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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is.
I'd challenge that.
OK,.... let me know when you get around to it, because I'm not going to try and guess what your challenge would be and try to answer that.
Do or do not
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I'd is short for "I would" (in this case), not "I will".
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
You're the one who's misinterpreting.
I never issued a challenge to anyone on this subject. Nope. Didn't do it. I presented a theory as advanced in the psychology of religion. That's all. No challenge in there. If you took it as one, that's your gaffe.
Sorry, Jim, but this --->
Quote:
It means Christians may not operate out of a search for Truth, but out of a need for Safety.
is a challenge. It's a challenge to teh Christian's claim that they believe thier beliefs to be true. Be proud and own it, don't be an ass and pretend you didn't issue a challenge. Oh and by the way, you still haven't been able to bring yourself to my challenge to your thesis.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
is a challenge. It's a challenge to teh Christian's claim that they believe thier beliefs to be true. Be proud and own it, don't be an ass and pretend you didn't issue a challenge. Oh and by the way, you still haven't been able to bring yourself to my challenge to your thesis.
Man, you do this all the time. You're always interpreting people's responses to you as "challenges."
I did not fucking issue a challenge. If you wish to interpret it as so, that's your effort, not mine. Carry the chip on your shoulder if you wish, but don't try to make me share it.
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I don't even know what your challenge to me was for crissakes!
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You've been very poetic this thread, Jim.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
If I were one to assighn motive to individuals I would guess it's out of fear.
What do you think I'm afraid of?
No clue, I don't nessesarily think you are affraid. I haven't yet come to a solid conlusion regarding your insistance on only responding to portions of what say and ignoreing those things that contradict what you claim.
So, what do you think all us Christians are affraid of?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
So, what do you think all us Christians are affraid of?
That there is nothing after death. No reward for suffering on earth. No punishment for the evil. No redemption for the not-evil. That our consciousnesses just vanish. No reunion with loved ones.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
No, I saw it. I addressed it by mentioning defense mechanisms. No good Christian's going to easily admit to what I assert. Too dangerous, too scary.
Are you saying that your proclaimed trait of most Christians is subconscious?
If so, that's still bullshit.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
No, I saw it. I addressed it by mentioning defense mechanisms. No good Christian's going to easily admit to what I assert. Too dangerous, too scary.
Are you saying that your proclaimed trait of most Christians is subconscious?
If so, that's still bullshit.
As you wish.
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1337 J03 says:
yooz r all teh Christian!
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
is a challenge. It's a challenge to teh Christian's claim that they believe thier beliefs to be true. Be proud and own it, don't be an ass and pretend you didn't issue a challenge. Oh and by the way, you still haven't been able to bring yourself to my challenge to your thesis.
Man, you do this all the time. You're always interpreting people's responses to you as "challenges."
I did not fucking issue a challenge. If you wish to interpret it as so, that's your effort, not mine. Carry the chip on your shoulder if you wish, but don't try to make me share it.
OK settle down, no need for you to get angry (but then there rarely is) If you want to say that Christians are affraid and that they don't seek the truth and then say it wasn't a challenge then you're just being silly. You believe that Christainity isn't factual, you say that Christians don't seek the truth to come to thier conclusions, that they are fearfull of the truth, but then you get pissed because i defined that as a challenge, fine i see how you are, you want to make a statement and then not have to defend that statement or agknoledge an answer to it. You want to get pissy about the word challenge and discuss everything but the substance of my response. Frankly that just serves to demonstrate the weakness of your claim. So tell me, how are you going to respond to this post? Are you going to call me fearfull reactionary, or perhaps I have a chip on my shoulder? I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I just call a spade a spade. I'm not upset about your chall... uh claim (is that OK?), because it's a false premise, as I demonstrated.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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I don't see that you have demonstrated it's a false premise. I'm not arguing that theory as fact either, but I don't see how you've refuted it.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
So, what do you think all us Christians are affraid of?
That there is nothing after death. No reward for suffering on earth. No punishment for the evil. No redemption for the not-evil. That our consciousnesses just vanish. No reunion with loved ones.
Perhaps some are. I have no problem admitting that people are fearfull. There are things I'm afraid of. I wish some people I know would go to Heaven, but I fear they won't. My belief doesn't fix that for me it validates that fear. I fear the wrath of God, ut I haven't concocted in my mind a God who is free of wrath.
