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Nonoxynol9 said:
Satan.
For me, the "Satan-God" concept falls apart when Christians argue that God is all powerful, yet He's waging this war with Satan. If He's all powerful, why can't He win this war? If He's all powerful, how can He possible have an equal in the Cosmos? If NOTHING anywhere exists without God's permission, then how can He permit this Evil?
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For example, Jim Jackson. You have kids. You love them, you're raising them as best you can. But what happens if they grow up and, for some unknowable or unforseeable reason, they turn on you. <snip> Would you HONESTLY do that to your own children? HELL NO!
Of course not.
But I will never consign my children to Hell. Theoretically, God will do that if you don't ask for forgiveness, accept Jesus, and all that.
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(Hope you don't mind that I used you as an example, Jim! I remember you mentioning you had kids. )
I mention them all the time LOL. No, it's ok.
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That's how I feel God feels towards us.
And thus, you make God in your image rather than Him making you in His. And I think we do this with "God" all the time.
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Animalman said:
I'd like to think of myself as a good, kind person. I have no idea if I have or will have lived up to the expectations of a higher being, and, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd really want or care to. Perahps the biggest reason why I am doubtful about the existence of a God is because of the typical modern characterization of God as being benevelont and loving. With all the awful things that go on in the world(war, hunger, disease, genocide, etc), I just can't see it. Even if I did accept the presence of a God, I don't believe I could accept a being that displays such callousness as an appropriate moral guideline.
So if there was a God you would consider yourself his moral superior.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
So if there was a God you would consider yourself his moral superior.
I think what Animalman is saying is that he, animalman, is doing the best he can given his own human abilities and weaknesses.
I don't see anything in what he said as claiming any kind of moral superiority.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
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Nonoxynol9 said:
Satan.
For me, the "Satan-God" concept falls apart when Christians argue that God is all powerful, yet He's waging this war with Satan. If He's all powerful, why can't He win this war? If He's all powerful, how can He possible have an equal in the Cosmos? If NOTHING anywhere exists without God's permission, then how can He permit this Evil?
God's not waging a war. Satan is. And the entire reason he's still potent is because humanity opened itself up to him.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
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Animalman said:
I'd like to think of myself as a good, kind person. I have no idea if I have or will have lived up to the expectations of a higher being, and, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd really want or care to. Perahps the biggest reason why I am doubtful about the existence of a God is because of the typical modern characterization of God as being benevelont and loving. With all the awful things that go on in the world(war, hunger, disease, genocide, etc), I just can't see it. Even if I did accept the presence of a God, I don't believe I could accept a being that displays such callousness as an appropriate moral guideline.
So if there was a God you would consider yourself his moral superior.
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Jim Jackson said:
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Nonoxynol9 said:
Satan.
For me, the "Satan-God" concept falls apart when Christians argue that God is all powerful, yet He's waging this war with Satan. If He's all powerful, why can't He win this war? If He's all powerful, how can He possible have an equal in the Cosmos? If NOTHING anywhere exists without God's permission, then how can He permit this Evil?
I wouldn't say that the Christian belief falls apart here since what you've described isn't the Christian concept. Satan isn't God's equal and God isn't trying to win the war against him. He allready won it, but God is long-suffering. The problems in this world aren't caused by Satan, thier caused by man. Satan doesn't murder people, people do. Nor does Satan make people sin, all he does is temp people and you can hardly temp a good person to do evil. When you do something wrong, lets not even say what's wrong according to the Bible, but what you yourself consider wrong, you don't do it because you were forced by some outside entity, you do it because you as well as me are fundamentaly flawed. Rather than wipe the world out or give us a universal wind wipe or lobotomy, God has chosen to be pacient with us and give us a chance to sort things out. I'm sure you as most parrents see the value in letting your kids make some mistakes for themselves.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Satan.
For me, the "Satan-God" concept falls apart when Christians argue that God is all powerful, yet He's waging this war with Satan. If He's all powerful, why can't He win this war? If He's all powerful, how can He possible have an equal in the Cosmos? If NOTHING anywhere exists without God's permission, then how can He permit this Evil?
Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Satan is God's equal. A common misconception.
There WAS a War in Heaven, Lucifer's Rebellion against God. He was cast down from Heaven and thrown into Hell, where he currently resides.
The War was Fought. The War was Won.
Satan is not God's equal because Satan is a created being. And God did not create Satan as we know him (per se). Satan was once Lucifer, the most beautiful of all the Archangels, and he was in charge of (ironically enough) Music. Because God gave Lucifer a Free Will, he eventually grew jealous of God and rebelled. Lucifer rallied a third of the Angels behind him, but was cast out of Heaven for his actions. From that moment on, he became Satan. Sort of like how Anakin Skywalker turned into Darth Vader. 
I hesitate to quote Scripture because a lot of people argue that it's blowing into your own sails, but if you've read the Book of Revelation you'd know that there is a Final Battle, also known as Armageddon; but it's pretty much one-sided. The outcome has already been declared. According to the Bible, God WILL win. There will be no "struggle for power" between God and Satan. According to Revelation, there isn't even the slightest chance that Satan might win. The Book goes on to state that Satan is bound, as are the Anti-Christ, False Prophet, and even Hell itself, and all are thrown into the Lake of Fire. God then proceeds to destroy this Universe, and create a brand new one.
But like I said earlier, this yin-yang-like balance between Good and Evil is a common misconception. Satan is not as powerful as God.
So why does God allow Satan to exist? I don't know. I'm only Billy Heaning, 25-year-old server at Outback steakhouse and reader of pulp space opera.
Non
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Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Satan is not God's equal because Satan is a created being. And God did not create Satan as we know him (per se). Satan was once Lucifer, the most beautiful of all the Archangels, and he was in charge of (ironically enough) Music. Because God gave Lucifer a Free Will, he eventually grew jealous of God and rebelled. Lucifer rallied a third of the Angels behind him, but was cast out of Heaven for his actions. From that moment on, he became Satan. Sort of like how Anakin Skywalker turned into Darth Vader.
Is this in the Bible or is this John Milton from Paradise Lost?
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wannabuyamonkey said:
I wouldn't say that the Christian belief falls apart here
I know you wouldn't.
And I have met many Christians who say in fact my characterization is accurate.
How else does one explain all these denominations? Not even all Christians are in agreement about "what is Christianity."
I judge the Cosmos the best I can given whatever intellectual ability any Supreme Power bestowed on me. If it's inadequate, blame the maker, not the watch.
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Jim Jackson said:
Of course not.
But I will never consign my children to Hell. Theoretically, God will do that if you don't ask for forgiveness, accept Jesus, and all that.
Ok. Yeah, you got a point. Don't know how to even begin to explain that, so I won't even try.
But I think it's odd that Christianity is the only religion that requires a Savior to forgive you of your sins. Anyone know of any other religion that requires you to "be saved"?
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Nonoxynol9 said:
That's how I feel God feels towards us.
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Jim Jackson said:
And thus, you make God in your image rather than Him making you in His. And I think we do this with "God" all the time.
Another point taken.
I don't mean to contradict my earlier post, but I only wrote that so people might understand the anology better. I wasn't trying to humanify God.
Non
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Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
So if there was a God you would consider yourself his moral superior.
I think what Animalman is saying is that he, animalman, is doing the best he can given his own human abilities and weaknesses.
I don't see anything in what he said as claiming any kind of moral superiority.
I'm sure is is saying what you say he is, but in addition he added:
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Even if I did accept the presence of a God, I don't believe I could accept a being that displays such callousness as an appropriate moral guideline.
wich is clearly claiming moral superiority. He's saying he could not accept God due to what he believes is a moral lack in the Creator. Wich by the way is his right I just wanted to help siplify it so that he can get right to the point when justifying himself before God. Instead of monolouging (stolen from the Incredibles) He can just say, "I am your moral superior". Most people try to take the long rout and list all the failings in the world.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Jim Jackson said:
Is this in the Bible or is this John Milton from Paradise Lost?
Funny you mention that. I thought you would.
I'm an English major. I've read both. The Bible more, but I guess I do see a little bit of Milton coming thru there.
