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Freaking animals. This is proof that you can't take a hand holding approach with terrorists, you have to use agression.

Quote:

Russians Storm School; 150 May Be Dead

16 minutes ago

By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - Commandos stormed a school Friday in southern Russia and battled separatist rebels holding 1,200 hostages, as crying children, some naked and covered in blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. An official said the death toll could be significantly higher than 150.

Hours after the midday assault, three of the separatist rebels were reportedly still blockaded in a school basement, trading fire with security forces. A Federal Security Service official said militants were still holding hostages — children among them.


The school was largely secured late Friday afternoon, but a large explosion erupted from inside toward nightfall, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported. A member of an elite security unit died saving two young girls, the agency reported.


Valery Andreyev, the top Federal Security Service official in the region, said 20 militants were killed, including 10 Arabs. The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites)'s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been fighting Russian forces in a brutal a war of independence for most of the past decade.


A hostage who escaped told Associated Press Television News that the militants numbered 28, including women wearing camouflage uniforms. The hostage, who identified himself only as Teimuraz, said the militants began wiring the school with explosives as soon as they took control.


The chaotic climax to the hostage standoff began when explosions collapsed part of the school roof and gunfire erupted from inside the building where the militants, some with explosives strapped to their bodies, stormed the school Wednesday morning.


The militants — demanding independence for nearby Chechnya (news - web sites) — kept the hostages, mostly women and children, in the sweltering gymnasium, refusing to let in food or water.


"They didn't let me go to the toilet for three days, not once. They never let me drink or go to the toilet," Teimuraz, the escaped hostage told APTN.


After the hostage-takers fled, more than 100 bodies were found in the gymnasium, some apparently killed when part of the school's roof collapsed in the explosion that prompted the Russian security forces to move in.


A Putin aide said the total death toll could be significantly more than 150 people. An estimated 520 people were wounded, health officials said. The regional health minister earlier reported that at least 218 children were wounded.


Aslanbek Aslakhanov, Putin's top aide on Chechnya, said security forces did not plan to storm the building, but were prompted to move when the hostage-takers set off explosions early Friday afternoon. Witnesses said the militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and then began to escape themselves.


Gunfire rang out for hours as security forces chased hostage-takers, who split into small groups as they fled. Interfax and the ITAR-Tass news agency reported the three militants holed up in the basement may include the head of the group. Another group took refuge in a nearby house where tanks moved in.


Huge columns of smoke rose from the school. Windows were shattered, part of roof was gone and another part was charred. Commandos, residents and journalists scurried around the building and soldiers climbed inside through a lower floor window, all the glass missing.


People ran through the streets, and the wounded were carried off on stretchers. An Associated Press reporter saw ambulances speeding by, the windows streaked with blood. Four armed men in civilian clothes ran by, shouting, "A militant ran this way."


Soldiers and men in civilian clothes carried children — some naked, some clad only in underpants, some covered in blood — to a temporary hospital set up behind an armored personnel carrier. One child had a bandage on her head, others had bandaged limbs. Some women, newly freed from the school, fainted.


The children drank eagerly from bottles of water given to them once they reached safety. Many of the children were naked or only partly clothed because of the stifling heat in the gymnasium.


"I am helping you," a man dressed in camouflage told a crying girl. Women gathered around, trying to soothe her, saying "It's all right. It's all right."





A cameraman for the British network ITN reported seeing around 100 bodies in the gym. The correspondent for Russia's Interfax news agency reported that there were dozens of bodies in the school, including about 100 in the gym, and that some were killed when the building's roof collapsed from an explosion before the main assault began.

Sixty of the bodies in the gymnasium have been identified, said Andreyev, the chief of the Federal Security Service in North Ossetia said.

A nurse spread clean sheets on stretchers, and told AP that Russian officials expected "very many" wounded.

The White House branded the hostage-taking "barbaric" and "despicable" and said responsibility for dozens of lost lives rests with the terrorists. "The United States stands side-by-side with Russia in our global fight against terrorism," spokesman Scott McClellan said.

President Bush (news - web sites) was briefed on developments in Russia Friday morning before a re-election rally in Pennsylvania. He did not talk about the Russian terrorism during his speech.