Does teh possibility of fear negate any beliefs tha negate that fear. I fear dying in a car crash so I wear my seatbelt, does the fact that I fear death in my car mean my faith that the seatbelt will help is false? If so what do you do with the potential that people who dissbelieve God are acting out of fear. The fear of having to answer for thier sins. Now what you have is fear motivating opposite positions? It's nothing more than an ad-hominim falacy. Attemting to disprove a thesis based on the character of the adherants to it. Sorry, but it doesn't work. Everyone is afraid of something.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is.
I'd challenge that.
OK,.... let me know when you get around to it, because I'm not going to try and guess what your challenge would be and try to answer that.
Do or do not
-Yoda
Star Wars wisdom.
I'd is short for "I would" (in this case), not "I will".
You would, but you didn't.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I don't see that you have demonstrated it's a false premise. I'm not arguing that theory as fact either, but I don't see how you've refuted it.
I refuted the premise by demonstrating that it claims mutual exclusivity where none exists. Search for truth vs. search for protection or safety. I demonstrated that these weren't mutually exclusive by demonstrating areas where they both found.
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OK. But that still does not refute the general theory that religions have been developed by humanity as way of soothing fear.
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Nor does it refute the idea that humanity's earliest (developmentally) ways of soothing fear were to seek out the Parent. So the theory holds that humanity soothes its fear by creating a fictional Father on whom all our fears can be placed and assuaged.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
So if there was a God you would consider yourself his moral superior.
No, I don't claim supierority, I claim to follow my own set of guidelines. To say that one is "more moral" than the other would suggest that there's an objective truth, and I don't belive in any objective truth.
As I recall, we've already gone over this.
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Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
But the point I'm trying to make is, do you really think it's God up there in Heaven gettin' all pissy at us, causing earthquakes, tsunamis, bombings, murder, rape, kidnapping, racial bigotry, war, disease, famine, death, destruction, lions, tigers, and bears? Don't you think that's kind of petty, and more than that, a little, what's the word? Abusive?
Even the Old Testament portrays God as a vindictive, vengeful force, puninishing his "chosen people" when they did wrong.
Quote:
An easy answer would be to blame it all on Satan. But Satan's not effective if he's seen as some red-skinned, horned monster roiling in a pit of burning flames and sulfur. No, no, no. No one would ever voluntarily serve a Master like that (unless you're a severely disillusioned wanna-be Goth). Instead, Satan's greatest power is deception. His most amazing trick is convincing everyone that he does not exist. And neither does God. It's the oldest freakin' trick in the book. Even Batman took some lessons from that battleplan. An even craftier trick of Satan's is to convince others that, Ok, yeah, God's real, but He's a mean old turd who gets his kicks by tormenting us.
Evil originates from Satan, but is made manifest in man himself. BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE BECAUSE PEOPLE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN.
It has nothing to do with God.
I really don't mean any offense by this, but the idea of Satan just seems like a cop-out. Like the ending of a movie where the conflict is resolved or explained in a horrendously convoluted and overly-complicated way.
"John didn't kill all those people, it was Nhoj, his evil twin! See, he's got a mustache!"
If the idea of God is difficult to buy, then the idea of God and Satan in some sort of war of good and evil is infinitely moreso.
Quote:
P.S. Even if you don't read the Bible, or don't believe in it, READ THE BOOK OF JOB. It's in the Old Testament. It explains EXACTLY and PERFECTLY why God allows bad things to happen to good people.
I read the book of Job many years ago, but I don't remember anything specifically beyond the general plot. Perhaps you could paraphrase what you thought was so profound about it?
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Animalman said:
I read the book of Job many years ago, but I don't remember anything specifically beyond the general plot. Perhaps you could paraphrase what you thought was so profound about it?
I think he's getting at the fact that the Devil expicitly challenges God in the book as to the nature of his rule (in that he blesses those who obey him, such as the affluent Job). God replies by letting Satan torment Job with a series of horrendous tortures, and Job still remains faithful. There is much discussion in the book as to the merits of both God's and the devil's sides of the issue. I don't think this pertains to the larger picture though. I don't see that God is testing us so much as allowing humanity (and the universe at large) to see the results of ignoring His will. I don't think that He'd be so cruel as to permit this much suffering merely to test us. There are bigger things on the table than our individual faith here. Universal order depends on wittnessing these events.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
OK. But that still does not refute the general theory that religions have been developed by humanity as way of soothing fear.
No it doesn't refute that at all. I would even agknoledge that that's true, but that doesn't negate the Christian's persuit of truth. That was my point from the beginning. You said that Christians sought protection from above as opposed to seeking truth, My point was that they did both.
For example, If i said that (and this isn't my true belief) that Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex rather than loving thier biological children, you would say they can do both. So it would be redundant for me to say "but that doesn't prove that they aren't attracted to the same sex", because you weren't trying to disprove that.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
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Wednesday said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is.
