RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Writer's Block Vanguard 19 talk thread.

I am open to any and all suggestions. For the first time ever, really.....I simply have no idea what to do about these stories. But, I think I'm going to just write a bit here and say things as they come to mind. Now, I am in no way attemtpting to address any character/writer specifically. I'm just talking as it hits me. Being instantly honest.

I haven't been able to get into the stories as of late for some simple reasons.

1.) No status quo. Characters are coming and going so fast, I can't get a feel of any type of group dynamic. With TOMB, and, the initial Silver-Age of Vanguard (Grimm, Dirk, Raptor, etc.) there was a decent status quo. You knew who the leader was. You knew who the thinker was. You knew who had the muscles, and who had the charm. And, they were all DIFFERENT characters. No one character summed those traits up completely. Then, it seemed, as time progressed, many characters began gaining more and more traits and expertise. No longer could you say Character A was the strongman. There were multiple strongmen. No longer was Character B the mystic. Others too had mystical qualities. There was no standard. No firm root.

And, thus, without a stable line of characters, the dynamic doesn't exist, and it's Marvel's "Knights" or "Defenders" all over; individual stars that are appearing in the same book. This doesn't work for me. I need stability for longer than two stories. I need to be able to find the heart of a team, and the dynamic in which those characters exist. Otherwise, they become interchangeable.

2.) I have no ideas. I am simply rummaging the bottom of my cerebrum for ideas tha haven't yet been explored in this format. However, what other format would be interesting, I don't know. Through TOMB, to the MBL, to Vanguard, we've seen and done everything I can come up with as being...."fun". This is not to say that others can't concoct new ideas. I hope they do. But, I fear that not everyone will notice the "new", and simply begin writing it as the same old thing.

3.) Too many cooks in the kitchen. In TOMB, Chewy was the leader. Pure and simple. Danny was the co-leader. Brains and brawn. A perfect match. And no one ever questioned that. There was no real reason for Chewy to be the man, except that it worked. And, thus, I followed that narrative trait through every story, and, in the writing group as a whole. Chewy had the final say because we accepted that. Funny enough, it was the most solid this group has ever been. It worked. Danny (the characer) held this for Vanguard for quite the time. We needed a leader, and he fell into that role. It was a given in the story. However, outside that, as a writing group, there was no direction, OR, there were five directions, all going different paths. Take your pick, depending on how you see it.

We need a leader. In the stories, and, in the group.

4.) Prometheus, Foreman, Turkish, Ozzy, Tiberius. Of all these, Pro and Foreman are the easiest for me to write, simply because, they are the two sides of my natural personality. Turkish is so much fun, but, simply, an experiment in the weirder strains of my imagination. I love using him. But, he rarely works in a group of other writers, as no one seems to get on the same track of thinking with him as I intend. My fault, as I don't think I've ever been able to clearly explain him. Ozzy is a good one, BUT, only because others have written more into him than I ever have. And, that was partially intentional, as I designed him to be my character with the least baggage. Something a-typical, allowing anyone to write him. Easy concept: invulnerable boxer. Easy personality: everyman. He can make jokes, be the butt of a joke, and kick your ass because of the jokes. He works......but he's not me. He's not really any part of my personality. I'm not nearly as easy going, or, as amicable. Thus, it's never actually easy for me to find as much joy or imagination in the character.....other than finding new ways for him not to be hurt. That's fun. Tiberius is an experiment on a lesser-powered Turkish-type that I simply haven't had the time to expand on. I'll probably get rid of him at some point, as I can't forsee getting too deep into him nowadays, and it was a mistake for me to create him.

And this has all been said because it's fairly obvious that I'm a one-trick pony. I am desperately searching for a character that I love to write, that is me, that is something I crave to explore, that isn't Prometheus or Foreman. Simple and as honest as that, really.

5.) Accessibility. It's much harder to write other people's characters if I am not given the freedom to do so. If someone is so carefully controlling of every nuance of their character, but, yet, keeps it a secret, or, doesn't show it in a story, then how on earth can I simply write the character as presented? I can, but, after awhile, I find it stagnant. Not pointing fingers. Just saying.