Non
Last edited by Nonoxynol9; 2004-12-30 5:25 PM.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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Even if I did accept the presence of a God, I don't believe I could accept a being that displays such callousness as an appropriate moral guideline.
wich is clearly claiming moral superiority. He's saying he could not accept God due to what he believes is a moral lack in the Creator. Wich by the way is his right I just wanted to help siplify it so that he can get right to the point when justifying himself before God. Instead of monolouging (stolen from the Incredibles) He can just say, "I am your moral superior". Most people try to take the long rout and list all the failings in the world.
Callousness does not mean or beget lack of morality.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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Even if I did accept the presence of a God, I don't believe I could accept a being that displays such callousness as an appropriate moral guideline.
wich is clearly claiming moral superiority.
I see it as claiming a moral uncertainty. He says, "I don't believe," which clearly does not convey a certainty.
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Nonoxynol9 said:Funny you mention that. I thought you would.
I would hate to disappoint...
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-12-30 5:32 PM.
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Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
I wouldn't say that the Christian belief falls apart here
I know you wouldn't.
And I have met many Christians who say in fact my characterization is accurate.
How else does one explain all these denominations? Not even all Christians are in agreement about "what is Christianity."
I judge the Cosmos the best I can given whatever intellectual ability any Supreme Power bestowed on me. If it's inadequate, blame the maker, not the watch.
And I have met many Christians who say in fact my characterization is accurate.
I have never met a Christian who believes that God and the devil are equal (that's dualism, Christianity is Monotheistic). If that is the case (and not just an invention for the sake of argument) then they are confused in thier faith because the Bible wich is the Christians Holy text clearly states otherwise, so your friends don't prove that Christians believe what you claim they do it just proves your friends are ignorant to the doctrines of the faith they claim. For the record my father would claim he's a CHRISTian even though he doesn't believe in CHRIST, so alot of people say alot of things.
How else does one explain all these denominations? Not even all Christians are in agreement about "what is Christianity."
How ELSE does one explain different denominations? How would anyone define the existance of denominations as having anything to do with someone somewhere being confused as to Satans power. Now seeing as how I, unlike many people who make this argument, acctually know what the divisions between the denominations are allow me to demonstrate how one explains all these denominations, so that you may lay this one to rest. Fist of all contrary to your assertion all Christian denominations agree on one thinng wich is "What is Christianity" Wich is the the Omnipitance and Omnicience of God, the Goddness of God the Diety of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of Justification by faith. Where they differ is in how Christianity is practiced along with minor points of doctrine, but we still recognise each other as fellow Christians. For example my denomination believes that it's appropriate to baptise the children of believers as infants and that watter run over the head is symbolic. Baptists on the otherhand believe in emersion at an age of understanding, Some believe in spiritual gifts being practiced today such as healings or prophesy or speaking in toungs, some believe those have ended, some believe it's innapropriate to drink alchohol or dance or see movies others see nothing wrong with these. There are a number of differences between Christian denominations, but thier ultimate unity and understanding is often overlooked by outside observers and i confess that that's unfortunate.
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I judge the Cosmos the best I can given whatever intellectual ability any Supreme Power bestowed on me. If it's inadequate, blame the maker, not the watch.
A watchmaker doesn't bestow upon a watch the ability to think for itself and therefore the ability to reject truth. just because God grants you a free will doesn't mean that he's to blame for what you do with it. This sounds an awfull lot like what the secular phychological community would refer to as "Blame shifting".
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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See Jim, God could have whiped Satan out of existence for his arrogance in challenging God...but what would that prove? That he was a harsh and domineering despot? He had to let these events unfold as they would for all the universe to witness the righteousness of His will. He had to let hunmanity fall into it's debauchery so that all could see his will was not so much a burden as a set of guidlines necessary to humanity. This is the reason for the 'war'. It's like when a parent lets his children make the wrong descision, just so that the next time they are faced with a similar choice later in life they will know the outcome of thier actions.
There is no 'war', just a choice each and every one of us has to make.
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As an athiest I will say that I know for certain I will never pray to god.
