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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
No it doesn't refute that at all. I would even agknoledge that that's true, but that doesn't negate the Christian's persuit of truth.
I would further state, or posit anyway, that Christians have alraedy made up their minds on the Truth. So, there's no pursuit anymore. They're satisfied they have the answer. It then becomes a cessation of the pursuit of Knowledge and becomes a Need To Maintain Good Behavior here on earth.
Well, Buddha discovered the Four Noble Truths and the 8-Fold Path. He became "enlightened" then, but he didn't disappear, merge back into the cosmos, ascend into heaven, or become living energy (heh). Although he attained nirvana, moksha, atman, whatever, he decided to stay on earth, pursue these Four Noble Truths, and continue on the 8-Fold Path, to share it with others.
How is this different from a Christian's desire to share, understand, and pass along Truth, as well?
Just because a person believes they discovered Truth doesn't preclude any further moral or spiritual development. You continue to learn new things as you grow older. The Truth never changes, just your aspect and understanding of it.
I firmly believe that I discovered Truth at an early age, but that doesn't mean I can't learn more about it, grow in it, and pass it along to others.
The day I stop using my brain to learn new things will be the day they pull the plug on me.
Non
I got soul but I'm not a soldier.
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Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Just because a person believes they discovered Truth doesn't preclude any further moral or spiritual development.
Are you able to, in good conscience, question your faith?
Quote:
You continue to learn new things as you grow older.
Sadly, I find all too many who just get more and more set in their ways rather than open up to new possibilities.
Quote:
I firmly believe that I discovered Truth at an early age, but that doesn't mean I can't learn more about it, grow in it, and pass it along to others.
Just be sure you're sharing it with someone who's receptive.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-12-31 3:16 PM.
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Note to Uschi: (Sorry didn't want to quote all that) The sole reason for my comment to Wednesday was to try and encourage a diolouge. Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
No it doesn't refute that at all. I would even agknoledge that that's true, but that doesn't negate the Christian's persuit of truth.
I would further state, or posit anyway, that Christians have alraedy made up their minds on the Truth. So, there's no pursuit anymore. They're satisfied they have the answer. It then becomes a cessation of the pursuit of Knowledge and becomes a Need To Maintain Good Behavior here on earth.
You could further state that, but it wouldn't be true. To quote Thomas Aquinas "The Christain should seek to learn everything he can, because all truth leads to God." and then to quote the scriptures "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind." I may have come to the belief that God exists, but that doesn't mean that I decided to stop learning. For one I talk with people I know or come to places like this in order to have that belief challenged, because I don't want to believe anything that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. You don't know as much about Christians, what the believe and what they think as you think, but you do seem satisfied that you do. You seem more interested in telling me how I think and feel rather than asking me.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
You could further state that, but it wouldn't be true. To quote Thomas Aquinas "The Christain should seek to learn everything he can, because all truth leads to God." and then to quote the scriptures "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
He says should. I'm wondering if most Christians ignore his advice...well, I can say this, with certainty...most of the ones I have known have ignored that advice.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-12-31 4:56 PM.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Sure, no problem.
Just don't be like Pariah and promise a response later in the week, then not respond for months when I've not only lost all interest but become bitter about discussing it.
*shrug*
Maybe his "laziest guy on the planet"ness (.....Yeah) can be arsed to pay attention to a subject for paragraphs upon paragraphs at a time, but tedium (nor stuborness) is not as much my forte as it is yours.
I could ressurect all those past threads if you really want me to though.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
You could further state that, but it wouldn't be true. To quote Thomas Aquinas "The Christain should seek to learn everything he can, because all truth leads to God." and then to quote the scriptures "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
He says should. I'm wondering if most Christians ignore his advice...well, I can say this, with certainty...most of the ones I have known have ignored that advice.
