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BBC News US 'war is fun' general rebukedBy Adam Brookes, BBC News Pentagon correspondent  The US Marine Corps has publicly upbraided one of its generals for his comments describing shooting people in Iraq as "fun".
Discussing fighting in Iraq, the General said he liked brawling and enjoyed shooting people.
The Marine Corps said Lt Gen James Mattis had been "counselled" concerning his remarks, made during a panel discussion in California.
The general had agreed he should have chosen his words more carefully.
Gen Mattis is a hardened veteran of combat and appears to have developed a taste for it.
During the discussion, he spoke of his experience fighting in Iraq as commander of the 1st Marine Division.
Public gaffe
Caught on tape, he said: "Actually, it's quite a lot of fun to fight; you know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling; it's fun to shoot some people."
In the context of Afghanistan, he said men who slapped around women for not wearing a veil had no manhood and it was fun to shoot them.
The commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen Mike Hagee, later issued a statement saying he had counselled Gen Mattis on his remarks.
The statement praised Gen Mattis as a brave and brilliant military leader and it seems there will be no disciplinary action.
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One of the problems with the military is that they purposefully go about desensitizing soldiers towards violence.
Bow ties are coool.
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how is that a problem.......you need killing machines out there.......not kindergarten teachers.
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perhaps they should ahve given the taliban flowers?
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Another example of the liberal mainstream media making much ado about nothing. Can you imagine if Dan Rather, Katie Couric, et al, had been covering WWII? They'd have been complaining about how "insensitive" General Patton was: "Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullshit.
Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle.
You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight. When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."
The General paused and looked over the crowd. "You are not all going to die," he said slowly. "Only two percent of you right here today would die in a major battle. Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood. Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base. Americans pride themselves on being He Men and they ARE He Men. Remember that the enemy is just as frightened as you are, and probably more so. They are not supermen."
"All through your Army careers, you men have bitched about what you call "chicken shit drilling". That, like everything else in this Army, has a definite purpose. That purpose is alertness. Alertness must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a fuck for a man who's not always on his toes. You men are veterans or you wouldn't be here. You are ready for what's to come. A man must be alert at all times if he expects to stay alive. If you're not alert, sometime, a German son-of-an-asshole-bitch is going to sneak up behind you and beat you to death with a sockful of shit!" The men roared in agreement.
Patton's grim expression did not change. "There are four hundred neatly marked graves somewhere in Sicily", he roared into the microphone, "All because one man went to sleep on the job". He paused and the men grew silent. "But they are German graves, because we caught the bastard asleep before they did". The General clutched the microphone tightly, his jaw out-thrust, and he continued, "An Army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horse shit. The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real fighting under fire than they know about fucking!"
The men slapped their legs and rolled in glee. This was Patton as the men had imagined him to be, and in rare form, too. He hadn't let them down. He was all that he was cracked up to be, and more. He had IT!
"We have the finest food, the finest equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world", Patton bellowed. He lowered his head and shook it pensively. Suddenly he snapped erect, faced the men belligerently and thundered, "Why, by God, I actually pity those poor sons-of-bitches we're going up against. By God, I do". The men clapped and howled delightedly. There would be many a barracks tale about the "Old Man's" choice phrases. They would become part and parcel of Third Army's history and they would become the bible of their slang.
"My men don't surrender", Patton continued, "I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he has been hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight back. That's not just bull shit either. The kind of man that I want in my command is just like the lieutenant in Libya, who, with a Luger against his chest, jerked off his helmet, swept the gun aside with one hand, and busted the hell out of the Kraut with his helmet. Then he jumped on the gun and went out and killed another German before they knew what the hell was coming off. And, all of that time, this man had a bullet through a lung. There was a real man!"
Patton stopped and the crowd waited. He continued more quietly, "All of the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters, either. Every single man in this Army plays a vital role. Don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. Every man has a job to do and he must do it. Every man is a vital link in the great chain. What if every truck driver suddenly decided that he didn't like the whine of those shells overhead, turned yellow, and jumped headlong into a ditch? The cowardly bastard could say, "Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands". But, what if every man thought that way? Where in the hell would we be now? What would our country, our loved ones, our homes, even the world, be like? No, Goddamnit, Americans don't think like that. Every man does his job. Every man serves the whole. Every department, every unit, is important in the vast scheme of this war. The ordnance men are needed to supply the guns and machinery of war to keep us rolling. The Quartermaster is needed to bring up food and clothes because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last man on K.P. has a job to do, even the one who heats our water to keep us from getting the 'G.I. Shits'."
Patton paused, took a deep breath, and continued, "Each man must not think only of himself, but also of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this Army. They should be killed off like rats. If not, they will go home after this war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the Goddamned cowards and we will have a nation of brave men. One of the bravest men that I ever saw was a fellow on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of a furious fire fight in Tunisia. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at a time like that. He answered, "Fixing the wire, Sir". I asked, "Isn't that a little unhealthy right about now?" He answered, "Yes Sir, but the Goddamned wire has to be fixed". I asked, "Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?" And he answered, "No, Sir, but you sure as hell do!" Now, there was a real man. A real soldier. There was a man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty might appear at the time, no matter how great the odds. And you should have seen those trucks on the rode to Tunisia. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they rolled over those son-of-a-bitching roads, never stopping, never faltering from their course, with shells bursting all around them all of the time. We got through on good old American guts. Many of those men drove for over forty consecutive hours. These men weren't combat men, but they were soldiers with a job to do. They did it, and in one hell of a way they did it. They were part of a team. Without team effort, without them, the fight would have been lost. All of the links in the chain pulled together and the chain became unbreakable."