6.) Too many stories. Too many teams. Too many concepts and sub-characters and side-tracks in this universe. No room to play, and everyone has claimed a spot on the beach as their own. No neccessarily bad. Just limiting for me.

--As usual, my only real conclusion is to just have a massive event that wipes the slate as clean as possible, kill/remove/end almost all the characters, and start anew. I've always liked Crisis, for this reason. Of course, many people don't see why what we have can't be straightened out or cleaned up only slightly enough to make it sensible again. I don't have a problem with this either. But, unless given total freedom and access, it certainly won't be me doing the cleaning.

And, that ends my instant dialogue on the subject. I'm not sure if I even made a point. But, there you go...

I'm more and more of the mind to just wipe it all away and start over.

Keep the Vanguard name. Just Vanguard. No VI, VE, VA, VV, VZ, ad nauseum. The group is Vanguard. That's it.

Preferably, I prefer that people write their character based off of their screen persona. Chewy Walrus writes Chewy Walrus, just as an example. If you don't want to write an existing character, make a new one and an ID for it.

One character for the group. No overabundance of supporting characters bogging down the stories.

Stop beating around the bush with all this nonsense about are they "adventurers" or whatever. Every single one of these stories are superhero stories. All of them. Read them. They are. It doesn't matter what you coat them in, they're just excuses for people to get together and play at being superheroes. Nowhere is this more abundantly clear than when a fight scene starts in a story and immediately everyone begins posting. So stop trying to gloss it up and just accept it for what it is.

Do NEW things and ideas and stop worrying about the old stuff. Seriously, why is Mandelovia and Promethon and blah blah all back in the "new" universe? There's no need for it. Come up with new stuff. We don't need to see "new" versions of characters who aren't around anymore.

That's it for now. I'd make a longer response to Euro, but I really don't feel like dealing with him right now.

You guys have offered some pretty drastic solutions. It suggests you're all pretty damn frustrated about the whole thing.

I know for a fact things would be different if Chewy and I (and prolly other college-student posters) hadn't been so damn busy all year. I think things will improve over the summer. I'd hate to wipe out a lot of cool stuff (and you have to admit there's quite a bit of cool stuff in our continuity) just because we're in a rut right now. But that's just me.

Well, I'm not frustrated, really, to be honest. I'm just out of ideas...

I just kinda forget most of what happens in the periphery. Mandelovia, the Hoods and Capes, whatever. It doesn't immediately affect the main story, I don't give a damn.

Man, if you knew me, you'd know I've been dying to come through this universe with a scythe-and-a-smile for about a year or two now...

Hey, new blood is always a welcome addition to this group, Kaz....

Rather than have an 'event' that cleans shit up, I'd rather just agree to hang on to what we're currently using and just forget the rest...

Quiet, you're gonna get me banned!

I ain't readin' all that yo.

Okay, for right now let's assume the universe is not being wiped out. It's still very cluttered and convoluted. New people (and some of us old people) need a guide to what's going on. So what I propose is this. We create a Vanguard Handbook thread with listing for all the important people, places, and things in the universe.

So, if you're interested, I'll start putting this up next week sometime. PM me your entries for the handbook with Vanguard Handbook in the subject line.

But keep in mind, the entries need to be brief enough that someone can read over them without feeling bogged down. I'm not putting up paragraphs of exposition on Eurostar's family history or Phil Smith's technology. If you want an entry, keep it short. A paragraph at the most. Otherwise, you get what I have to say about the character/place. So if you don't send me anything, don't complain about it.

I got my family coming in tomorrow. You'll get my entry soon though.

Moo-hoo-ha-ha.

I am happy hearing all of the above, it was a long time we had such an open talk.

I would not have problems with both of the solution proposed: crisis or streamlining are for me equally good.

If we restart, I bring back Euro, without baggages, sons, daughters and wives.

If we go with the streamlining, having written off Euro, all of his family and related villains at the end of VI issue 18, I think of having done my best to simplify the universe on my part, cosidering I had wiped out a lot more with the Antarctic War. I will use Hero (I will change my posting nick accordingly, Grimm's suggestion is utterly valid), a character that simply put is a guy like Superman but without any clues at how to use his powers.

