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The afterlife is just too mysterious to wish away. A lot of athiests had hard lives (or, consequently, very well-to-do lives), or were screwed in the anus by organized religion... and for that, I apologize.
But I just think it's ironic.... I've known several athiests who questioned their beliefs when a) they almost died in a car accident, b) their siblings or family members almost died, or did die, or c) they were diagnosed with a terminal illness.
In almost every circumstance, they were angry and bitter and resentful towards the idea of God... But as the critical time drew closer and closer, their thoughts and ideas concerning the afterlife began to change.
What is is about the mystery of Death that makes us want to suddenly believe in God?
Is it a fear of our concept of hell?
Non
I got soul but I'm not a soldier.
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Fear of the unknown. If you have a faith, you have some hope that it doesn't all end. I, on the other hand, have always desired an end at death and have never desired a faith in a religion.
It is a personal hypothesis that religion is a mental evolution. When people were still living off the land and such, if a person had religion they might live longer. For instance, religion promotes common morality. If it's against the religion to murder people (unritualisticlly) then the community sharing the beliefs will survive mutually rather than all fending on their own or taking each other our undiscriminatingly. People with religous faith find purpose in the menial task of everyday life. There's something to look forward to. If you're good you are rewarded after death. Religion attacks the mentality of 'life sucks and then you die.' If there was no faith of post-mortem reward perhaps people wouldn't care so much about doing the little things. After all, why should it matter? You just die anyhow.
Another reason might be because they need a mommy/daddy figure to "make it all better." As children we all have the need to have a bigger stronger person care for us when we are in need of assistance (ie: broken arm or stomach flu). As adults we're expected to do it all ourselves (understandably). When something big comes up that we have no idea what to do about it (like, "holy shit I'm dieing!!!") we need god to kiss the boo boos and make them all better. Again, this would be a need that somehow evolved within us to differ from other animals.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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"There are no atheists in foxholes"
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Right. Athiests would not believe in going to heaven for a war and thus would not enlist.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Uschi said:
Fear of the unknown. If you have a faith, you have some hope that it doesn't all end. I, on the other hand, have always desired an end at death and have never desired a faith in a religion.
It is a personal hypothesis that religion is a mental evolution. When people were still living off the land and such, if a person had religion they might live longer. For instance, religion promotes common morality. If it's against the religion to murder people (unritualisticlly) then the community sharing the beliefs will survive mutually rather than all fending on their own or taking each other our undiscriminatingly. People with religous faith find purpose in the menial task of everyday life. There's something to look forward to. If you're good you are rewarded after death. Religion attacks the mentality of 'life sucks and then you die.' If there was no faith of post-mortem reward perhaps people wouldn't care so much about doing the little things. After all, why should it matter? You just die anyhow.
Another reason might be because they need a mommy/daddy figure to "make it all better." As children we all have the need to have a bigger stronger person care for us when we are in need of assistance (ie: broken arm or stomach flu). As adults we're expected to do it all ourselves (understandably). When something big comes up that we have no idea what to do about it (like, "holy shit I'm dieing!!!") we need god to kiss the boo boos and make them all better. Again, this would be a need that somehow evolved within us to differ from other animals.
So..............Are you athiest or agnostic?
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Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Is it a fear of our concept of hell?
I think more a fear that what we Are will stop being. Not that we'll experience eternal punishment, but that we will simply cease to exist. Our consciousnesses will end.
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That's about what I had typed before my internet connection went down.
Death is a scary thing. Very few people are comfortable with the idea of ceasing to be, and simply dissipating into nothingness(the exception being Buddhists, I suppose).
In my opinion, that's why religion exists. It was created so that people could feel better about growing old and dying, so that they don't have to come to terms with an existence that otherwise appears hopeless, meaningless and futile.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Death is a scary thing. Very few people are comfortable with the idea of ceasing to be, and simply dissipating into nothingness(the exception being Buddhists, I suppose).