Even when dying or having a near death experience will not change this.
Some of you might question how I know this,but all I will say is I have very strong reasons for being an atheist & I do not fear death,its inevitable so why fear it?
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wannabuyamonkey said:
A watchmaker doesn't bestow upon a watch the ability to think for itself and therefore the ability to reject truth. just because God grants you a free will doesn't mean that he's to blame for what you do with it. This sounds an awfull lot like what the secular phychological community would refer to as "Blame shifting".
I reiterate...I do the best I can in assessing the Nature of Things. If I fall short in God's eyes, it means I fell short with the wherewithall He gave me. I don't assess any "blame" on that at all. It is just fact.
If He wants me to know His Truth, then he needs to be clear on it. I'm sure the Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Buddhist, et al. would also argue that they have a monopoly on the Truth, too.
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klinton said:
It's like when a parent lets his children make the wrong descision, just so that the next time they are faced with a similar choice later in life they will know the outcome of thier actions.
You guys realize how many times you all have invoked the God-as-parent-man-as-child metaphor? It's classic. We need God/Daddy to protect us from the Unknown. It means Christians may not operate out of a search for Truth, but out of a need for Safety.
Just thinking out loud...
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Jim Jackson said:
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klinton said:
It's like when a parent lets his children make the wrong descision, just so that the next time they are faced with a similar choice later in life they will know the outcome of thier actions.
You guys realize how many times you all have invoked the God-as-parent-man-as-child metaphor? It's classic. We need God/Daddy to protect us from the Unknown. It means Christians may not operate out of a search for Truth, but out of a need for Safety.
Just thinking out loud...
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As an athiest I will say that I know for certain I will never pray to god.
Even when dying or having a near death experience will not change this.
Some of you might question how I know this,but all I will say is I have very strong reasons for being an atheist & I do not fear death,its inevitable so why fear it?
I would like to make a general comment, but is there anything more you can say regarding your reasons? Is it a reaction against someone who either is or claims to be a follower of His, is it because of a personal loss of a loved one or something Unanswered prayer? You don't have to be really specific, but i am sincerely currious as to your reason. I mean from what you've said it could very well have been you've been transported to the hereafter and saw personally that the throne was vacant.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
A watchmaker doesn't bestow upon a watch the ability to think for itself and therefore the ability to reject truth. just because God grants you a free will doesn't mean that he's to blame for what you do with it. This sounds an awfull lot like what the secular phychological community would refer to as "Blame shifting".
I reiterate...I do the best I can in assessing the Nature of Things. If I fall short in God's eyes, it means I fell short with the wherewithall He gave me. I don't assess any "blame" on that at all. It is just fact.
If He wants me to know His Truth, then he needs to be clear on it. I'm sure the Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Buddhist, et al. would also argue that they have a monopoly on the Truth, too.
Yes, but if God gives you "enough" and you closed your eyes and said you wouldn't believe unless God gave you more, then you aren't less culpable, but more so. God gave you the ability to know right from wrong (you've demonstrated that while you and i may differ on some things you do understand the difference) as he's given me the same ability to know right from wrong, but I do wrong, who's shoulders does that burden fall on, mine or His?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
It's like when a parent lets his children make the wrong descision, just so that the next time they are faced with a similar choice later in life they will know the outcome of thier actions.
You guys realize how many times you all have invoked the God-as-parent-man-as-child metaphor? It's classic. We need God/Daddy to protect us from the Unknown. It means Christians may not operate out of a search for Truth, but out of a need for Safety.
Just thinking out loud...
Ahem.......Bullshit.
I've met more en' a few of my own religion and they hone no such reasons nor do I. And I'm gonna go so far as to say that the number of Christians who do think the way you hypothesize are of the smallest ratio--If that mentality does exist within the Christian community.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
It's like when a parent lets his children make the wrong descision, just so that the next time they are faced with a similar choice later in life they will know the outcome of thier actions.
You guys realize how many times you all have invoked the God-as-parent-man-as-child metaphor? It's classic. We need God/Daddy to protect us from the Unknown. It means Christians may not operate out of a search for Truth, but out of a need for Safety.