I'd challenge that.
OK,.... let me know when you get around to it, because I'm not going to try and guess what your challenge would be and try to answer that.
Do or do not
-Yoda
Star Wars wisdom.
I'd is short for "I would" (in this case), not "I will".
You would, but you didn't.
"I would challange that."
meaning he doesn't believe God is the heavenly father just because he is. Even from a non religous standpoint that's circular logic. X because X. It's senseless. There's really no need for him to refute your claim/belief/statement because it doesn't need to be adressed. It's a simple statement offering nothing but words.
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Hurm.....Someone's getting uncharacteristically defensive. Very interesting. 
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Quote:
Uschi said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is.
I'd challenge that.
OK,.... let me know when you get around to it, because I'm not going to try and guess what your challenge would be and try to answer that.
Do or do not
-Yoda
Star Wars wisdom.
I'd is short for "I would" (in this case), not "I will".
You would, but you didn't.
"I would challange that."
meaning he doesn't believe God is the heavenly father just because he is. Even from a non religous standpoint that's circular logic. X because X. It's senseless. There's really no need for him to refute your claim/belief/statement because it doesn't need to be adressed. It's a simple statement offering nothing but words.
I wasn't saying that I believed JUST because he was. I was saying that I believed based on what i preceve to be truth rather than simply forming a belief based on what I want to be true. The problem with boards is people tend to look at a single post. You and Wednesday are saying I'm making a ciclical argument in trying to prove God's existance, but in the context I said what I said, i wasn't offereing my statement as any kind of proof. I oppologise if my answer wasn't sufficiant for a question that wasn't asked.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe that God is my Heavenly father, not because I want Him to be, but because he is.
I'd challenge that.
OK,.... let me know when you get around to it, because I'm not going to try and guess what your challenge would be and try to answer that.
Do or do not
-Yoda
I wasn't saying that I believed JUST because he was. I was saying that I believed based on what i preceve to be truth rather than simply forming a belief based on what I want to be true.
I was saying that I believed based on my beliefs rather than what I want to be true.
Rephrased exchanging "what I preceve to be truth" with "my beliefs." I think it's a fair enough trade.
Quote:
The problem with boards is people tend to look at a single post.
Quite accurate in principle. I looked at that line of posts because it stood out as interesting to me. I have no desire to understand your belief system. I'm content to let you believe what you believe. That is not the issue. I defended Wednesday's correctness saying "I'd challenge that," because he easilly could.
Quote:
You and Wednesday are saying I'm making a ciclical argument in trying to prove God's existance, but in the context I said what I said, i wasn't offereing my statement as any kind of proof.
That doesn't matter. What matters is that you wrote, "OK,.... let me know when you get around to it, because I'm not going to try and guess what your challenge would be and try to answer that." He did not offer an argument, he stated that he could offer an argument. In my recent paraphrase "I was saying that I believed based on my beliefs...," I have shown how this is easy to do, regardless on your agreeing with the refutation. Wednesday (IIRC) does not believe in god's existance (if I'm wrong, he still COULD not believe in god's eistance). If in his beliefs there is no god he can simply disprove your argument's premise (in his view) that god exists. God's existance is not at all a proven fact and thus can not be used as a good premise to your argument. Your argument is valid but not good.
Quote:
I oppologise if my answer wasn't sufficiant for a question that wasn't asked.
No 'answer' is needed. The question wasn't asked nor will it be raised or desired at all (by me).
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
As an athiest I will say that I know for certain I will never pray to god.
Even when dying or having a near death experience will not change this.
Some of you might question how I know this,but all I will say is I have very strong reasons for being an atheist & I do not fear death,its inevitable so why fear it?
On your deathbed, can I re-read these words back to you?
And anyone can say, "I don't fear death" when they're alive and in the prime of their health.
Say you're being robbed and the robber puts a gun to your head. He says you have exactly one minute to live, then he's going to pull the trigger.
You mean to tell me you would not fear death then, because it's inevitable?
And it doesn't even have to be something as dramatic as that. Say the doctor's prognosis is bad and gives you one week to live. On that last day, when you feel consciousness begin to fade... You'll be totally ok with that? Really? No fear at ALL?
Damn...
Non
I got soul but I'm not a soldier.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
So, what do you think all us Christians are affraid of?
That there is nothing after death. No reward for suffering on earth. No punishment for the evil. No redemption for the not-evil. That our consciousnesses just vanish. No reunion with loved ones.