Actually, to a Buddhist, Nothingness is Everything, and Everything is Nothing. So, in a roundabout way, when a Buddhist dies and his consciousness dissolves back into the Void... they are in fact joining with something, the cosmos, the re-birth phase... Ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead? Talk about some seriously frightening imagry (of course, it is repeated like a mantra that the visions seen after death -- such as five-headed flesh-eating monsters with a hundred titties holding skulls filled with blood and fire -- are merely projections of our own psychic image. If we can ignore them, they will leave, and we can be re-born.)
And Uschi raised some excellent points. Looking at it from a sociological/psychological/epistomological (sp?) perspective, there are hundreds of logical reasons for "man to invent God" (instead of the other way around).
But to me, and this is merely my opinion, all of man's best efforts to explain God's existence, or explain away his existence, via philosophy and logic, will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS fail, because, in the end, it's frail, mortal man tring to explain or rationalize the Great Unknowable Unknown.
In the end, it all comes down to this: nobody knows what's really going to happen 'till they're dead. We can't prove God exists empirically with our five senses, because that would bring God down to our level. God, to me, represents Infinity, Eternity... and how can man's finite mind EVER truly conceive Infinity?
Still, this is good discussion.
Non
I got soul but I'm not a soldier.
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My mother is Catholic and what little religion I have comes from her side. My father is more of an objectivist (for lack of better term). As a result, I'm agnostic at best.
My (Jewish) wife asks me if I'm worried about going to hell and I tell her "I'm a lawyer...they've probably already got my circle picked out and my pitchfork waiting."
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Quote:
Pariah said:
So..............Are you athiest or agnostic?
What's the difference between the two? I've never been able to figure it out.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Is it a fear of our concept of hell?
I think more a fear that what we Are will stop being. Not that we'll experience eternal punishment, but that we will simply cease to exist. Our consciousnesses will end.
Not at all. In fact, there's a huge part of me that wishes no God does exist.
I don't need to believe as people keep saying they do. I believe. Period.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
So..............Are you athiest or agnostic?
What's the difference between the two? I've never been able to figure it out.
Agnostics are atheists who hedge their bets... 
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Is it a fear of our concept of hell?
I think more a fear that what we Are will stop being. Not that we'll experience eternal punishment, but that we will simply cease to exist. Our consciousnesses will end.
Not at all. In fact, there's a huge part of me that wishes no God does exist.
I don't need to believe as people keep saying they do. I believe. Period.
OK, babe. I was generalizing. Your mileage may vary.
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Quote:
Poverty Lad said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
So..............Are you athiest or agnostic?
What's the difference between the two? I've never been able to figure it out.
Agnostics are atheists who hedge their bets...
Precisely.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
So..............Are you athiest or agnostic?
What's the difference between the two? I've never been able to figure it out.
Atheist..from the root a meaning NO or WITHOUT and theism, meaning GOD.
An atheist denies a Supreme Power.
Agnostic, coined by Thomas Huxley, from the root a meaning NO or WITHOUT, and gnosis meaning KNOWLEDGE. He applied the term agnostic to mean that we cannot know for certain about the existence of God.
An agnostic is, therefore, uncertain about a Supreme Power.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-12-29 6:42 PM.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
My (Jewish) wife
Are your kids Jewish? I guess formally they are, given that Judaism is considered to pass from the mother.
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i being athiest and knowing others who are usually hell and heaven are non existant. god nor soul are beliefs.
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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...................O.....taaaay.......
(And I thought you had spelling problems.)
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
So..............Are you athiest or agnostic?
What's the difference between the two? I've never been able to figure it out.
Atheist..from the root a meaning NO or WITHOUT and theism, meaning GOD.
An atheist denies a Supreme Power.
Agnostic, coined by Thomas Huxley, from the root a meaning NO or WITHOUT, and gnosis meaning KNOWLEDGE. He applied the term agnostic to mean that we cannot know for certain about the existence of God.
An agnostic is, therefore, uncertain about a Supreme Power.
This would be true if it weren't for so many atheists were only calling themselves agnostic and taking away all credibility from the term.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
My (Jewish) wife
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Are your kids Jewish? I guess formally they are, given that Judaism is considered to pass from the mother.