Just thinking out loud...
Your children regard you as thier parrent and rely on you for thier safety. Does that in any way shape or form negate the truth of your existance? I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is. Scientists research cures for disease and vaccinations against viruses out of a need for safety does this mean they don't opperate out of a search for the truth. You seem to imply the possibility that the two are mutually exclusive I would say that "Christians operate out of a search for Truth AND out of a need for Safety.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is.
I'd challenge that.
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Pariah said:
Ahem.......Bullshit.
Of course you're gonna say that. It's too dangerous to your psyche to admit otherwise. Defense mechanisms are wonderful things! And of course, if you dare doubt, then you've got to beg forgiveness...
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Your children regard you as thier parrent and rely on you for thier safety.
Yes, but my children know me and experience me on an empirical level. With God, it's all faith. So with faith, you reach for the best, surest, safest way of thinking you can come up with...the classic parent-child metaphor.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Ahem.......Bullshit.
Of course you're gonna say that. It's too dangerous to your psyche to admit otherwise. Defense mechanisms are wonderful things! And of course, if you dare doubt, then you've got to beg forgiveness...
Maybe you missed the rest of my post.
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No, I saw it. I addressed it by mentioning defense mechanisms. No good Christian's going to easily admit to what I assert. Too dangerous, too scary.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Your children regard you as thier parrent and rely on you for thier safety.
Yes, but my children know me and experience me on an empirical level. With God, it's all faith. So with faith, you reach for the best, surest, safest way of thinking you can come up with...the classic parent-child metaphor.
That was quite an artfull dodge. You seem to have completely ignored the point I made. i even gave multiple examples so you would understand the point better, but you have to ignore them to make your point, so I'll refer anyone else reading to refer to my original post rather that your selective quote.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
No, I saw it. I addressed it by mentioning defense mechanisms. No good Christian's going to easily admit to what I assert. Too dangerous, too scary.
This coming from the guy who, well, just read my last post.... anyway this post reeks of contept. Implying the only reason people would regard you as wrong is because there scared 
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is.
I'd challenge that.
OK,.... let me know when you get around to it, because I'm not going to try and guess what your challenge would be and try to answer that.
Do or do not
-Yoda
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
No, I saw it. I addressed it by mentioning defense mechanisms. No good Christian's going to easily admit to what I assert. Too dangerous, too scary.
This coming from the guy who, well, just read my last post.... anyway this post reeks of contept. Implying the only reason people would regard you as wrong is because there scared
It isn't me. Much of the analysis on the pyschology of religion addresses the concept that humanity has created religion and fashioned that creation as the parent-child metaphor as a means of giving itself solace and peace.
It's just a theory. I'm not expressing contempt so much as I am expressing a psychological way of trying to understand why hunans are religious.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
[so I'll refer anyone else reading to refer to my original post rather that your selective quote.
You may refer anyone else to anything else you wish. You're no more a final arbiter of anything than I am.
Nyah!
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
[so I'll refer anyone else reading to refer to my original post rather that your selective quote.
You may refer anyone else to anything else you wish. You're no more a final arbiter of anything than I am.
Nyah!
I'm not claiming final arbitration in anything, you seem to missinterpret alot, I'm just refering my original post to anyone who acctually wants to challenge it or respond to it rather than missquote one small portion that may or may not suport thier claim while utterly dodging the challenge to your claim. I just think it's telling that you'll (in cotemptious tones) claim in response to some Christians response that Christians are too afraid to respond to the challenge of jim and the phychological community and yet you ignore and refuse to answer a legitimate challenge to your position. I didn't throw up a defense mechanism I simply demonstrated the logical errer or mutual exclusivity you made. Why wouldn't you address that instead of the much easier personal reaction? If I were one to assighn motive to individuals I would guess it's out of fear.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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You're the one who's misinterpreting.
I never issued a challenge to anyone on this subject. Nope. Didn't do it. I presented a theory as advanced in the psychology of religion. That's all. No challenge in there. If you took it as one, that's your gaffe.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
If I were one to assighn motive to individuals I would guess it's out of fear.
What do you think I'm afraid of?
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