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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Chewy, you said what directions you wouldn't like the team to take, but not which ones you'd like. I understand you're willing to go with the general consensus, but I think we all are. So... what would you enjoy the most? You're vote is as important as any other.
That's a fair request, Mxy - thus requiring a fair response.
To be honest, I have no set 'vision' for the future of Vanguard International. Unlike a lot of posters on this board (whether they're still writing or not), I don't have any grandiose plans for the future or anything like that. However, I have some ideas I'll put on the floor:
1.) Adventurers - Vanguard becomes a team of adventurers, travelling the world in search of mystery and excitement. Crazy stuff. Finding Atlantis. Searching for lost civilizations in the Amazon rainforests. Tomb raiding in Egyptian pyramids. Something that would give the writers a chance to just have fun with the stories again, rather than becoming bogged down by continuity.*
2.) Sheer epic - Vanguard starts tackling bigger problems. Much bigger. I'm talking Antarctica-level problems. Alien invasions. Extra-dimensional conquerors. Friggin' huge sea monsters. If it's a friggin' big thing, Vanguard will take care of it... but not with the backing of the UN. I really would rather not explore that option. (See *)
3.) Security detail - Vanguard becomes a group of "heroes for hire" as a subsidiary of Sandcrawler Security in San Fransisco. It would allow for a much smaller group orientation and would allow for travel across the United States to various clients of Grissom's who are having problems with... whatever. Essentially, the opposite of #2.
Now, these are just the ideas I've had. Obviously (or not), I've put the most thought into #1 as that's personally what I'd like to pursue. I think there are a lot of great possibilities there. However, there's a strong case for that method of story-telling being far too similar to VE, which I can accept and will abandon if that is the case.
I don't have as much interest in the other two, but would be able to write them if need be.
I like what Grimm said the other night in the chat we had: if someone wants to do something specific - story-wise - we should be able to compromise and find a way to make it work. I'm willing to compromise on how we get there but am not willing to compromise on the telling of a good story. That should always be paramount - as it definitely is in my own mind.
I'm tired and I'm not really sure if I'm making sense right now, so I'm gonna shut up and go to bed before I offend someone or hurt myself.
G'night.
*...which, we can never escape. Each attempt just adds more continuity to the pile and it becomes some vicious cycle. One or two posters will say, "Hey, remember this?!" and the next thing you know, we've written ourselves into a hole. That's what's happened now and, I feel, what will continue to happen if Vanguard becomes Strikeforce. Just my opinion.
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Well, I've never considered the specifics of Vanguard taking over the Strikeforce, but now that I think about it, it does make sense that it should have no connections with the past team: not the name, not the space station, not the same SF members (even as reserves), not the same UN liason, no nothing. I still think the team should be backed by UN, though, since that would give us more freedom.
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Chewy, I don't know if you are referring to me when you talked about posters with grandiose plans for the future.... if that is the case, allow me to correct your assumption.
It's true that I and TTT are writing a story set in the future of Vanguard, but that is it... just a STORY. An Elseworld story, as anything set in the future should be. That's what interest me now... telling stories, with a beginning, a middle section and a conclusion. That's the main reason, aside immediate circumstances, that had me retiring Euro and starting a new series, where the focus is not over characters, but over the story.
I had never grandiose plans for the future of the collective written Vanguard, at last since the third of fourth month after we started this thing. I have had always a preference for creating a team of superheroes, because I would be interested into seeing these metahumans delving with great scale tragedies... not aliens or marine monsters, but terrorism, media-manipulators, famine, war.
Due to the different cultural backgrounds, probably that would be impossible... and recently I embraced TTT's vision of Vanguard as adventurers... exactly what you suggests as your preferred setting for the "new" Vanguard. Our last story, imperfect or plainly bad as it was, was aiming right in that direction. I must add that today, I see much difficult over that kind of "flavour" for our team, as it, again, would bring the accent over the story instead of the soap, and I don't think it's what our group of posters is being equipped (and interested) for.
Mxy's idea, anyway it is implemented (with or without UN founds and backing, with or without Strikeforce roots) makes the continuity impact minimum (a group of people over a satellite or the moon or a secret base just interacts among themselves) and allows for a lot of big fights with just a minimum of story needs. Vanguard could be affiliated to Nato, for example, to cut the ties for any previously established continuity with UN, or be privately founded or they could found their own Paragon. I think an association with a body of governments simplify the need for clearance for flights, interaction with police forces and or military ones and such, but they are really just details and matters just if we give them importance, else we don't even have to care.