About limiting the number of characters, it's something I am not really sure about, as I have thougt about that solution for some time. It would be perfect to build better round robin stories, as the characters remain the same while the writers could come and go; yet, it I think they would get very predictable, and the fun coming from the role-play part would be lost.

For example, do you believe that a nice thing like the Griss-Bree romance, or the BF-squirrel friendship, would have been born between characters collectively created and owned? We would got in a similar problem with what we have now: now no one want to ruin the story, then we would be scared to ruin the characters.

I think a simple maximum number of mebers like we had in TOMB would suffice; if a person knows that for various reasons can't continue to post, it resigns, leaving the place for a new candidate. That doesn't mean that a person that has no time to post in the collective story MUST leave the Vanguard Universe, as there is always room for solo stories or special project between a small number of posters.

I took one hour to write this and no one will even read it.

Hey, I read it!

If you blow up the world, give me a call.








Miss you guys. Hope all is well.

All this is if there is a restart, and that's a big if.

If we are talking abolishing the two-team concept (VI and VE), then, I also suggest a change in location. I hate that fucking island. And, that is old news, I'm sure. I've said it a million times. It's isolating. Just my opinion. But, I don't see why one, single, unified team can't move to NYC, Berlin, San Francisco, whatever. Just an idea.

And, even if we don't do a Crisis, let's start it fresh.

Vanguard #1 : Brave New World

Roster:

-Chewy's character
-Phil's character
-Grimm's character
-SPAMM's character
-CJ's character
-Mxy's character
-Danny's character
-My character
-Euro's character
-Doc's character

A ten man team, made up of new or old characters (depending on the writer's choice), founded on a charter of metahuman intervention and adventure.

My personal reasoning for the change (and one I'd be happy to write):

--A group of metahumans go out of fucking control (The Syndicate? The Evil MBL? New group?) and start fucking everything up....humans, metahumans, everything. Vanguard and VE unite to stop them. This is a battle like they've never seen. Some/alot/a few/one of our characters are killed, leave, resign, whatever by the end, leaving the core group of ten left to start over somewhere else, with a new purpose: they become the guardians of this new age of metahumans. No longer will rogue metahumans be allowed to rum rampant and form terrorist groups, and the like. This Vanguard is here to bring order to the world, taking responsibility for their genetic brethren, and assuring the populace of the world that they will simply not tolerate another "battle" like this that cost them their friends. Nor, will they tolerate governments and humans trying to eradicate their kind.

Metahumans are no longer hunted, or hated. But, if they get out of line, Vanguard comes down on them instantly.

That is their purpose. That is their mission. To maintain order.

---This is all just off the top of my head, but, it's an amalgam of the Authority idea without the suits and government approval, and the like. If we're going to write superheroes, let's write them the way we would want them.

This is all just a suggestion. If you go for it, cool. I have exactly the idea to do it with. If not, cool. I look forward to hearing better ideas...

I automatically agree with Pro.

I do enjoy Pro's work. I just want to be sure that we can keep individual elements of our own characters' back stories for use in solo threads and occasional productive plot devices in the main story. If we can restart things without a change in continuity, I say go for it.

My idea eliminates all sub-characters in the main stories that are attached to any main character (i.e. Leslie, Paragon, Nuriko, Penny, etc.). The point would be to chop away anything except the core ten characters, and use no one else.

Using back story for solos? Sure. Using it as some kind of device in main plots? No. "Producutive" or not, the stories should be externally driven, not created by someone's continuity.

And, just so you know, this isn't like I'm doing the whole story myself. I have a concept plot, the bad guys, an angle, and an end. This isn't going to be a Heroes and Legends thing. Everyone would write it.

And, understand, before we even started it, I would have to get a final consensus on which character each writer picks to carry on in the new stuff, and what the desired status of their other characters should be by the end. In other words, I would have to know who is expendable (killed), and who just "goes away" at the end. If anyone wants to run this by me now, please PM me at your leisure...

I totally agree with Pro, without any "if" or any "but".

Guess it's the first time.

As long as we're not just wiping everything. I actually have a several year arc invested in Danny. Streamlining works for me, though.

No, it wouldn't be a total wipe-out. Just a streamline. Danny's a great character. I would love to think he would be the character you would choose to use for the main stories. Still, I've come to really love Victor, and this new team would have to have some serious muscle to be able to stop metahuman/other incursions. So, in the end, it would be up to you who you decide to use as your Vanguardian.