The chaos erupted on the third day of the hostage standoff in Beslan, a town of 30,000 in North Ossetia, a republic near the wartorn region of Chechnya. North Ossetia's president, Alexander Dzasokhov, said Friday the militants had demanded independence for Chechnya — the first official word connecting the hostage-taking to the conflict that has fueled Russia's worst terror attacks.

The violence began after militants had agreed to let Russia retrieve the bodies of people killed early in the raid. Explosions went off as the emergency personnel went to get the bodies at around 1 p.m., collapsing part of the roof of the building, and hostages took the noise as a signal to flee, officials said.

Militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and security forces returned fire. Once the hostage-takers sought to escape, Russian officials apparently made the decision to storm the building.

The militants had reportedly threatened to blow up the building if authorities tried to storm it, but all indications suggested the explosions began before the assault. Russian officials repeatedly said they were not planning to invade and had earlier won the release of 26 hostages through negotiations.

The hostage-takers' identities were murky. Lev Dzugayev, a North Ossetian official, said the attackers might be from Chechnya or Ingushetia. Law enforcement sources in North Ossetia and Ingushetia, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the attackers were believed to include Chechens, Ingush, Russians and a North Ossetian suspected of participating in the Ingushetia violence.

Insurgents fought an earlier war for Chechen independence, a conflict that ended in stalemate. In the years since, the rebels and their sympathizers have increasingly taken to assaults and attacks outside the tiny republic.

Negotiators said the hostage-takers had repeatedly refused offers of food and water throughout the standoff.

"They are very cruel people, we are facing a ruthless enemy," said Leonid Roshal, a pediatrician involved in the negotiations. "I talked with them many times on my cell phone, but every time I ask to give food, water and medicine to the hostages they refuse my request."

The school seizure came a day after a suspected Chechen suicide bomber blew herself up outside a Moscow subway station, killing nine people, and just over a week after 90 people died in two plane crashes that are suspected to have been blown up by bombers also linked to Chechnya.

In a 2002 theater raid in Moscow, Chechen rebels took about 800 hostages during a performance, a standoff that ended after a knockout gas was pumped into the building, debilitating the captors but causing almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.

On Thursday, the militants had freed about 26 hostages, all women and children.




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Quote:

Freaking animals. This is proof that you can't take a hand holding approach with terrorists, you have to use agression.




Agreed


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Maybe if you negotiate, all those children would not be dead.


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I've been watching this story unfold on the BBC. It was never going to end peacefully because there was no room for negotiation and the hostage takers seemed prepared to die.

There's a lot of unconfirmed speculation flying around such as whether the siege might be tied-in with the recent terrorist attacks on Russian airliners. There were reports that some of the militants were wearing suicide jackets. Someone mentioned the Chechnyan black widows - women who have lost husbands and sons in the conflict with Russia and have been groomed to become suicide bombers. If such women were involved, then this tragedy rests on the foundation of a chain of smaller, but no less significant tragedies.

Did anyone else get the sense that the Russian troops were having trouble keeping the crowds of concerned family members under control. I heard that some of the terrorists were able to escape into the swell of people, when the fighting broke out.

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Quote:

Jim Jackson said:
Maybe if you negotiate, all those children would not be dead.




the militants began wiring the school with explosives as soon as they took control.

You can't negotiate with people that do this. This is not the action of people that want to end things peacfully. Their sole intent was violence caused by explosives. Some of them ran in wearing explosives. How can you negitiate with people like that? They never wanted it, they went in ready to die.


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Quote:

Batwoman said:
Quote:

Jim Jackson said:
Maybe if you negotiate, all those children would not be dead.




the militants began wiring the school with explosives as soon as they took control.

You can't negotiate with people that do this. This is not the action of people that want to end things peacfully. Their sole intent was violence caused by explosives. Some of them ran in wearing explosives. How can you negitiate with people like that? They never wanted it, they went in ready to die.




If the terrorists intent was to not negotiate and only to destroy lives and property, why not just go in and blow everything up? Why take hostages?


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To prove a point. Who knows? People that do those kinds of things aren't right in the head. No sane woman would take anyone hostage, much less treat them like they did, and kill them.


