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Quote:
Batwoman said:
I've got news for people, the word holidays comes from the word, Holy.
Not that I like the idea of a company, or anyone for that matter, telling me or anyone else they can't say Merry Christmas.
Okay, but I don't understand your point here. I mean, holidays does come from the word holy, though it doesn't really mean that. Martin Luthor King Jr.'s birthday is a holiday, but it ain't holy.
Quote:
Batwoman said:
If I was still in retail and someone pulled that crap with me, I'd still say Merry Christmas just to spite my employers. If they tried to fire me over it, they'd have another think coming.
What?
First, if they want to fire you, they'll just fire you--there is no "try." What're you gonna do, refuse to stop working for them?
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I assume by "try", Batwoman is saying that she feels she would have a claim for religious discrimination against her employer.
That's an interesting question.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I can't picture anyone, other than some racist perhaps, getting offended at someone saying "Happy Martin Luther King day," for example.
So why can't we say "merry Christmas" in the same spirit?
Because the name Christmas (and thus the entire holiday) IS based on the idea that Jesus was Christ. Non-Christians don't believe that. Many non-Christians see him as someone who presented himself as something he was not, and all of that falsehood is represented by this day.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I assume by "try", Batwoman is saying that she feels she would have a claim for religious discrimination against her employer.
That's an interesting question.
I don't see how she would if they allow her to say "happy holidays," a term which not only covers her holiday, but others as well.
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The next time the atheists have a good two-thousand-year run and profoundly alter the course of history in every part of the world, they have my full permission to pick and choose what holidays go on the calendar.
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Every historical figure is subject to some controversy.
Some people think Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus and prosecution of the civil war was an unnecessary cure to the evils of slavery.
Some people think Columbus committed genocide against indigeous people.
Some people think King was a race baiter, communist and fraud.
Valentines Day and Halloween both started out as Christian holidays. But over the years they've become secular celebrations.
Why can't Christmas?
In fact, hasn't Christmas?
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To some extent it has, but with all the people you mentioned, there's still a majority position by either the people who are writing history or the people who are funding what's making history. Be that as it may.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I assume by "try", Batwoman is saying that she feels she would have a claim for religious discrimination against her employer.
That's an interesting question.
Quote:
Wednesday said:I don't see how she would if they allow her to say "happy holidays," a term which not only covers her holiday, but others as well.
You may be right. I'm simply noting that someone might be able to make a claim that their religion requires them to say "Merry Christmas" and the employer is being discriminatory by not letting her freely express herself.
It's sort of like the idea that you can't stop an employee from wearing a crucifix or a star of david.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
To some extent it has, but with all the people you mentioned, there's still a majority position by either the people who are writing history or the people who are funding what's making history. Be that as it may.
The majority position in the U.S. is that Jesus is a person worthy of respect and celebration for his teachings. That positon would appear to be irrespective of claimed divinity.
Basically, what I'm saying is why CAN'T we treat Christmas both ways?
Why can't the Christians view it as "birth of messiah" and everyone else view it as "birth of man of peace"?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-12-24 5:39 AM.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Okay, but I don't understand your point here. I mean, holidays does come from the word holy, though it doesn't really mean that. Martin Luthor King Jr.'s birthday is a holiday, but it ain't holy.
Does this mean you disagree with the persistent tactic of people trying to bring up Saturnalia to try and denominate Christmas as a Christian holiday?
If so, dat's coo'.
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The simple fact is, whether you believe he was the Messiah or not, Jesus is generally regarded as a all-around nice guy, and when someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", they are wishing you well and not thinking about themselves for a change. I can see how our culture would want to put a stop to that..... 
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
I assume by "try", Batwoman is saying that she feels she would have a claim for religious discrimination against her employer.
That's an interesting question.
Quote:
Wednesday said:I don't see how she would if they allow her to say "happy holidays," a term which not only covers her holiday, but others as well.
You may be right. I'm simply noting that someone might be able to make a claim that their religion requires them to say "Merry Christmas" and the employer is being discriminatory by not letting her freely express herself.
It's sort of like the idea that you can't stop an employee from wearing a crucifix or a star of david.
Exactly. Along the lines of an employer can't fire you for being sick. They do that, they can get sued big time.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Does this mean you disagree with the persistent tactic of people trying to bring up Saturnalia to try and denominate Christmas as a Christian holiday?
If so, dat's coo'.
Even if Christians set December 25th as Christmas based on Saturnalia, Christmas is still a Christian holiday, in my opinion.
It's influenced by other religions and cultures, but Christmas is Christian.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
It's sort of like the idea that you can't stop an employee from wearing a crucifix or a star of david.
However, I believe an employer can require an employee to tuck a crucifix or Star of David under his or her shirt.
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Exactly. Along the lines of an employer can't fire you for being sick. They do that, they can get sued big time.
Firing an employee for being sick and firing an employee for saying "Merry Christmas" aren't really covered by the same thing.
