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whomod said:
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Darknight613 said:


Which is a major reason why I hate it when debates turn ugly, and why I condemn what I see as hatred between liberals and conservatives or Democrats and Republicans, and their constant need to demonize each other - not just here, but in the real world. Becuase all they're accomplishing is dividing people and causing them to hate each other. What's the point? People don't have to agree with each other or see eye to eye on everything. Disagreement, discussion, and debate are positive things. But hatred and divisiveness is going way too far. It's idiotic and self-destructive for so many reasons, but the top reason is that it prevents any geuine debate or discussion from taking place - and we need genuine debate and discussion, especially with everything going on today.

As for the people around here and how serious they are, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the extremist liberals or conservatives around here are quite serious about their attacks on the opposition, although some people are just natural rabble rousers who like to jerk people's chains and are indeed kidding. It's sometimes hard to tell on a message board whether someone's being serious or just futzing around.



Again, Al Franken may call you a liar but Ann Coulter will call you a traitor.

Yet somehow the left is portrayed as being filled with the hate filled irrationals.

I just tend to see ones politics as being a product of your circumstances and experiences. Which could certainly explain to me the demographics of party loyalty IMO. It might explain mine.

Plus I tend to think people nowadays tend to filter their news mentally based on this prior biases. I know what I try to do is hammer the points that I feel are being ignored. That may annoy Rob and he might find it as me trying to declare myself as the keeper of irrefutable truth. But I'd have to ask him, what part of the news did you take with you this week? The fact that Republican leaders were saying that things were getting progressively worse in Iraq. A sentiment echoed by some of the commanders in the field in Iraq (not to mention just simply looking at the news) or did you focus and take comfort in Bush saying the exact opposite?

Did you take pleasure and comfort in Bush declaring Iraq and Afghanistan being "democracies" or did you notice this?:

U.S. Hand Seen in Afghan Election

and .......

Quote:

Iraq, U.S. Differ on Prisoner Release

By Thomas S. Mulligan Times Staff Writer

BAGHDAD — In a sign of confusion over who runs post-Hussein Iraq, the United States on Wednesday contradicted an announcement by an Iraqi government ministry that a female Iraqi scientist in U.S. custody would soon be released.

The Iraqi announcement Wednesday morning came in the midst of a crisis involving a British hostage and seemed to address kidnappers' demands that Iraqi female prisoners be released. Within hours, U.S. Embassy officials were denying that any release was imminent. Senior Iraqi officials later backtracked, declaring that Rihab Taha, nicknamed "Dr. Germ" for her alleged biological-weapons research, would no longer be freed on bail.





I think that in these times, "truth" is whatever we want it to be. Depending on which pack we identify most with.

I really don't consider myself that liberal. Still, I think everything has become so polarized that to express dissaprroval of Bush instantly places you in the "liberal/leftist/traitor" corner and makes you subject to all sorts of assumptions and generalizations not to mention making anything you say subject to being instantly wrong. Why?, because you're on the left and i'm not.

I think I mentioned that I turned away from the Republican party when i came to the conclusion that it was made up of superficial good feeling and patriotism with the underbelly being stuff that is a polar opposite of the rhetoric. I think if anything, i try to back that up. Which IMO that might not sit well with people who really don't want to hear that kind of 'unpatriotic leftist nonsense'.

Or as Reagan said, "I didn't leave the [Republican ] party, it left me". I actually still identify with some of Buchanan, McCain's and Goldwaters stuff. Which IMO I don't see represented much by Bush or the neoconservatives in his company.

There i see the same people and the remnants of the people and mentality who preached freedom but toppled and interfered democratically elected governments and installed [U.S. friendly]brutal dictators from Central America to South America to the middle East and all for our own short term selfish or ideological gain. Which I think if you laid that unspoken history out to most American that way, they'd have to agee with me.

That's where I com from. Don't give me flag draped, God fearing, apple pie tasting fantasy and rhetoric, just give me the facts laid bare and not some feel good comforting illusion designed to stave off the very real terror some of us fear right now. If that's 'America-hating', then I guess that'll have to be your opinion.

Yeah, it's heavy. It has to be IMO. Because as we're constantly reminded, these are extraordinary times. And I think a lot of people of my political persuation are finding that in these 'extraordinary times' you have to kind of shout to be heard above the official line..



...and the fact that I feel people seem to want to beleive any reassuring thing they're told nowadays. Like yes, Iraq was responsible for 9/11, yes they had WMD's but we took care of that, yes you're safer now that Iraq is tilting towards islamic theocracy in spite of their so called [U.S. picked] democracy. Yes, you're safer if we don't mention Osama Bin Laden or Afghanistan anymore. Just rest assured that we captured most of Al Queda and they haven't replaced those leaders already. Rest assured that all those Iraqi's fighting us would be in New York killing you if not for the war. If you vote for him and not me, you will DIE!

I myself think this here is debate designed to consider that things aern't quite as we're being told. Really, I can't understand why some here apparenly prefer the echoing of their POV and anything apart from that is everything from a distracting annoyance to me wanting to prove i'm absolutely right (funny how others on the right don't get that accusation..why, well it must be BECAUSE THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!) to me flat out being a commie traitor.

Deal.

p.s. This story reflects some of that hypocritical attitude and our as of yet unchanged history of decidely non-democratic interference in other countries affairs, that I was talking about. This is a countries transition to REAL democracy, despite our meddling.

And of course the story of the United Fruit Comapny in Guatemala and the near-coup in Venezuela 2 years ago. But that's hating America if we decide to comment on history that is well known and discussed in most of the world but largely unknown here at home because to discuss it and thus try to remedy this attitude among our leaders would be 'hating America'. Better to think people 'hate us for our freedom' and leave it at that.

And that's the essense of debate. Bringing up things not regularly discussed and trying to make them fit into a conversation. Simply trusting press releases and speeches isn't enough IMO Going on faith isn't enough. You have to consider history ALL OF IT, and also consider everything you're told with a degree of skepticism. Be it from the right or the left wing. I think skepticism and questioning authority is the root of democracy and trust and obedience is the root of authoritarianism. I think we're being led though down a slope though of thinking distrust and questioning our leadership as being the path towards treason and our own destruction.



I don't think you're a traitor, but I'm glad you answered teh true question of this thread. Why are all the conservitives wrong in the manner in which they debate and why are you right? We love you anyway.

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