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Quote:

Jim Jackson said:
Quote:

Batwoman said:
Quote:

Jim Jackson said:
Maybe if you negotiate, all those children would not be dead.




the militants began wiring the school with explosives as soon as they took control.

You can't negotiate with people that do this. This is not the action of people that want to end things peacfully. Their sole intent was violence caused by explosives. Some of them ran in wearing explosives. How can you negitiate with people like that? They never wanted it, they went in ready to die.




If the terrorists intent was to not negotiate and only to destroy lives and property, why not just go in and blow everything up? Why take hostages?




Perhaps they wanted something, something that shouldn't be given them, but as far as the idea that it's the fault of the Russians for not engaging in a more sensitive battle. No one stormed the scholl untill after they started killing kids. I'll never understand why some people will alwayse blame everyone but the terrorists.


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I am clearly blaming the terrorists for the horror of these events. Some of the blame can be shared by Russians if their assault on the school today was not planned, considered effort. But I can't speak to whether or not they have a legitimate case for Chechnyan separation. These are the actions of desperate people.


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Quote:

These are the actions of desperate people.




desperate evil people.


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Quote:

Jim Jackson said:
If the terrorists intent was to not negotiate and only to destroy lives and property, why not just go in and blow everything up? Why take hostages?





To give a sense of false hope.

If you think they will negotiate, then you have hope. You believe that there is a chance the hostages will be released.

That is their point.

That is their greatest weapon.

That is the true terror that they spread.


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So true...

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Quote:

Russia Hostage Death Toll Said to Top 200

1 hour, 27 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - Commandos stormed a school Friday in southern Russia and battled separatist rebels holding hundreds of hostages, as crying children, some naked and covered in blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. Estimates of the number of dead were as high as 200.

The hostage-takers, who had been demanding independence for Chechnya (news - web sites), fled the assault, took refuge in a nearby house and a basement in the school compound and traded fire with security forces. After about 12 hours, the Russian government said resistance had ended, though four others were still being sought. Twenty militants were killed, including 10 Arabs, officials said, and there were reports of three arrested.


There were reports of at least 100 dead in the school gym. Lines of dead children and adults could be seen lying on stretchers, covered with white sheets. Grieving parents and loved ones knelt beside the dead.


Bodies of children also were laid out under a grove of trees near a hospital awaiting identification. Nearby anxious crowds gathered around lists of injured posted on the walls of the hospital buildings.


The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites)'s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been battling Russian forces in a brutal war of independence on and off since the early 1990s.


Security sources accused al-Qaida of financing the takeover of the school and said Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev masterminded the raid, the ITAR-Tass new agency reported. The report also said an alleged al-Qaida operative, Abu Omar as-Saif, coordinated the financing of the attack.


On the campaign trail in Wisconsin, President Bush (news - web sites) said the hostage siege was "another grim reminder" of the lengths to which terrorists will go.


Officials at the crisis headquarters said 95 victims have been identified so far. Health Ministry officials said the total death toll was more than 200, the Interfax news agency reported.


Emergency Situations Ministry officials said 704 people were hospitalized, including 259 children. Many were badly burned.


Officials said security forces had not planned to assault the school, where the militants had been holding hostages — up to 1,500 of them, according to one freed captive — in the gymnasium since Wednesday morning. But the troops' hand was forced when the militants set off explosions and began shooting Friday afternoon, officials said.


A police explosives expert told NTV television that the commandos stormed the building after bombs wired to basketball hoops exploded in the gymnasium. A captive who escaped the school told NTV television that a suicide bomber blew herself up in the gym.


Troops were engaged in "fierce fighting" for hours with militants, who still held some hostages, said Valery Andreyev, the regional Federal Security Service chief. Three militants reportedly barricaded themselves in the basement.


Soon after nightfall, a large explosion issued from the school, and officials at the crisis operations center said later that resistance was over. They said four militants remained at large, but it was not clear if they held any more hostages. Channel One TV reported three militants were arrested after trying to escape in civilian dress.


A hostage who escaped told Associated Press Television News that the militants numbered 28, including women wearing camouflage uniforms. The hostage, who identified himself only as Teimuraz, said the militants began wiring the school with explosives as soon as they took control. He said they had placed bombs on both basketball hoops in the gym.