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Quote:
King Snarf said:
The simple fact is, whether you believe he was the Messiah or not, Jesus is generally regarded as a all-around nice guy, and when someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", they are wishing you well and not thinking about themselves for a change. I can see how our culture would want to put a stop to that.....
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Because the name Christmas (and thus the entire holiday) IS based on the idea that Jesus was Christ. Non-Christians don't believe that. Many non-Christians see him as someone who presented himself as something he was not, and all of that falsehood is represented by this day.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
No.
Yes.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Please see the preceding 11 pages for the reason the answer is no.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
To some extent it has, but with all the people you mentioned, there's still a majority position by either the people who are writing history or the people who are funding what's making history. Be that as it may.
The majority position in the U.S. is that Jesus is a person worthy of respect and celebration for his teachings. That positon would appear to be irrespective of claimed divinity.
Basically, what I'm saying is why CAN'T we treat Christmas both ways?
Why can't the Christians view it as "birth of messiah" and everyone else view it as "birth of man of peace"?
  
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Does this mean you disagree with the persistent tactic of people trying to bring up Saturnalia to try and denominate Christmas as a Christian holiday?
If so, dat's coo'.
Even if Christians set December 25th as Christmas based on Saturnalia, Christmas is still a Christian holiday, in my opinion.
It's influenced by other religions and cultures, but Christmas is Christian.
But Christmas has become a larger socio-historial phenomenon in the U.S. than just and only a day to celebrate Jesus' birthday.
So in the U.S., where there is no legal establishment of a formal religion, we can celebrate Christmas for a variety of reasons, only one of which is religious.
Plus, we get the day off of work even if we're not Christian.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Since there clearly isn't anything else left to add to this wonderfully ineffectual internet conversation, I would just like to say that I hate all holidays(with the possible exception of Kazoo Day), and that it is my fondest wish that you all suffer miserably at the hands of your families and hated ones. Furthermore, if I am unfortunate enough to ever see any of you, and you actually wish me a merry or happy Christmas/Chanukkah/Kwanza/etc, I swear on the grave of Jack Lord that I will stab you in the heart with the nearest semi-blunt object.
Thanks.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:...the name Christmas (and thus the entire holiday) IS based on the idea that Jesus was Christ. Non-Christians don't believe that. ...
The names of St. Valentines Day and St. Patricks' Day (and thus the entire holidays) ARE based on the idea that each man was holy. Non-Christians don't believe that. But most non-Christians have no problem with either of those holidays. If non-Christians can hand out boxes of chocoloate hearts and drink green beer they can just as easily treat Christmas as a secular holiday with religious origins.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Please see the preceding 11 pages for the reason the answer is no.
no.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Since there clearly isn't anything else left to add to this wonderfully ineffectual internet conversation, I would just like to say that I hate all holidays(with the possible exception of Kazoo Day), and that it is my fondest wish that you all suffer miserably at the hands of your families and hated ones. Furthermore, if I am unfortunate enough to ever see any of you, and you actually wish me a merry or happy Christmas/Chanukkah/Kwanza/etc, I swear on the grave of Jack Lord that I will stab you in the heart with the nearest semi-blunt object.
Thanks.
Merry Christmas  .
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gawd bless us ev'ry one guvner!
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Since there clearly isn't anything else left to add to this wonderfully ineffectual internet conversation, I would just like to say that I hate all holidays(with the possible exception of Kazoo Day), and that it is my fondest wish that you all suffer MISERABLY at the hands of your families and hated ones(check....evil Aunt Iris is in town and we 'might' go over there tonight...yucks!). Furthermore, if I am unfortunate enough to ever see any of you (awww, you don't mean it  ), and you actually wish me a merry or happy Christmas/Chanukkah/Kwanza/etc, I swear on the grave of Jack Lord that I will stab you in the heart with the nearest semi-blunt object (nice touch btw.....and great use of visual imagery ;p).
Thanks.
Rack the Animals. Awesomest, hoiliday quote EVER!
Anyway, I wuv animals...........when are you comin' to Texas again?!? Judging by the weather, I'd say you weren't here for Christmas :P
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Even if Christians set December 25th as Christmas based on Saturnalia, Christmas is still a Christian holiday, in my opinion.
It's influenced by other religions and cultures, but Christmas is Christian.
Even though I disagree with your agreement towards the idea that Christmas was originally based on Saturnalia, I'm extraordinarily jubilant that you see the present intent of Christmas as Christian over the conviction of its alleged roots in paganism.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Animalman said:
Since there clearly isn't anything else left to add to this wonderfully ineffectual internet conversation, I would just like to say that I hate all holidays(with the possible exception of Kazoo Day), and that it is my fondest wish that you all suffer miserably at the hands of your families and hated ones. Furthermore, if I am unfortunate enough to ever see any of you, and you actually wish me a merry or happy Christmas/Chanukkah/Kwanza/etc, I swear on the grave of Jack Lord that I will stab you in the heart with the nearest semi-blunt object.
