes: 1 |
It's that lawyer DNA. It's mutating the species.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587
7500+ posts
|
|
7500+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Dave said:
But you'll never see the Justice League in a Vertigo comic.
Just to be anal, I should probably point out that the JL, or members thereof, appeared a couple of times in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
|
|
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
And in Moore's Swamp Thing too, but to be even more anal in return, Vertigo didn't exist yet when those issues first came out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4
Regenerated 15000+ posts
|
|
Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4 |
Quote:
Pro said:
3) Could the chance of you just having another child be at all influencing your viewpoint on all of this? Even a little?
Quote:
Dave replied
3. No. Setting aside the fact you're attacking the debater, not the debater's argument,
No, no, silly attorney! I'm not "attacking" anything. I was merely asking three questions to help me better understand your stance on this issue. Psychologically, the advent of children can change a person's viewpoint on many things in life, as you can no doubt attest. It was only as I originally stated: just questions.
Quote:
my second daughter right now bears more resemblance to a tree frog then a female human. A cute tree frog, but still a tree frog. And my older daughter is a extremely cute blonde chimpanzee, with table manners to match. I adore them both, but they're not really female humans yet. When you have kids one day, you'll find out the truth of this...
My sister would agree with you. One child + Terrible Two's = 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392
[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
|
|
[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392 |
Quote:
Glacier16 said:
IDENTITY CRISIS #6 (of 7)
Written by Brad Meltzer
Art by Rags Morales & Michael Bair
Cover by Michael Turner
The thrill-packed 7-issue miniseries by best-selling author Brad Meltzer and artists extraordinaire Rags Morales & Michael Bair builds to December’s unbelievable finale!
From the very start, he's been on the case and sifting through clues. No one knows better what it’s like to lose someone you love. He's the World’s Greatest Detective. Now it’s time for Batman to prove it.
On sale Nov 10 40 pages $3.95 US
I'd say it is possible, though I think Spoiler bites it in War Games and that may be the "loss" they are talking about.
I'd hate to point out the obvious, but the loss to Batman mentioned in the short description happened a long time ago, back when little Bruce was about 8 years old...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392
[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
|
|
[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392 |
I think the name of the series -- Identity Crisis -- has something to do with the identity of the serial killer... though I'm not sure what it could be.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587
7500+ posts
|
|
7500+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
|
|
living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Quote:
Glacier16 said:
IDENTITY CRISIS #6 (of 7)
Written by Brad Meltzer
Art by Rags Morales & Michael Bair
Cover by Michael Turner
The thrill-packed 7-issue miniseries by best-selling author Brad Meltzer and artists extraordinaire Rags Morales & Michael Bair builds to December’s unbelievable finale!
From the very start, he's been on the case and sifting through clues. No one knows better what it’s like to lose someone you love. He's the World’s Greatest Detective. Now it’s time for Batman to prove it.
On sale Nov 10 40 pages $3.95 US
I'd say it is possible, though I think Spoiler bites it in War Games and that may be the "loss" they are talking about.
I'd hate to point out the obvious, but the loss to Batman mentioned in the short description happened a long time ago, back when little Bruce was about 8 years old...
Uh, Trust, I believe this is what Glacier's talking about:
Quote:
ROBIN #132
Written by Bill Willingham
Art and cover by Damion Scott
Part 1 of the 4-part ROBIN/BATGIRL crossover “Fresh Blood,” featuring the return of artist Damion Scott! Robin is coping with crippling personal losses, and how he deals with these heartaches will send him in an unexpected direction…and into the path of the stone-fisted Batgirl!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
|
|
living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
just another theory:
Dr. Moon is seen with Phobia in the first issue. Merlyn talks about how people seen with them keep vanishing and how Signalman's been missing for months.
Dr. Moon's M.O. is messing with people's heads/personalities. (Somebody mentioned that story where he and the Joker turned Catwoman evil again, good story) (This is not that different from what we saw the JLA doing to Dr. Light,btw.) With Phobia's ability to control people's emotions, it would no doubt be much easier for him (them?) to alter personalities.
Are they brainwashing people to go out and do these killings? Signalman? Martin Stein? Bat-Mite? Franta?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,305
kung-fu treachery 5000+ posts
|
|
kung-fu treachery 5000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,305 |
Quote:
Uh, Trust, I believe this is what Glacier's talking about:
Yup. Possibly Tim's dad in IC and Spoiler in War Games. Then again, who knows.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587
7500+ posts
|
|
7500+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,587 |
Quote:
Disco Steve said:
Superman did it.
Superman overhears the conversation among the old JLAers. He looks stern and murderous. He's gonna crush Green Arrow's head like a melon before his narration can notice.
He moves at super-speed, so sensors would not notice him enter the Dibny household.
Superman has heat vision. He started the fire. I know, you're thinking "but they were flames, not heat vision. He could as easily sprayed some gasoline and heat visioned it to create a fire to cover his tracks. This is a man that has more time to think than Batman, as he is superfast.
Also, Superman is the only guy with a tear coming from his eyes on the cover of Identity Crisis issue #1. Isn't that odd to anyone? He's putting up an act, and overdoing it a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