The bomb expert also said the gym had been rigged with explosives packed in plastic bottles strung up around the room on a cord and stuffed with metal objects.


The militants stormed the school in Beslan on Wednesday morning and kept the hundreds of children along with parents who had been bringing them for the first day of school and other adults in the sweltering gymnasium, refusing to allow deliveries of food and water.


"They didn't let me go to the toilet for three days, not once. They never let me drink or go to the toilet," Teimuraz told APTN.





Leonid Roshal, a pediatrician involved in negotiations with the militants before they were stormed, called them "very cruel people .... a ruthless enemy."

"I talked with them many times on my cell phone, but every time I ask to give food, water and medicine to the hostages they refuse my request," Roshal said.

The chaotic climax to the standoff began around 1 p.m. Friday, when explosions collapsed part of the school roof and gunfire erupted from inside the building. Security forces moved in.

Aslanbek Aslakhanov, Putin's top aide on Chechnya, said security forces did not plan to storm the building, but were prompted to move by the first explosions. Witnesses said the militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and then began to escape themselves.

Russian forces had held back, perhaps remembering the deadly outcome two years ago when security troops used nerve gas before storming a Moscow theater where Chechen terrorists had taken about 800 hostages. The nerve gas debilitated the captors but also was the cause of most of the 129 hostage deaths.

As the captives escaped the school, residents and troops ran through the streets, and the wounded were carried off on stretchers. An Associated Press reporter saw ambulances speeding by, the windows streaked with blood. Four armed men in civilian clothes ran by, shouting, "A militant ran this way."

Soldiers and men in civilian clothes carried children — some naked, some clad only in underpants, some covered in blood — to a first-aid station set up behind an armored personnel carrier. One child had a bandage on her head, others had bandaged limbs. Some women, newly freed from the school, fainted.

The children drank eagerly from bottles of water given to them once they reached safety. Many of the children were naked or only partly clothed because of the stifling heat in the gymnasium.

"I am helping you," a man dressed in camouflage told a crying girl. Women gathered around, trying to soothe her, saying "It's all right. It's all right."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan called the hostage-taking "barbaric" and "despicable... . The United States stands side-by-side with Russia in our global fight against terrorism."

North Ossetia's president, Alexander Dzasokhov, said Friday the militants had demanded independence for Chechnya, the first official word connecting the hostage-taking to the conflict that has fueled Russia's worst terror attacks.

The militants had reportedly threatened to blow up the building if authorities tried to storm it, but all indications suggested the explosions began before the assault.

The hostage-takers' identities were murky. Lev Dzugayev, a North Ossetian official, said the attackers might be from Chechnya or Ingushetia. Law enforcement sources in North Ossetia and Ingushetia, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the attackers were believed to include Chechens, Ingush, Russians and a North Ossetian suspected of participating in the Ingushetia violence.

Insurgents fought an earlier war for Chechen independence, a conflict that ended in stalemate. In the years since, the rebels and their sympathizers have increasingly taken to assaults and attacks outside the tiny republic.

The school seizure came a day after a suspected Chechen suicide bomber blew herself up outside a Moscow subway station, killing nine people, and just over a week after 90 people died in two nearly simultaneous plane crashes that are suspected to have been blown up by bombers also linked to Chechnya.




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Quote:

Russia Standoff Ends in Bloodshed for 200

15 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - The three-day hostage siege at a school in southern Russia ended in chaos and bloodshed Friday, after witnesses said Chechen militants set off bombs and Russian commandos stormed the building. Hostages fled in terror, many of them children who were half-naked and covered in blood. Officials estimated the death toll at more than 200.


AP Photo


Reuters
Slideshow: Terrorists Take Children Hostage, Troops End Standoff




Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children — 92 of the youngsters in "very grave" condition, health officials said.


Sixty-two hours after the hostage drama began during a celebration marking the first day of the school year, the Russian government said resistance had ended.


Valery Andreyev, Russia's Federal Security Service chief in the region, said 10 Arabs were among 27 militants who were killed. The ITAR-Tass news agency, citing unidentified security sources, reported the hostage-taking was the work of Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, who had al-Qaida backing.


Alla Gadieyeva, 24, who was taken captive with her 7-year-old son and mother, said the militants displayed terrifying brutality from the start. One gunman, whose pockets were stuffed with grenades, held up the corpse of a man just shot in front of hundreds of hostages and warned: "If a child utters even a sound, we'll kill another one."