Well, my daughters are actually my stepdaughters and so my religion is sort of moot on that issue.
But, yeah, they are Jewish
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Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Actually, to a Buddhist, Nothingness is Everything, and Everything is Nothing. So, in a roundabout way, when a Buddhist dies and his consciousness dissolves back into the Void... they are in fact joining with something, the cosmos, the re-birth phase... Ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead? Talk about some seriously frightening imagry (of course, it is repeated like a mantra that the visions seen after death -- such as five-headed flesh-eating monsters with a hundred titties holding skulls filled with blood and fire -- are merely projections of our own psychic image. If we can ignore them, they will leave, and we can be re-born.)
I have not read that book, but Buddhism(as well as eastern philosophy in general) has always interested me, if only because it seems so different from most western religions.
Quote:
But to me, and this is merely my opinion, all of man's best efforts to explain God's existence, or explain away his existence, via philosophy and logic, will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS fail, because, in the end, it's frail, mortal man tring to explain or rationalize the Great Unknowable Unknown.
In the end, it all comes down to this: nobody knows what's really going to happen 'till they're dead. We can't prove God exists empirically with our five senses, because that would bring God down to our level. God, to me, represents Infinity, Eternity... and how can man's finite mind EVER truly conceive Infinity?
I agree on all counts. Man will never know for sure, at least, not in life.
On a personal note, I don't really think knowing whether or not there is a God would make any difference to me, other than giving me another person to blame for how fucked up the world is at times. It wouldn't affect my everyday life, and it certainly wouldn't alter my moral outlook. I try to be a good person becauase I think it's right, not because I'm worry about what God may or may not think.
Quote:
Pariah said:
This would be true if it weren't for so many atheists were only calling themselves agnostic and taking away all credibility from the term.
You really like telling people what they are and are not, don't you?
If it's not telling whomod he's not Christian it's telling me I'm not agnostic.
Get some real hobbies, please.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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i think your really gay.
Last edited by britneyspearsatemyshorts; 2004-12-29 11:56 PM.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
You really like telling people what they are and are not, don't you?
If it's not telling whomod he's not Christian it's telling me I'm not agnostic.
Get some real hobbies, please.
Did I.....mention you somewhere? 
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i think your really gay.
What's not to be happy about?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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RUN! HE"S GUNNA TRY AND MAN-FUCK US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Pariah: agnostic.
DarkKnight: the differance is not that I believe in no god as an athiest would, I have no belief in god. There could be a god and it wouldn't make a fig of differance because it has no bearing on my life. I don't try to prove god doesn't exist because that is just as futile as proving one does exist. I view religion as a way to know yourself better and be a better person. Spirituality is far removed from religous faith.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Uuuuuhhh okay. Pardon me for saying you got your terms all gargled and fucked.
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Ok, I'll gladly pardon morons.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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YOU'RE NOT THE GOVERNOR!!
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
RUN! HE"S GUNNA TRY AND MAN-FUCK US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Save us, Jebus!
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MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I think many (not "all" for you nitpickers) reject the idea of God out of fear. Fear that they don't measure up or a recognition that they can't live up to God's standard of virtue because not only do they sin against God's law, but they fail to even meet thier the standards they set for themselves. As they approach thier death-bed they begin to realise that pretending won't save them. Alot like a person who talks about bravery as long as they aren't faced with an acctual danger situation.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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I consider myself agnostic because, while I don't believe in a god, I don't think science has all the answers.
I consider myself a good person and certainly don't think I've done enough worng to piss of any reasonable god, should he/she/it exist.
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I'd like to think of myself as a good, kind person. I have no idea if I have or will have lived up to the expectations of a higher being, and, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd really want or care to. Perahps the biggest reason why I am doubtful about the existence of a God is because of the typical modern characterization of God as being benevelont and loving. With all the awful things that go on in the world(war, hunger, disease, genocide, etc), I just can't see it. Even if I did accept the presence of a God, I don't believe I could accept a being that displays such callousness as an appropriate moral guideline.