Oh my goodness I never considered before that some Christians are flawed! This changes everything. Seriously I KNOW you're too intellegent to try and inmply that comments like:
Quote:
Sadly, I find all too many who just get more and more set in their ways rather than open up to new possibilities.
applies to Christians exclusively. Christians are (get ready for the shock of your life) humans so all the atributes, (sinfull, lazy, corrupt, etc...) that apply to humans can apply to them as well, but it in no way proves to be a product of Christianity or invalidates any of the truth claims. I'm really not sure what you're trying to demonstrate. If you want to prove that the Christians you know are ignorant and lazy congradulations, mission accomplished, I know some of them too. I also know some perverted depraved homo-sexuals. Should i develop a theory on all homo-sexuals based on this experience? Because my approach so far has been to judge them as individuals and get to know them as I meet them and relate to them on a personal basis not holding the actions of some against an entire group, but your method sounds easier, although perhaps not as productive.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Yeah, Jesus said he loves everyone. Even hookers and sleezy robbers. Hell, a tax collector was his buddy. You don't have to believe the Christ bit for that to be true.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I also know some perverted depraved homo-sexuals. Should i develop a theory on all homo-sexuals based on this experience? Because my approach so far has been to judge them as individuals and get to know them as I meet them and relate to them on a personal basis not holding the actions of some against an entire group, but your method sounds easier, although perhaps not as productive.
Touche'.
But...I do not judge all Christians on the bases of a few.
I have evaluated the religion as best I can from my experiences, my intelligence, the philosophies I've read, and such. I cannot separate Christianity from any other religion and say "it's the Truth." I also cannot believe that I have been created by God and then told I have to plead to get back in His grace.
You guys like to use the Parent-Child metaphor for God...ok, let's use that. How does it make sense for a parent to cast out the child for simply being the way he is?
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Quote:
Uschi said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Yeah, Jesus said he loves everyone. Even hookers and sleezy robbers. Hell, a tax collector was his buddy. You don't have to believe the Christ bit for that to be true.
Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated........ There's one.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
I can only go by what he's said.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
I can only go by what he's said.
In a book over 2000 years old.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
I have evaluated the religion as best I can from my experiences, my intelligence, the philosophies I've read, and such. I cannot separate Christianity from any other religion and say "it's the Truth." I also cannot believe that I have been created by God and then told I have to plead to get back in His grace.
I'm not sure how best to word this and it is the morning after New Years, but to say I completely believe and accept what your saying. I've mentioned to Uschi in the past one area where I differ from many Christians is i don't believe it's my job to convert you. It's my job to A- Offer a reasonable defense of my faith B- Answer any legitimate questions as best I can and C- Preach the Gospel. I don't "share" I put it down and let you pick it up if you want. If you don't believe then you don't believe, i accept that fully, because I KNOW I can't make you and it's not my job. Ironically though I've heard anger from some of the same people who hate being "converted" at my appearant indifference.
Quote:
You guys like to use the Parent-Child metaphor for God...ok, let's use that. How does it make sense for a parent to cast out the child for simply being the way he is?
Another area where I may differ from some is I've never believed in either the universal son-ship of man or the unversal brother-hood to Christ. I believe God's people are his son's and daughters and the brothers of Christ.... So that we can save a step I'll answer the most common response to this by saying that being created makes you a creature, not a son.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
You're silly.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
You're silly.
But, I'm right.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Uschi said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Yeah, Jesus said he loves everyone. Even hookers and sleezy robbers. Hell, a tax collector was his buddy. You don't have to believe the Christ bit for that to be true.
Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated........ There's one.
Wasn't that Abraham or something?
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
I can only go by what he's said.
In a book over 2000 years old.
Unwritten until at least thirty years post Jesus mortem.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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as I've stated before, I'm an atheist! not because I'm afraid that I don't live up to certain standards (although I probably don't ) but because I've come to the conclusion that there is no God, a higher power does not exist, for me! To others Go does exist, but not to me!
 Racks be to MisterJLA
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Quote:
Uschi said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Uschi said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Yeah, Jesus said he loves everyone. Even hookers and sleezy robbers. Hell, a tax collector was his buddy. You don't have to believe the Christ bit for that to be true.
Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated........ There's one.
Wasn't that Abraham or something?
Nope that was the Big Guy himself.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
I can only go by what he's said.
In a book over 2000 years old.
Yes the book is that old, but sheesh, how many different arguments do you want to have at once? I started an entire thread on the validity of scriptures some time ago and you didn't choose to open that diolouge then so don't try to derail this topic. You may place an experation date on truth, but I think theres something to be said about a book that has whithstood the test of two millenia. If you want to debate that dig up the old thread.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Uschi said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
I can only go by what he's said.
In a book over 2000 years old.
Unwritten until at least thirty years post Jesus mortem.
30 years later is hardly a long time to compile records by eye-whitnesses from a culture natorious for it's obsessive note taking. I mean c'mon you say 30 years like it's centuries. i mean that would be like saying we can't accurately know what happened in 1975 because it was so long ago.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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We couldn't be assured they didn't paraphrase or integrate their own agenda.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
I can only go by what he's said.