When children fainted from lack of sleep, food and water, their masked and camouflaged captors simply sneered, she said, adding that adults implored children to drink their own urine in the intolerable heat of the gym.


She and other hostages said there was a little water but no food the first day. The hostages got nothing to eat or drink after that.


Gadieyeva told of three days of unspeakable horror — of children so frightened they couldn't sleep, of captors coolly threatening to kill off hostages one by one. The gym where they were held was so cramped there was hardly room to move.


"We were in complete fear," said Gadieyeva, who spoke to an Associated Press reporter as she lay collapsed with exhaustion on a stretcher outside a hospital. "People were praying all the time, and those that didn't know how to pray — we taught them."


The Interfax news agency quoted unidentified sources in the regional Health Ministry as saying more than 200 people were killed. The figure could not be confirmed. Reporters said they had seen at least 100 bodies in the school gym.


Under a grove of trees outside the school, white sheets covered dead bodies, including those of children, on lines of stretchers. Grieving parents and loved ones knelt beside the dead, some of whom were awaiting identification. Nearby, anxious crowds gathered around lists of injured posted on the walls of the hospital buildings.


It was not clear where the tragic end to the siege would leave President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites)'s tough policy on Chechnya (news - web sites), which has enjoyed broad domestic support despite the heavy toll rebel violence has taken in recent years. He has said the Russian fight in the Caucasus was part of the world's larger war on terrorism.


On the campaign trail in Wisconsin, President Bush (news - web sites) said the hostage siege was "another grim reminder" of the lengths to which terrorists will go. World governments joined Washington in condemning the militants.


"It is hard to express my revulsion at the inhumanity of terrorists prepared to put children and their families through such suffering," British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) said.


The State Department issued a public announcement warning U.S. citizens living or traveling in Russia against going to Chechnya and the neighboring regions because of a heightened risk of terrorist attacks.


"American citizens in Russia should exercise caution and remain vigilant and aware of these heightened risks when planning use of or using any form of public transportation. American citizens should also avoid large public gatherings that lack enhanced security measures," the announcement said.


The Arab presence among the attackers would support Putin's contention that al-Qaida terrorists were deeply involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been battling Russian forces in a brutal war of independence on and off for more than a decade. ITAR-Tass said Basayev received funding for the attack from allege al-Qaida operative, Abu Omar as-Saif.





Russian authorities said they stormed the building after the militants set off explosions and fired shots as emergency teams approached to collect the bodies of several men killed earlier. They said the hostage-takers had given them permission to take the corpses away. Witnesses quoted by Russian media said the militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and then began to escape themselves.

A police explosives expert told NTV television that the commandos stormed the building after bombs wired to basketball hoops exploded in the gymnasium, where many of the children were being held. A captive who escaped told NTV that a suicide bomber blew herself up in the gym.

Channel One TV reported three of the attackers were arrested after trying to escape in civilian dress. Four militants were believed to have escaped. A member of an elite security unit died saving two young girls, ITAR-Tass reported.

The standoff was declared at an end hours after commandos began their midday assault, when a final large explosion issued from the school, apparently ending a gunfight between three militants trapped in the school basement and security forces trying to free children being used as human shields. Sporadic shooting continued hours later.

A hostage who escaped told the AP that the militants numbered 28, including women wearing camouflage uniforms. The hostage, who identified himself only as Teimuraz, said the militants began wiring the school with explosives as soon as they took control. He, too, said they had placed bombs on both basketball hoops in the gym.

The bomb expert said the gym had been rigged with explosives packed in plastic bottles strung up around the room on a cord and stuffed with metal objects.

The militants, some with explosives strapped to their bodies, stormed the school in Beslan on Wednesday morning and kept the hundreds of children along with parents in the sweltering gymnasium, refusing to allow deliveries of food and water.

"They didn't let me go to the toilet for three days, not once. They never let me drink or go to the toilet," Teimuraz said.

Leonid Roshal, a pediatrician involved in negotiations with the militants before they were stormed, called them "very cruel people ... a ruthless enemy."