Thanks.
Merry Christmas .
(you should know better than to basically dare to be wished anything here!)
Fair play!
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Even if Christians set December 25th as Christmas based on Saturnalia, Christmas is still a Christian holiday, in my opinion.
It's influenced by other religions and cultures, but Christmas is Christian.
Even though I disagree with your agreement towards the idea that Christmas was originally based on Saturnalia, I'm extraordinarily jubilant that you see the present intent of Christmas as Christian over the conviction of its alleged roots in paganism.
I can see where you'd think I was saying so, but I never said I believe Christmas was originally based on Saturnalia. I only said "even if" because I'm not closed to the idea that Christmas was set on the date of December 25th since the date was already a pagan holiday, and doing so would not eliminate a holiday in the process of bringing new religion to the Roman population. If that's the case, then it was a smart move.
And again it wouldn't make the holiday any more pagan, in my opinion, and it wouldn't take away from Christmas.
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Quote:
PrincessElisa said:
Rack the Animals. Awesomest, hoiliday quote EVER!
Anyway, I wuv animals...........when are you comin' to Texas again?!? Judging by the weather, I'd say you weren't here for Christmas :P
I've been in town since last Thursday. I managed to escape from Halloween and Thanksgiving festivities(I spent Thanksgiving in Mexico, blissfully unencumbered), but I had no such luck with this particular holiday.
I arrived home and was instantly showered with affection and praise. Yesterday, I was forced to accept piles of gifts and compelled to gorge myself on table after table of food and drink. Today, I was dragged to various electronic stores so I could take advantage of the day after Christmas sales, and my kidnappers refused to allow me to pay for anything. Mercifully, the horror ends next week and I can go home to my roach-infested apartment and hearty supply of expired milk. I was actually beginning to get used the feel of silk sheets and the absence of midnight police raids next door.
Thank Gob I only have to endure all that once a year.
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Quote:
Animalys said:
I've been in town since last Thursday. And you didn't call me *weeps sorrowfully* I managed to escape from Halloween and Thanksgiving festivities(I spent Thanksgiving in Mexico, blissfully unencumbered), but I had no such luck with this particular holiday.
I arrived home and was instantly showered with affection and praise. Yesterday, I was forced to accept piles of gifts and compelled to gorge myself on table after table of food and drink. Today, I was dragged to various electronic stores so I could take advantage of the day after Christmas sales, and my kidnappers refused to allow me to pay for anything. Mercifully, the horror ends next week and I can go home to my roach-infested apartment and hearty supply of expired milk. I was actually beginning to get used the feel of silk sheets and the absence of midnight police raids next door.
Thank Gob I only have to endure all that once a year.
When do we get to see this Christmas journal of horrific family time anyway? You are quite the writer, ya know
And if you're going to be in town for another week.......
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Even if Christians set December 25th as Christmas based on Saturnalia, Christmas is still a Christian holiday, in my opinion.
It's influenced by other religions and cultures, but Christmas is Christian.
Even though I disagree with your agreement towards the idea that Christmas was originally based on Saturnalia, I'm extraordinarily jubilant that you see the present intent of Christmas as Christian over the conviction of its alleged roots in paganism.
I can see where you'd think I was saying so, but I never said I believe Christmas was originally based on Saturnalia. I only said "even if" because I'm not closed to the idea that Christmas was set on the date of December 25th since the date was already a pagan holiday, and doing so would not eliminate a holiday in the process of bringing new religion to the Roman population. If that's the case, then it was a smart move.
And again it wouldn't make the holiday any more pagan, in my opinion, and it wouldn't take away from Christmas.
The date WAS based on Saturnalia, even alot fo the traditions (evergreens, holly and teh such) I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue a Dec 25th birthday for Jesus, but it doesn't change the object of worship. It's just a good time to celebrate, so we co-opted it.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Are you saying based around the date, or based on the holiday?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Are you saying based around the date, or based on the holiday?
The date and some customs. The objective of teh holidays are in no way related.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Actually, some Jehovah's witness gave me a copy of the Watchtower while I was sitting at the trolley stop and, having nothing else to read, I read it. They claim that Jesus was probably born around the beginning of October.
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Well, they have yet to get anything right yet. The odds of Jesus being born anywhere near winter is slim as all the sheep were outside and Mary and Joseph chose the time of year to make a long outdoor journey. It was probobly between April and May.
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I've always thought the date to be pretty irrelevant. From the Christian point of view surely it is just a day (arbitrary or not) to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
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Any Christian should be able to celebrate the birth of Jesus at any moment at any time.
One need not go to church to commune with the Lord, right?
We all wear a green carnation.
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true, but i like having a day when we shut down as much as we can of our horribly commercialised life. Not that I like it from a religious point of view, but I'd think then I'd like it more.
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