I must also point out that the experiment of the Strikeforce, although very short lived, of allowing the creation and use of many characters for each poster, it's not as stupid or bad or heretical as it could sound. Having many characters makes them a lot less central to the Universe, and brings attention over the story instead of the soap opera, keeping continuity to build up much slower.
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I really prefer the first or second of chewy's options. Heroes-for-hire sounds too close to VE for my tastes, and there's no point having two teams doing the same thing, is there?
OOK OOK ACK EEK!
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The only significant opinions I have are these: With two teams, we should allow ourselves to have the option of writing the 'big' stuff with one, and the 'smaller' stuff with the other. Having two teams handle only the smaller level stuff, or, only the bigger threats would simply be redundant, and antithetical with the reasoning behind creating two seperate teams. This does not mean, however, we are required to only do one type of story with each. But, we should take into consideration the reality of the teams right now, and the characters that compromise each. With Grissom, Phil, Brianna, BF, RoboSquirrel, and Tiberius making up the total of VI right now, they aren't exactly what I would call a powerhouse line-up. The level of ability and power combined isn't enough to handle the cosmic, higher level threats right now. For them to become the world's protectorate, they would need some serious additions to their line-up. More power. Right now, VE remains at an even level of power, even though they have more members. Drake, Gaunt, Adem, Lykopis, Icarus, Ozzy, Tommy, and Victor. Only really Gaunt comes close to being a bigger-threat character. So, while they are able to deal with more exotic threats, they would still be hard-pressed to turn the tide during an alien invasion, or some other higher-level threat. Therefore, the conclusion I have come to is simple. Each team handles their own brands of threats or adventurers in the way that's logical and believable, given their current levels of power. That means, if an alien invasion or some other cosmic threat popped up, it would more than likely take the combination of both teams working in unity as that 'Authority'-leveled team that some want achieved. If the big threats are truly that...big....then, it's not like they'll happen every single story. So, then, everyone is happy. We do small stuff, and the writers who enjoy small stuff get their day. And, when we do big stuff, we bring the needed characters together, and do the big stuff, thus satisfying the needs of the more epic of us (which counts me). Now, this does not prelude people creating new characters for VI, in place of the ones they are using now. If VI becomes more powerful, then, it would almost be a shame not to have them become Earth's defense force. But, really, only then. My .75 
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Quote:
Eurostar said:
A suggestion:
for once, let's really don't care about continuity, and have Danny's story about the enforcement of the ban right now, writing it at the same time of the murder story.
That way, the Murder story would be unrestrained by previously estabilished outcomes, being free to fly toward unexpected paths.
You know, this makes a certain kind of sense.
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
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Since the talk thread seems dead, while the question posed by Mxy I think it is important, especially now that Danny (as for what he has told to me) is not interested anymore into the Vanguard/Strikeforce fight, and so the outcome for the story is again unpredictable.
So, what should be Vanguard International after the murder issue?
Quote:
Mxy said:
I don't have problems with any direction the team might take and I'd bring back my character next issue anyway, but I'd like to submit my vote for VI taking over the Strikeforce.
One for superhero team
Quote:
Sammitch said:
I know you asked Chewy, but in my opinion, even if the UN isn't actively keeping VI down , the world is still wary of VI. I personally don't see them replacing the Strikeforce or being fully accepted as long as the business in Manhattan is going on. Just my opinion.
One for keeping the current situation (hiding metas?). I may point out that the Manhattan situation is not affecting much VE.
Quote:
Danny said:
I officially don't care.
Ok, that's self explanatory...
Quote:
Chewysaid:
1.) Adventurers - Vanguard becomes a team of adventurers, travelling the world in search of mystery and excitement. Crazy stuff. Finding Atlantis. Searching for lost civilizations in the Amazon rainforests. Tomb raiding in Egyptian pyramids. Something that would give the writers a chance to just have fun with the stories again, rather than becoming bogged down by continuity.*
2.) Sheer epic - Vanguard starts tackling bigger problems. Much bigger. I'm talking Antarctica-level problems. Alien invasions. Extra-dimensional conquerors. Friggin' huge sea monsters. If it's a friggin' big thing, Vanguard will take care of it... but not with the backing of the UN. I really would rather not explore that option. (See *)
3.) Security detail - Vanguard becomes a group of "heroes for hire" as a subsidiary of Sandcrawler Security in San Fransisco. It would allow for a much smaller group orientation and would allow for travel across the United States to various clients of Grissom's who are having problems with... whatever. Essentially, the opposite of #2.