"I talked with them many times on my cell phone, but every time I ask to give food, water and medicine to the hostages they refuse my request," Roshal said.

Putin's adviser on Chechnya, Aslanbek Aslakhanov, said security forces had not planned to storm the building, but were prompted to move by the first explosions about 1 p.m. Friday. Officials had pledged not to use force.

Russian forces had held back, perhaps remembering the deadly outcome two years ago when security troops pumped nerve gas into a Moscow theater before storming in to free about 800 hostages being held by Chechen terrorists. The nerve gas debilitated the captors but also was the cause of most of the 129 hostage deaths.

As the captives escaped the school, residents and troops ran through the streets, and the wounded were carried off on stretchers. An AP reporter saw ambulances speeding by, the windows streaked with blood. Four armed men in civilian clothes ran by, shouting, "A militant ran this way."

Streets around the school were a dizzying tableau of chaos as soldiers and men in civilian clothes carried children — some naked, some clad only in underpants, some covered in blood, some bandaged. Women, newly freed from the school, fainted.

The children drank eagerly from bottles of water given to them once they reached safety. Many of the children had removed their clothing because of the stifling heat in the gymnasium.

"I am helping you," a man dressed in camouflage told a crying girl. Women gathered around, trying to soothe her, saying "It's all right. It's all right."




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Leave it to the Russians to fuck up yet another rescue attempt.

The Kursk submarine disaster. The Moscow theatre disaster. And Now this.

Putin's gonna hear it for this one I'm sure.

Still, it was pretty much a no-win situation anyways.

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You really are a piece of work Whomod you know that? How can you say they screw this up and then turn around and say it was a no win situation in the same breath? You're contradicting yourself.


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Thank you Batwoman.

Nicely done.

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Quote:

Batwoman said:
You really are a piece of work Whomod you know that? How can you say they screw this up and then turn around and say it was a no win situation in the same breath? You're contradicting yourself.




Why is it a contradiction?

If it's no-win, they're inevitably gonna fuck up one way or the other.

Maybe I should have devoted 4 paragraphs to elaborate.

My point was that Putin is gonna pay for this one from his own people. It seems that any encounter with peril under his leadership seems to end in tragedy. That can't bode well for his popularity with his people.

As for me saying it's a no--win situation. Well, that's merely my opinion. Jim has suggested that negotiation may have saved more life. I don't entirely agree with that but it is a possibity nonethless. Just a bunch of what if's. A bunch of what-if's the Russians are undoubtedly asking themselves right now.

Question: Why the hostility in your tone towards me., I don't recall having 2 words with you EVER.


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Why would terrorists attack Russians?

After all, Russians opposed the war on Iraq whch, as we've been told for over a year now, is the only reason terrorists hate the US.


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Quote:

the G-man said:
Why would terrorists attack Russians?

After all, Russians opposed the war on Iraq whch, as we've been told for over a year now, is the only reason terrorists hate the US.






Please G-man. I know you're more informed than this.

Why are you trying to make this about Iraq??

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According to the intial article:

    The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites)'s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been fighting Russian forces in a brutal a war of independence for most of the past decade.


For over a year, a certain segment of the population has argued that attacking Iraq made us a target of Islamic terrorists.

Russia opposed attacking Iraq and, surprise, their STILL a target of Islamic terrorists.

Same with France too, by the way.

So, while this may not be "about Iraq," it's certainly about the fact that terrorists don't leave alone the people that play "nice" with them.

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whomod said:
Jim has suggested that negotiation may have saved more life. I don't entirely agree with that but it is a possibity nonethless.




I don't have anything to refute the idea advanced herein that the terrorists had no plans for negotiation. I just don't know. And I won't deny the evil, either. Using children in this fashion reeks of evil, imho.


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I think that negotiation with terrorists has been avoided because of a 'slippery slope' perspective. If we negotiate with people who use force to get their way once, might that encourage others to try to use force to get their way? It's a really tough place to be in.


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I think the Russians handled this the right way. The outcome of this was bit better than that Theater incident which was a complete screw-up by the Russians.

This whole Chechnya-Russia conflict is sick. Russia has instigated this kind of crap with their rutheless tactics. I'm not saying the Chechnyans were justified or anything, but both countries (if you can call Chechnya that) share blame in this current crises.