It's not that I'm afraid to die and become nothing. I'm not worried about that. I prefer to live life like there is a God. That way, if, when I die, I find out He doesn't exist, what have I lost? Nothing. But if I live life like there isn't a God, and I die and I found out there IS, in fact, a God... well... I'm kinda screwed, then, aren't I?
It just seems more logical that way.
And it's not a choice born out of fear of hell or the unknown. I wasn't born into a Christian family, nor was I raised in a home with a Bible. I discovered Christ on my own. No one came to me and waved a Bible around and scared me into getting saved. I reached a point in my life where I was spiritually inquisitive. I studied Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam, even TM. But I decided Christianity was the route for me.
Also, I consider "suffering on earth" for Christ a reward in itself. I'm not expecting to receive any gifts in heaven. And I definitely don't think I'm wasting my life being a Christian (not that you ever said that).
Non
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Even the Old Testament portrays God as a vindictive, vengeful force, puninishing his "chosen people" when they did wrong.
If you're familiar with the Bible you'll understand that God rectified his former "fire and brimstone" portrayel with the life and death of Christ. God does an abrupt about-face between the Old and New Testaments. There are several reasons for this. If you're interested, I'll explain further.
Quote:
Billy said:
An easy answer would be to blame it all on Satan. But Satan's not effective if he's seen as some red-skinned, horned monster roiling in a pit of burning flames and sulfur. No, no, no. No one would ever voluntarily serve a Master like that (unless you're a severely disillusioned wanna-be Goth). Instead, Satan's greatest power is deception. His most amazing trick is convincing everyone that he does not exist. And neither does God. It's the oldest freakin' trick in the book. Even Batman took some lessons from that battleplan. An even craftier trick of Satan's is to convince others that, Ok, yeah, God's real, but He's a mean old turd who gets his kicks by tormenting us.
Evil originates from Satan, but is made manifest in man himself. BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE BECAUSE PEOPLE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN.
It has nothing to do with God.
Quote:
Animalman said:
I really don't mean any offense by this, but the idea of Satan just seems like a cop-out. Like the ending of a movie where the conflict is resolved or explained in a horrendously convoluted and overly-complicated way.
"John didn't kill all those people, it was Nhoj, his evil twin! See, he's got a mustache!"
How come it's easy for people to accept the Buddhist idea of Yin-Yang (a perfect balance between good and evil), but find it utterly imcomprehensible to accept the idea of God and Satan? Every major religion has its devils and demons. But just because it's unfashionable to be a Christian these days, referring to "Satan" is seen as a "cop-out".
And besides, what you just said is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. IF Satan was real, don't you think it would be in his best interest to convince you he didn't exist?
Quote:
Animalman said:
If the idea of God is difficult to buy, then the idea of God and Satan in some sort of war of good and evil is infinitely moreso.
As stated earlier, there is no "war". It was fought and won before Time began. The battles going on now are mere skirmishes, Satan's way of buying more time.
With all of us being sci-fi and comic book fans, is this stuff REALLY that hard to believe? Or even imagine?
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Billy said:
P.S. Even if you don't read the Bible, or don't believe in it, READ THE BOOK OF JOB. It's in the Old Testament. It explains EXACTLY and PERFECTLY why God allows bad things to happen to good people.
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Animalman said:
I read the book of Job many years ago, but I don't remember anything specifically beyond the general plot. Perhaps you could paraphrase what you thought was so profound about it?
Someone else already explained this for me, but if you'd like me to elaborate, I will.
Non
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Wow this thread is fun!
Non
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Nonoxynol9 said:
If you're familiar with the Bible you'll understand that God rectified his former "fire and brimstone" portrayel with the life and death of Christ. God does an abrupt about-face between the Old and New Testaments. There are several reasons for this. If you're interested, I'll explain further.
God, the all-powerful, all-knowing, omni-present being who has existed since before time began, did an "abrupt about-face"?
That seems quite un-Godly. Why would a God want to change? Why would a God need to change?
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How come it's easy for people to accept the Buddhist idea of Yin-Yang (a perfect balance between good and evil), but find it utterly imcomprehensible to accept the idea of God and Satan?
I find the basic idea behind the Yin-Yang(that nature and society generally have a balance to them) to be logical, because it's rooted in human and animal pyschology, as well as mathematics and physics. The odds of one particular idea or concept(those probably aren't the right words to use, but it's the best I can come up with) remaining dominant forever are slim. Everything has a backlash. It's like a pendulum. In any event, I don't really associate words like "good" and "evil" with it.
Also, tehcnically the Yin-Yang isn't two things, it's one thing, with two distinct parts. So, if you were to suggest that God and Satan are, infact, the same thing, I'd be more likely to consider it.