In a book over 2000 years old.
Yes the book is that old, but sheesh, how many different arguments do you want to have at once? I started an entire thread on the validity of scriptures some time ago and you didn't choose to open that diolouge then so don't try to derail this topic. You may place an experation date on truth, but I think theres something to be said about a book that has whithstood the test of two millenia. If you want to debate that dig up the old thread.
I simply replied to what you said in this thread. I don't have threads memorized or indexed so that I can be sure I'm responding in the correct spot.
Sheesh. It's not thread derailing. It was a remark. If you thought it was bullshit or placed inappropriately, don't respond to it.
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Quote:
Uschi said:
We couldn't be assured they didn't paraphrase or integrate their own agenda.
Wich has absolutely nothing to do with a 30 year difference. If they were going to do that, then they could have done it one year. Your throwing out buck-shot arguments. Lets start at the beginning. Do you know the general message of the Bible (not do you believe it, but do you know it?)
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Jesus loves atheists.
No he doesn't
Is it wise to presume you know what Jesus thinks?
I can only go by what he's said.
In a book over 2000 years old.
Yes the book is that old, but sheesh, how many different arguments do you want to have at once? I started an entire thread on the validity of scriptures some time ago and you didn't choose to open that diolouge then so don't try to derail this topic. You may place an experation date on truth, but I think theres something to be said about a book that has whithstood the test of two millenia. If you want to debate that dig up the old thread.
I simply replied to what you said in this thread. I don't have threads memorized or indexed so that I can be sure I'm responding in the correct spot.
Sheesh. It's not thread derailing. It was a remark. If you thought it was bullshit or placed inappropriately, don't respond to it.
No I just thought it was jumping topics, nothing more. I mean if I respond and defend the validity of scripture then you'll jump to something else. I'm just trying to stay focused (somewhat). If you want to discuss the validity of scripture, we can do that, but in it's time. I mean people on both sides write volumes on each topip so I'm not going to try to deal with all of them at once. That's all, no need for anger.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Uschi said:
We couldn't be assured they didn't paraphrase or integrate their own agenda.
Wich has absolutely nothing to do with a 30 year difference. If they were going to do that, then they could have done it one year. Your throwing out buck-shot arguments. Lets start at the beginning. Do you know the general message of the Bible (not do you believe it, but do you know it?)
Yeah. Yaweh(sp) is the Father, Jesus the Son, and with the Holy Spirit they are the one true God. Jesus died to be the final sacrifice so all people could be forgiven of their sins if they accept him as their savior. People can now get into Heaven when they die rather than waiting until Judgement Day like all those before Jesus the Christ.
However, if people are going to base things off quotes from the bible and not generalities I tend to hold little stock in what they say (as coming from their divine being) since memory fails after thirty-plus years of evangelizing, martyring, organizing the church, and dealing with politics.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Uschi said:
since memory fails after thirty-plus years of evangelizing, martyring, organizing the church, and dealing with politics.
I dunno, I've seen some o' those FO-TO graphic mem o' ree types remeber an equivilant of misc. info in bulk after reading through complications comparably mirroring those circumstances (mostly numbers). Of course I'm not concluding that they had photographic memories, but more along the lines of you knowing shit about what a person could or could not remember after any amount of time.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated........
I guess that flies in the face of the "Jesus loves everyone" argument so many Christians make. Not the first time they've contradicted themselves.
However, to the implication that Jesus doesn't love atheists, if Jesus hates someone simply because they don't believe in God, then he's a jackass who isn't worth being worshipped.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Uschi said:
since memory fails after thirty-plus years of evangelizing, martyring, organizing the church, and dealing with politics.
I dunno, I've seen some o' those FO-TO graphic mem o' ree types remeber an equivilant of misc. info in bulk after reading through complications comparably mirroring those circumstances (mostly numbers). Of course I'm not concluding that they had photographic memories, but more along the lines of you knowing shit about what a person could or could not remember after any amount of time.
Well, you know, who cares?
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Uschi said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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Uschi said:
We couldn't be assured they didn't paraphrase or integrate their own agenda.
Wich has absolutely nothing to do with a 30 year difference. If they were going to do that, then they could have done it one year. Your throwing out buck-shot arguments. Lets start at the beginning. Do you know the general message of the Bible (not do you believe it, but do you know it?)