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Quote:

whomod said:
Quote:

Question: Why the hostility in your tone towards me., I don't recall having 2 words with you EVER.




Sorry, 11 hour work day with no lunch or dinner break caught up with me this morning.

But the rest stays.


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Quote:

JQ said:
I think the Russians handled this the right way. The outcome of this was bit better than that Theater incident which was a complete screw-up by the Russians.




Russia: go after terrorists with guns blazing, innocent die. That's OK

President Bush: go after terrorists with guns blazing, innocent die. That's a war crime.

Nope. No inconsistency or hypocrisy here. Nosiree bob.


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Quote:

the G-man said:
Quote:

JQ said:
I think the Russians handled this the right way. The outcome of this was bit better than that Theater incident which was a complete screw-up by the Russians.




Russia: go after terrorists with guns blazing, innocent die. That's OK

President Bush: go after terrorists with guns blazing, innocent die. That's a war crime.

Nope. No inconsistency or hypocrisy here. Nosiree bob.






You're so full of shit it's not even funny.

The "terrorists", if you could even call them that before the war started, didn't attack us. They didn't attack us. The Russians went in guns ablazing when Chechnyans took a fucking school. The sovereign nation of attack didn't attack us, and they never would. Saddam Hussein didn't share any common goals with Al-Qaeda, in fact, they hated each other.

You sure do try and push everything that happens in the world to push your retarded perspectives on politics.

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Al-Queda is a terrorist group, and they did attack us prior to 9/11, it's just that was the time the world noticed.


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Quote:

For over a year, a certain segment of the population has argued that attacking Iraq made us a target of Islamic terrorists.

Russia opposed attacking Iraq and, surprise, their STILL a target of Islamic terrorists.

Same with France too, by the way.

So, while this may not be "about Iraq," it's certainly about the fact that terrorists don't leave alone the people that play "nice" with them.





The reasons the US was targeted for terrorist attack before the Iraq war:

-Our support of Israel
-Our large military prescence in their homelands (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Afghanistan, etc.) Imagine how crazy people would get if a nation which core-values we did not share had a large military in the US. Let's say Iran or Saudi Arabia.
-Our sanctions
-The fact that we like to bomb them every couple years. That can really piss people off.

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Quote:

the G-man said:
According to the intial article:

    The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites)'s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been fighting Russian forces in a brutal a war of independence for most of the past decade.


For over a year, a certain segment of the population has argued that attacking Iraq made us a target of Islamic terrorists.

Russia opposed attacking Iraq and, surprise, their STILL a target of Islamic terrorists.

Same with France too, by the way.

So, while this may not be "about Iraq," it's certainly about the fact that terrorists don't leave alone the people that play "nice" with them.





G-man,

al-Quaida is helping fellow Muslims fight a "Russian Occupation." That's why they are attacking Russia.

As for France, don't you wonder why they are so outspoken against the US? It seems to me, and I know I'm not alone with this thinking, that they are scared shitless because of their enormous Muslim population. Therefore, in an attempt to prevent terrorist attacks, they do what the terrorist organizations want them to.


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Quote:

PenWing said:
As for France, don't you wonder why they are so outspoken against the US? It seems to me, and I know I'm not alone with this thinking, that they are scared shitless because of their enormous Muslim population. Therefore, in an attempt to prevent terrorist attacks, they do what the terrorist organizations want them to.




What a bunch of nosebleeds.

Either way I mean.

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Quote:

JQ said:
You're so full of shit it's not even funny.

The "terrorists", if you could even call them that before the war started, didn't attack us. They didn't attack us.




A brief lists of the terrorists' attacks on the US and/or US citizens abroad:


    1985 : Four Islamic terrorists hijack the Achille Lauro, and kill a disabled American tourist, 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, and throw his body overboard with his wheelchair.

    1986 : Islamic terrorists explode a bomb in West Berlin's La Belle disco, killing two US servicemen.

    1993 : Islamic terrorists detonate a bomb in the basement of the World Trade Center. The bomb was meant to topple the city's tallest tower onto its twin, amid a cloud of cyanide gas. Had the attack gone as planned, tens of thousands of Americans would have died. Instead, as we know, one tower did not fall on the other, and, rather than vaporizing, the cyanide gas burnt up in the heat of the explosion. "Only" six people died. The key figure responsible for building it--a man who had entered the United Stares on an Iraqi passport under the name of Ramzi Yousef.