What I'm proposing is very simple, really. Pick one character you want, discard the rest. Once you've picked your character, you would PM on what you want to happen to any other one that you have created or is associated with the stories. This doesn't mean that I would be the one to remove/kill them. You would most certainly have that choice, as you see fit. But, in the end, I would want an accountability to what the status quo is. And, to be honest, I'm hoping to get the chance to kill of a few characters (only one in mind, right now) in order to truly hammer home the point that this is the end of Vanguard as we know it.

As far as the new team, I have a vision of clarity for our stuff. If it helps, I'm envisioning what Grant Morrison did with JLA: he removed all the peripheral stuff, and gave us the "Big 7" as the JLA. That set the tone for that team for over ten years now. Think of it like that. This is Vanguard's "Big 10" (or ever how many writers join in). It should be a stable line-up that presents itself as the ultimate evolution of Vanguard.

So, as far as the tally goes now:

Mxy: Yes
Chewy: Yes
Phil: ?
Euro: Yes
Grimm: ?
Doc: ?
CJ: ?
SPAMM: ?
Danny: Yes

We'll need to be decently unanimous on this before I even start concocting an outline. Let me know.

Are we all agreeable then?

Understand, this needs to be more than just the lip service that was given to the guideline proposal of last year. This has to be a moving forward of the group together. No disrespecting of people's characters/plots (I'm looking at you, Euro.) no stopping what everyone else is doing to feed our own ego (I'm looking at you, Sammitch). If this is going to work there have to be changes in the way the writers interact here. Otherwise, it's going to be more of the same and fall apart again.

And I don't want that.

I want the stories to be exciting and fun again, where you couldn't wait to come in and see what somebody had written. Where the group worked because you had characters with complementary traits, not a bunch of uber characters who could do anything. When people were excited to post all the time and not just when there was a fight scene to be had.

Also, as a thought, we'll need to vote on who will be the forum/group moderator/leader. We need structure, and order, and we need someone who can have the final say.

This isn't the same as having a "team leader" for the stories. If everyone wants, we can have a neutral "Charlie" from "Charlie's Angels" character that will serve as a head of Vanguard (and I have an idea about that as well). And, again, this doesn't have to be the same as a field leader. But, I'm also of the mind that we don't have to have a central character, just a field leader (ala' the character Chewy Walrus in the TOMB stories).

As far as the writing group goes, this democratic approach has not worked out for us. We tried it, and, here we are. We need someone who can make rational, final-say on disputed subjects and what is or is not allowed in the stories. Just a thought...

So, as far as the tally goes now:

Mxy: Yes
Chewy: Yes
Phil: ?
Euro: Yes
Grimm: Yes
Doc: ?
CJ: ?
SPAMM: ?
Danny: Yes

I'm in.

Awesome.

So, Spamm, Doc, and CJ then. And, I've just PMed CJ about all of this to see if I can get an answer from her. I'm sure Doc will be on later, or, I'll just talk to him when he comes over Wednesday night. Spamm? You out there?

Hey, don't forget about us oldtime inactives, we should be able to say yay or nay too. Anyhow, yay of course.

Well, of course Gooz. But, the question would be: Would you actually write in the stories? Or are you too busy with filming and stuff? I simply didn't include you since you aren't active. But, if you're going to be active, I would greatly enjoy hearing what character you planned to use, and/or, what your ideas are...

I vote Grimm as a field leader and as a master for the stories. His works over VE was flawless. I would also vote for Pro or Danny, but so far Grimm has been more consistent.

I would love to come back writing regular, but right now my schedule is with a big question mark. I'm moving across country, filming like crazy, gonna start a new gig soon, etc.

Either way, very interested in the direction you guys take this.

Well, field leader is hard to decide right now, as we don't know what characters will be used in the end. If I had to say right now, Grissom Montag. He's come to grow into that role very smoothly, and, in a nice ironic twist on TOMB to Vanguard, has seemingly inherited the team's confidence from Danny Hearn. But, again, if Chewy decides he's going to use Icarus for the new stuff, Griss is moot.

As far as writing group leader, I would say create a poll and let everyone vote....