Yeah. Yaweh(sp) is the Father, Jesus the Son, and with the Holy Spirit they are the one true God. Jesus died to be the final sacrifice so all people could be forgiven of their sins if they accept him as their savior. People can now get into Heaven when they die rather than waiting until Judgement Day like all those before Jesus the Christ.
However, if people are going to base things off quotes from the bible and not generalities I tend to hold little stock in what they say (as coming from their divine being) since memory fails after thirty-plus years of evangelizing, martyring, organizing the church, and dealing with politics.
I honestly am confused by what you mean, if someone quotes the Bible you will have litte stock in what they say. You would rather they make generalities. It's late so maybe I'm not getting it. Also if you hold little stock in what I say then what's the point of carying on this conversation? In case I am sleepy and i missunderstood I will still respond to your comment by saying that the Jews at the time were renound record keepers so it's not like 30 years after the fact they sat down and tried to write the story down off the top of thier heads. You're assuming way too much for this to be a legitimate argument. I dought you woke up one day, realised that the Gospels were written 30 years after the death of Jesus and decided there was no God. Again I think this is just a buck-shot argument. I would like to hear your sincere reasoning though unless you truly hold zero stock in anything I say in wich case i would say drop it and don't waste either of our time.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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I guess that flies in the face of the "Jesus loves everyone" argument so many Christians make. Not the first time
Yes it does. I wish they would stop making it.
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Not the first time they've contradicted themselves.
see my earlier post on Christians being human. It won't be the last time either.
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However, to the implication that Jesus doesn't love atheists, if Jesus hates someone simply because they don't believe in God, then he's a jackass who isn't worth being worshipped.
Believe what you will. i would find it interesting to see someone at the trone of Judgement call Jesus a jackass in hopes of getting into Heaven. Although you make a good point in one regard, because if there was no God or even if there was, but it wasn't Jesus then you're right the man would be a Jackass, he wouldn't be a prophet or even a good teacher he would be a minaiacle liar with delusions of grandure or at the very least a nutter. Jesus said that he was the Way the truth and the life and NO ONE would come to the Father BUT through him. If he was wrong then he shouldn't be eld in the high regard some non-christians hold him in, he should be held in contemt or pittied, but if He was right then if in spite of the fact that you are dependant on God for the life you live and every breath you take you reject him then you will not go to the Father. On that not IF God is infact the creator of life and granted you every thing you hold dear that there is no "simply" in rejecting him it would be the hight of arrogance. So in the end we'll see who's the Jackass.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Believe what you will. i would find it interesting to see someone at the trone of Judgement call Jesus a jackass in hopes of getting into Heaven.
If Jesus hates those who don't believe in God then I probably don't have much of a shot at heaven anyway.
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Although you make a good point in one regard, because if there was no God or even if there was, but it wasn't Jesus then you're right the man would be a Jackass, he wouldn't be a prophet or even a good teacher he would be a minaiacle liar with delusions of grandure or at the very least a nutter. Jesus said that he was the Way the truth and the life and NO ONE would come to the Father BUT through him. If he was wrong then he shouldn't be eld in the high regard some non-christians hold him in, he should be held in contemt or pittied, but if He was right then if in spite of the fact that you are dependant on God for the life you live and every breath you take you reject him then you will not go to the Father. On that not IF God is infact the creator of life and granted you every thing you hold dear that there is no "simply" in rejecting him it would be the hight of arrogance. So in the end we'll see who's the Jackass.
Yes, I suppose. I can't say I'm worried about it, though. So it goes.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Uschi said:
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Pariah said:
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Uschi said:
since memory fails after thirty-plus years of evangelizing, martyring, organizing the church, and dealing with politics.
I dunno, I've seen some o' those FO-TO graphic mem o' ree types remeber an equivilant of misc. info in bulk after reading through complications comparably mirroring those circumstances (mostly numbers). Of course I'm not concluding that they had photographic memories, but more along the lines of you knowing shit about what a person could or could not remember after any amount of time.
Well, you know, who cares?
*shrug*
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kung-fu treachery 5000+ posts
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Quote:
Nonoxynol9 said:
Wow this thread is fun!
Non
It sure is Billy, it sure is. 
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I heard that Nonoxynol9 died and that on his death bed he became an atheist.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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I heard that you are an atheist. A liberal one at that.
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