    1996 : Islamic terrorists exploded a fuel truck adjacent to Building #131 in the Khobar Towers housing complex. This eight story building mostly housed United States Air Force personnel from the 4404th Fighter Wing. In all, 19 U.S. servicemen and one Saudi were killed and 372 wounded.

    1998: Osama bin Laden, leader of the Islamic terrorist group Al Quaeda, bombs U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 people.

    2000 : Islamic terrorists bomb the USS Cole, leaving 17 sailors confirmed or presumed dead, including Petty Officer 3rd Class Ronchester Santiago, 22, of Kingsville and Fireman Gary Swenchonis Jr., 26, of Rockport. Another 39 are reported injured.

    2001: You have to ask?


And this doesn't even count the hostages in Iran (1978) or the dozens, if not hundreds, of Americans killed in terrorists attacks in Israel over the years.

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Quote:

-Our support of Israel




Damn jew lovers, no wonder we got attacked


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It's interesting...

Liberals typically accuse the United States of often supporting "fascist" or similar regimes out of self-interest, and argue that we should only support democracies.

There is only one democracy in the middle East and it is Israel.

Despite that fact, liberals constantly attack our support of the only democracy in the region and use our support of that democracy as a near-justification for being the target of terror attacks from others in the region.

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Quote:

the G-man said:
It's interesting...

Liberals typically accuse the United States of often supporting "fascist" or similar regimes out of self-interest, and argue that we should only support democracies.

There is only one democracy in the middle East and it is Israel.

Despite that fact, liberals constantly attack our support of the only democracy in the region and use our support of that democracy as a near-justification for being the target of terror attacks from others in the region.




acctually there are 2, NOW.


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Quote:

the G-man said:
Quote:

JQ said:
You're so full of shit it's not even funny.

The "terrorists", if you could even call them that before the war started, didn't attack us. They didn't attack us.




A brief lists of the terrorists' attacks on the US and/or US citizens abroad:


    1985 : Four Islamic terrorists hijack the Achille Lauro, and kill a disabled American tourist, 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, and throw his body overboard with his wheelchair.

    1986 : Islamic terrorists explode a bomb in West Berlin's La Belle disco, killing two US servicemen.

    1993 : Islamic terrorists detonate a bomb in the basement of the World Trade Center. The bomb was meant to topple the city's tallest tower onto its twin, amid a cloud of cyanide gas. Had the attack gone as planned, tens of thousands of Americans would have died. Instead, as we know, one tower did not fall on the other, and, rather than vaporizing, the cyanide gas burnt up in the heat of the explosion. "Only" six people died. The key figure responsible for building it--a man who had entered the United Stares on an Iraqi passport under the name of Ramzi Yousef.

    1996 : Islamic terrorists exploded a fuel truck adjacent to Building #131 in the Khobar Towers housing complex. This eight story building mostly housed United States Air Force personnel from the 4404th Fighter Wing. In all, 19 U.S. servicemen and one Saudi were killed and 372 wounded.

    1998: Osama bin Laden, leader of the Islamic terrorist group Al Quaeda, bombs U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 people.

    2000 : Islamic terrorists bomb the USS Cole, leaving 17 sailors confirmed or presumed dead, including Petty Officer 3rd Class Ronchester Santiago, 22, of Kingsville and Fireman Gary Swenchonis Jr., 26, of Rockport. Another 39 are reported injured.

    2001: You have to ask?


And this doesn't even count the hostages in Iran (1978) or the dozens, if not hundreds, of Americans killed in terrorists attacks in Israel over the years.




The first thing I thought of as I started to read this post was the Iran hostage situation. I remember that, at least remember seeing someting on it years and years ago.

But yes, there are plenty of exmaples of terrorist attacks on Americans over the years. You're the one fooling yourself if you claim the "terrorists" didn't attack us as you put it JQ. There's plenty of evidence to refute your claims.


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When I read the phrase "'terrorists' if you can even call them that" I don't feel a need to respond.


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Just so we can be reminded who we're dealing with here...

Cleric suports targeting children.


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