That's one more vote for Mxy's proposal, IF there is no ties to UN or the Strikeforce. There are also two good proposal.
Quote:
SpandexMonkeyMan said:
I really prefer the first or second of chewy's options. Heroes-for-hire sounds too close to VE for my tastes, and there's no point having two teams doing the same thing, is there?
One more vote for Mxy, and one for the adventurer team.
Quote:
Prometheus said, among other things...:
With Grissom, Phil, Brianna, BF, RoboSquirrel, and Tiberius making up the total of VI right now, they aren't exactly what I would call a powerhouse line-up. The level of ability and power combined isn't enough to handle the cosmic, higher level threats right now. For them to become the world's protectorate, they would need some serious additions to their line-up. More power.
Now, this does not prelude people creating new characters for VI, in place of the ones they are using now. If VI becomes more powerful, then, it would almost be a shame not to have them become Earth's defense force. But, really, only then.
If you are going to change the settings for VI greatly enough to create a superhero team relocated from La Perdita, I would re-join with a Superman level character (Hero or a new one). If Mick Harrison or Nobody will return and (I am only guessing) Danny Hearn, and SpaMM will create a powerful character, wouldn't you consider the line up enough powerful for a superhero protectorate? I am taking the freedom to count your vote as a yes.
So, to recap:
Say yes to a superhero team: Mxy, Euro, Chewy, SpaMM, Pro.
Say no: Sammitch
Say nothing: Danny
Have not yet voted: CJ, BruteForce.
So, more though, more votes?
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Quote:
Eurostar said:
So, to recap:
Say yes to a superhero team: Mxy, Euro, Chewy, SpaMM, Pro.
Say no: Sammitch
Say nothing: Danny
Have not yet voted: CJ, BruteForce.
So, more though, more votes?
Since when do people who quit the team have a vote in team politics? 
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I second Chewy's question. Quote:
I may point out that the Manhattan situation is not affecting much VE.
Or so you think.
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Quote:
Eurostar said:So, to recap:
Say yes to a superhero team: Mxy, Euro, Chewy, SpaMM, Pro.
Say no: Sammitch
Say nothing: Danny
Have not yet voted: CJ, BruteForce.
Umm, Euro, I don't think Chewy, SPAM and Pro said exactly "yes" to my proposal. Chewy said he prefered the adventurers option over the "superhero" one (they're not the same thing), SPAM said he liked those two, and Pro raised his concerns over the superhero option.
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Don't be snobs, guys.
Who's being a snob? It's a valid point. If a person is not writing in the group, then, they have no more of a vote than any other person on this message board. If Euro has decided to rejoin and start writing in the stories again, then, fine. He has a vote. Same with you. Otherwise, the opinion is acknowledged, and nothing more.
As for the frame of our stories, my exact point was....if we are to do grand, epic stories in the superhero vein, then, it is only logical that the team is equipped with characters that can handle grand, epic stories.
If we have all created these individual characters, because they are the characters we want to write, then, it's obvious that no one has previously had the intention of writing grand, epic stories.
The choice therein is, if the writers want to replace their current characters with more powerful characters of their own design, then, good. It would be only logical that we can, and should, write the big, superhero stuff. If they want to keep who they have already, then, it's just as obvious that they are not prepared to handle the higher-level threats. And, thus, there would be no reason to write such a thing with them.
I add, also, this morsel of thought and opinion: What if we just allow it to grow organically? What if we just step back, write the characters and stories in a way that would excite us, with no pre-planning as to what they should ultimately be? What if we just let them be, and write? That's how all of out greatest stories and ideas have flourished in the past.
Just a thought.
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Quote:
Who's being a snob? It's a valid point. If a person is not writing in the group, then, they have no more of a vote than any other person on this message board. If Euro has decided to rejoin and start writing in the stories again, then, fine. He has a vote. Same with you. Otherwise, the opinion is acknowledged, and nothing more.