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Every major religion has its devils and demons. But just because it's unfashionable to be a Christian these days, referring to "Satan" is seen as a "cop-out".
I don't recall mentioning Christianity. We were discussing the idea of Satan, something that exists in numerous forms in numerous other religions.
Frankly, and I sense myself drifting off-topic here, I laugh when people say it's "unfashionable to be a Christian", or that modern society has something against Christians. I wonder if the people who say stuff like that have ever stepped foot in the southern half of the United States. Honestly, try telling a non-Christian southerner that it's "unfashionable to be Christian". See what kind of response you get.
Brief rant. Everyone thinks they're being oppressed. Everyone. Because of their race, because of their creed, because of their sexual preference, whatever. Everybody thinks the world is somehow against them, that the masses are conspiring to take away their right to be who they are.
If you're insecure about being Christian, I'm very sorry to hear it, but please don't tell me that being Christian is "unfashionable", because even in the most diverse country in the world, we still have over 150 million(a good 80%) other people who are, too.
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And besides, what you just said is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. IF Satan was real, don't you think it would be in his best interest to convince you he didn't exist?
Then, conversely, wouldn't it be in God's best interests to convince us he did?
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With all of us being sci-fi and comic book fans, is this stuff REALLY that hard to believe?
Well, you see, I'm one of those odd fellows who doesn't think Superman or Batman exists, either.
(insert smiley here)
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Someone else already explained this for me, but if you'd like me to elaborate, I will.
I didn't notice who did, what page was the explanation on?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Nonoxynol9 said:
I prefer to live life like there is a God. That way, if, when I die, I find out He doesn't exist, what have I lost? Nothing. But if I live life like there isn't a God, and I die and I found out there IS, in fact, a God... well... I'm kinda screwed, then, aren't I?
No, because that would be like saying that the only way to be a good person is to believe in God.
You're not saying that, are you?
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Third page.
And wow... I may not agree with much of what's being said here... but this thread is one damnded good example of people using logic and exercising their debating skills. This is the kinda thread I live for.
No hard feelings all round, just straight up philosophical fun! I love it!
Non
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Quote:
Animalman said:
God, the all-powerful, all-knowing, omni-present being who has existed since before time began, did an "abrupt about-face"?
That seems quite un-Godly. Why would a God want to change? Why would a God need to change?
I think I used the wrong words here.
God didn't update Himself to keep up with us. He merely changed his course of action. This does not imply confusion or uncertainty on God's part. It was all a part of His plan.
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But even the word change implies error, or a desire to be different.
Why change if you're perfect?
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Animalman said:
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Nonoxynol9 said:
I prefer to live life like there is a God. That way, if, when I die, I find out He doesn't exist, what have I lost? Nothing. But if I live life like there isn't a God, and I die and I found out there IS, in fact, a God... well... I'm kinda screwed, then, aren't I?
No, because that would be like saying that the only way to be a good person is to believe in God.
You're not saying that, are you?
Oh no, not at all. But, being a Christian fundamentally includes certain moral behavior. Such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, generosity, and self-control. Anyone who says they're a Christian but doesn't produce these fruits of the spirit obviously don't know what they're talking about.
And all of these traits are esteemed by every other religion.
So no, that's not what I was saying.
Non
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Quote:
Animalman said:
But even the word change implies error, or a desire to be different.
Why change if you're perfect?
Hmmmm... Animalman, I want to answer your post as intelligently as possible. Will you give me a day to come up with a proper reply?
Non
P.S. I only ask this b/c it's almost 3 a.m. here and it's time for bed.
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Sure, no problem. Just don't be like Pariah and promise a response later in the week, then not respond for months when I've not only lost all interest but become bitter about discussing it. 
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wannabuyamonkey said:
No it doesn't refute that at all. I would even agknoledge that that's true, but that doesn't negate the Christian's persuit of truth.
I would further state, or posit anyway, that Christians have alraedy made up their minds on the Truth. So, there's no pursuit anymore. They're satisfied they have the answer. It then becomes a cessation of the pursuit of Knowledge and becomes a Need To Maintain Good Behavior here on earth.
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Non said Quote:
It's not that I'm afraid to die and become nothing. I'm not worried about that. I prefer to live life like there is a God. That way, if, when I die, I find out He doesn't exist, what have I lost? Nothing. But if I live life like there isn't a God, and I die and I found out there IS, in fact, a God... well... I'm kinda screwed, then, aren't I?
Perhaps only if God is the Christian God.
It could be a God that never demanded belief/acceptance/recrmination in the first place.
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