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My counselor told me that in a very high majority peoples' religous beliefs seem to stem from how they interact with their parents before the age of two. At that age your whole world is you and your family and at the top is your parents. As you get older you find your place in the universe the same way. God is the parent.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
RUN! HE"S GUNNA TRY AND MAN-FUCK US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know, you talk about man-sex stuff all the time.
You must be closeted. S'ok, I'll keep your secret.
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And suddenly the thread went where nobody felt comfortable... 
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Yes, the thought of BSAMS being gay...very disquieting.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 578 |
You know, it's so funny to hear all these agnostics and athiests base their beliefs on the philosophical dilemma, "If God is Good, why does He allow Bad things to happen, especially to good people?" It may be pointless to say this, especially since the majority of you choose not to believe in God.... but there IS someone out there other than God whose entire existence is defined by evil. He breathes it, he conducts it like a maestro standing over a symphony of Pure Unmitigated Malevolence. Satan. But, as many will point out, if one doesn't believe in God, the next logical step is to deny the existence of Satan. Which is all well and good. But the point I'm trying to make is, do you really think it's God up there in Heaven gettin' all pissy at us, causing earthquakes, tsunamis, bombings, murder, rape, kidnapping, racial bigotry, war, disease, famine, death, destruction, lions, tigers, and bears? Don't you think that's kind of petty, and more than that, a little, what's the word? Abusive? For example, Jim Jackson. You have kids. You love them, you're raising them as best you can. But what happens if they grow up and, for some unknowable or unforseeable reason, they turn on you. They break off contact, they blame you for all their problems, they get into trouble, who knows. Let's just call it a Worse Case Scenario. Now... even though they've turned their back on you, even though they refuse to communicate with you, even though they blame you for every bad thing that ever happened to them... Are you going to turn away from then, too? As a parent, are you going to throw up your hands and say, "Fine, fuck you then. You don't love me back, you're going to suffer. In the worst fuckin possible way." Would you HONESTLY do that to your own children? HELL NO! (Hope you don't mind that I used you as an example, Jim! I remember you mentioning you had kids.  ) That's how I feel God feels towards us. He's incredibly sad that we've all chosen to ignore Him, but instead of punishing us Himself, He's given us Free Will, a choice. We as human beings can aspire to become a more spiritual, godly, moral, uplifting race, which any religion hopes to perpetuate... Or we can choose do things On Our Own, from our Own Strength. And come on, people... How many of you are Really That Strong? If you think you are, you're delusional and only fooling yourself. Life will break you. Just wait and see. As for why bad things happen... They happen because we ALLOW them to happen. Outside of natural disasters, which is basically nature's way of balancing itself, GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR EVIL. So your brother was killed by a drunk driver (for an example). DON'T BLAME GOD. Blame the friggin' DRUNK DRIVER, for pete's sake. HE MADE THE CHOICE TO DRINK AND DRIVE. God did not sit the man down in a bar, force him to drink six beers, then get into a car and kill your brother. That's just one example. An easy answer would be to blame it all on Satan. But Satan's not effective if he's seen as some red-skinned, horned monster roiling in a pit of burning flames and sulfur. No, no, no. No one would ever voluntarily serve a Master like that (unless you're a severely disillusioned wanna-be Goth). Instead, Satan's greatest power is deception. His most amazing trick is convincing everyone that he does not exist. And neither does God. It's the oldest freakin' trick in the book. Even Batman took some lessons from that battleplan. An even craftier trick of Satan's is to convince others that, Ok, yeah, God's real, but He's a mean old turd who gets his kicks by tormenting us. Evil originates from Satan, but is made manifest in man himself. BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE BECAUSE PEOPLE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN. It has nothing to do with God. Non P.S. Even if you don't read the Bible, or don't believe in it, READ THE BOOK OF JOB. It's in the Old Testament. It explains EXACTLY and PERFECTLY why God allows bad things to happen to good people.
I got soul but I'm not a soldier.
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