Exactly. Which is why you don't see me saying "this is what VI should be. . .blah blah blah" If asked, I give my opinion. And I've given my opinion to at least Chewy, I know.
Quote:
I add, also, this morsel of thought and opinion: What if we just allow it to grow organically? What if we just step back, write the characters and stories in a way that would excite us, with no pre-planning as to what they should ultimately be? What if we just let them be, and write? That's how all of out greatest stories and ideas have flourished in the past.
Seems to be working fine in VE. All I'm saying.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I add, also, this morsel of thought and opinion: What if we just allow it to grow organically? What if we just step back, write the characters and stories in a way that would excite us, with no pre-planning as to what they should ultimately be? What if we just let them be, and write? That's how all of out greatest stories and ideas have flourished in the past.
Just a thought.
I concur!
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All I'm saying is -- be nice. Or I'll send the C-Men after you. And that could get messy. Ew.
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Huh-huh-huh   ...he said c-men....huh-huh-huh
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I thought the C Men broke up when Head Fall Off Boy couldn't find his body and Drag Racer eloped with Master Beta. . .
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Quote:
Eurostar said:
Since the talk thread seems dead, while the question posed by Mxy I think it is important, especially now that Danny (as for what he has told to me) is not interested anymore into the Vanguard/Strikeforce fight,
Not necessarily not interested, but it just doesn't seem to make as much sense now. They know Merlin was lying, they can have the ban lifted, etc.
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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Things can get turned around if we want them to.
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I don't know about Euro, but I'm willing to put my Strikeforce characters in an uncomfortable and morally doubtful situation even if they're good guys, in fact I'd like to do that a lot. Euro, I know you've said Hero (and TTT's characters) wouldn't do some things, but what I like about the guy is how human he is, in contrast to his superhuman powers, and humans do fuck up quite often.
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Sorry for the delayed answer(s)... my grandmother died some days ago after a very painful month (for her and for us), then I got the worst flu of my life, so I could come to the computer only now. By the way, I must apologise for some part of my behaviour in this forum in the last month, but I was very shaken by the happenings in my life. Probably I should have simply stopped to come here, waiting for better days. My mistake.
Anyway, you deserves some answers.
Quote:
Chewy said:
Since when do people who quit the team have a vote in team politics?
Since you also said: Quote:
I'm willing to go with MAJORITY, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of Grimm, Ceej, Sammitch, and Danny (maybe even Doc?) before coming to an actual decision.
Quote:
Grimm said:
Quote:
Euro said:
I may point out that the Manhattan situation is not affecting much VE.
Or so you think.
what i think is that the name of Vanguard International is cleared up from the accusation of Merlin, and being presently NO ONE of the original members associated to the MBL, and that have been impersonated by the evil MBLears, I don't see why there should not be acceptance of them by the public at large, like it is for VE, especially because the meta-hate theme seems gone from both VI and VE as of now. Then, I can be wrong, because I am basing my words just on what I see, not on what it is planned to happen.
Quote:
Mxy said:
Umm, Euro, I don't think Chewy, SPAM and Pro said exactly "yes" to my proposal. Chewy said he prefered the adventurers option over the "superhero" one (they're not the same thing), SPAM said he liked those two, and Pro raised his concerns over the superhero option.
I reported that in my first part of the post, but still I though it was interesting to count all the possible yes -some more straight, some a lot less- to your question and proposal. Like I said when I quitted, I would return if things would change: I very like your original proposal, yet I understand the objections made by Chewy and the others, and I also very like the two other proposal of Chewy (altough the adventurer one I am sure would be impractical for most the present posters). Just, only SpaMM put a vote for one of them.
Quote:
Pro said:
if we are to do grand, epic stories in the superhero vein, then, it is only logical that the team is equipped with characters that can handle grand, epic stories.
We have talked about this before, and you know I couldn't strongly disagree more. It's never how the character is loaded with powers, but always as the character is written. The Fantastic Four are a lot less numbered and powerful than the Avengers, yet they defeated Galactus...
The current roster of the Vanguardian is awesome: there is the master of sound, the master of mind, the master of matter, the master of strength... and if Mxy returns (as the end of Danny's betrayal issue seemed to imply) the master of fantasy as well. It's just how we write them, really.
Quote:
...and also said:
What if we just allow it to grow organically? What if we just step back, write the characters and stories in a way that would excite us, with no pre-planning as to what they should ultimately be? What if we just let them be, and write? That's how all of out greatest stories and ideas have flourished in the past.
In the past it never worked like that. It worked always by stasis and jumps, with overhauls of the some kind Mxy is proposing now, The only difference is while before they have been always the choice of one or few, this time we are democratically discussing them.
For a few issue there have been the circus. Then the Circus has been destoryed and the team arrived at La Perdita and became the MBL. The MBL remained the same for some issues, and then it become Vanguard., At some point Vanguard International was destroyed, and (mostly for my fault) began this period of UN-ban, that cease with the current crossover.
Growing organically is a good thing, and it's happening in VE, but inside a previously established format, that is the company that gives missions to a group of metahumans. That's what makes VE easy for new readers to jump in. You have just to get an hold of the characters, and there isn't really more.
With Vanguard there is the island, the people of the island, there was the Strikeforce supblot... many things are my faults, I perfectly knows, but now that I have seen the light, why I should still defend them?
What I am saying, is that there is the need to build a frame within which the stories could be told letting the characters to grow organically.
Mxy's proposal presents a frame that is easy to grasp for any potential new writer, it's different enough from VE to let the writers that belongs to both groups to try different things, don't brings any baggage from the past that could scare new writers.
By the way the same applies for Chewy other two proposals, just one, IMO, would require a lot of skills for the writers, and the other is exceedingly similar to VE in scopes.
Quote:
Grimm said:
Exactly. Which is why you don't see me saying "this is what VI should be. . .blah blah blah" If asked, I give my opinion.
I gave mine because Mxy's proposal involve heavily the Strikeforce. And also because I deeply care for VI.
Quote:
Mxy's said:
I don't know about Euro, but I'm willing to put my Strikeforce characters in an uncomfortable and morally doubtful situation even if they're good guys, in fact I'd like to do that a lot. Euro, I know you've said Hero (and TTT's characters) wouldn't do some things, but what I like about the guy is how human he is, in contrast to his superhuman powers, and humans do fuck up quite often.
No, probably I was unable to express my though.
What I was intending is that this Strikeforce, as an organisation, being made of strongly individual people and being now without their mind-manipulator leader, Merlin, wouldn't behave like the old Strikeforces.
At an individual level they could be morally challenged and twisted in the way you like... in fact, I have completely changed the character of Hero in such a way... but for example Graviton is a straight good guy, and wouldn't accept any compromise. In fact, I was going to ask TTT the freedom to kill him off, to letting that trick with the UN to works. Now that Danny seems to find that the invasion story would not make sense anymore, there would be no reason for that.
So, to recap, fuck up with Hero as much as you want, as I too like to do that, while leave Graviton as respectable as he is.
And, finally,
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Danny said:
Not necessarily not interested, but it just doesn't seem to make as much sense now. They know Merlin was lying, they can have the ban lifted, etc.
I gave you an answer for that: fuck continuity.
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Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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That would be masturbation, then.
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Hah! Take that, continuity!
Very sorry about your loss, Euro.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
Yeah, sorry to hear that Euro. 
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,421
1000+ posts
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1000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,421 |
Thanks guys. I was basically raised by grandmother when I was a kid, being my mother working in a bank for all day long, and seeing her extinguishing like a candle in much pain, without the power to do anything to lessen it, has been incredibly shaking.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4
Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4 |
I am very sorry to hear about your grandmother, Euro. Losing family is a hard thing. You have my sympathies.
On the subject of Vanguard, I want to throw a (maybe old) idea out there. Let's just do them both. Let's just create a Strikeforce thread (starring completely new characters, or, whomever each writer prefers), and continue to do a seperate Vanguard International thread (with the current group, or, whoever). Then, everyone could have their cake, and eat it, too. If we want to make Vanguard into the world's protectorate (ala' Strikeforce), then, let's just do it later when everyone is onboard. It will still be there. It's not like we are on a timetable.
Just a thought...
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948
4000+ posts
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4000+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948 |
Euro, my condolences on your loss. It's a hard thing.
Pro: MORE writing? God, you saw how long it took me to join a second team...
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948
4000+ posts
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4000+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948 |
You know what? I'm just gonna start a new story.
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,081
... 10000+ posts
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... 10000+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,081 |
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