The General paused and stared challengingly over the silent ocean of men. One could have heard a pin drop anywhere on that vast hillside. The only sound was the stirring of the breeze in the leaves of the bordering trees and the busy chirping of the birds in the branches of the trees at the General's left.
"Don't forget," Patton barked, "you men don't know that I'm here. No mention of that fact is to be made in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell happened to me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this Army. I'm not even supposed to be here in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the Goddamned Germans. Some day I want to see them raise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl, 'Jesus Christ, it's the Goddamned Third Army again and that son-of-a-fucking-bitch Patton'."
"We want to get the hell over there", Patton continued, "The quicker we clean up this Goddamned mess, the quicker we can take a little jaunt against the purple pissing Japs and clean out their nest, too. Before the Goddamned Marines get all of the credit."
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our soldiers will be severly fucked if the day comes that great generals are punished by the PC police.....
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It already happens, unfortunately.
Remember that General who got all that crap for daring to suggest that we were fighting "evil" in the middle east?
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Anyone who takes pleasure in injuring or killing another human being, whatever the circumstances, has become something less than human themselves.
I feel sorry for James Mattis.
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who's James Mattis?
....oh
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This really gets into the propaganda part of the war IMHO. If a high ranking official say's something like "Actually, it's quite a lot of fun to fight; you know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling; it's fun to shoot some people." that might not endear our troops to the folks their trying to help. It makes it harder for our troops & helps the bad guys. It could equate to more dead Americans. A slap on the wrist is appropiate.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
This really gets into the propaganda part of the war IMHO. If a high ranking official say's something like "Actually, it's quite a lot of fun to fight; you know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling; it's fun to shoot some people." that might not endear our troops to the folks their trying to help. It makes it harder for our troops & helps the bad guys. It could equate to more dead Americans. A slap on the wrist is appropiate.
Then, perhaps, the answer is for the liberal media to stop acting as this war's version of "Tokyo Rose" and stop spending so much time publicizing every screw up or intemperate comment our troops make.
Seriously. During WWII do you think the media did nothing but report the mistakes and failures of Patten, Eisenhower, etc., or instances of abuse of POWs?
No. Then the media was smart enough to know that such reports played into the hands of the enemy.
These days, however, the media is more interested in promoting its own anti-Bush agenda by playing up the failures regardless of how it looks to the terrorists and their allies.
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They should train soldiers to have respect, and they should teach them a code of honor. If they must go to war, they should understand it as a necessary evil. And that their killing in a warzone isn't "fun," its self-defense or again necessary evil.
Soldiers should be reminded that they have the same responsibility as police officers (could you imagine if a cop described beating someone in a riot as "fun?).
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
This really gets into the propaganda part of the war IMHO. If a high ranking official say's something like "Actually, it's quite a lot of fun to fight; you know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling; it's fun to shoot some people." that might not endear our troops to the folks their trying to help. It makes it harder for our troops & helps the bad guys. It could equate to more dead Americans. A slap on the wrist is appropiate.
Then, perhaps, the answer is for the liberal media to stop acting as this war's version of "Tokyo Rose" and stop spending so much time publicizing every screw up or intemperate comment our troops make.
Seriously. During WWII do you think the media did nothing but report the mistakes and failures of Patten, Eisenhower, etc., or instances of abuse of POWs?
No. Then the media was smart enough to know that such reports played into the hands of the enemy.
These days, however, the media is more interested in promoting its own anti-Bush agenda by playing up the failures regardless of how it looks to the terrorists and their allies.
there is no liberal media elite anti-bush agenda. if there were, he wouldn't have stood a chance of any sort of election. the media goes after the story, whatever the story. they're about money, not politics.
Except for Fox News. That station clearly has an agenda. Go watch Outfoxed.
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Now you might not believe it but under fire James Mattis is one of the finest human beings in the world.
All he needs is somebody to throw hand grenades at him the rest of his life.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Soldiers should be reminded that they have the same responsibility as police officers (could you imagine if a cop described beating someone in a riot as "fun?).
Wrong.
A soldier does NOT have the same responsibilty as a police officer.
A police officer is a civilian officer, interacting with the civilian population. A police officer is bound to follow the constitution and not violate the "civil rights" of the public.
A soldier is a military officer, interacting with foreign powers. A solider can shoot to kill under the rules of war and does not have to respect the non-existent (because they aren't Americans) constitutional rights of said foreign operatives.
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A soldiers job is to kill the enemy and come home alive.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Wrong.
A soldier does NOT have the same responsibilty as a police officer.
A police officer is a civilian officer, interacting with the civilian population. A police officer is bound to follow the constitution and not violate the "civil rights" of the public.
A soldier is a military officer, interacting with foreign powers. A solider can shoot to kill under the rules of war and does not have to respect the non-existent (because they aren't Americans) constitutional rights of said foreign operatives.
Soldiers without honor, who are desensitized to violence is how Abu Graib prison torture came about.
And, if you read the constitution it says "All men are created equal" not "all Americans are created equal."
Bottom line: If a soldier has to go to war and kill, its one thing. If they see it as a duty, a responsibility, and a necessary evil to kill then they're much better equipped to deal with the killings after the war is over.
If the soldiers see it as fun, and learn to dehumanize other people, then they'll be fucked up for life.
Let me ask you this, G-man? If your son went off to war, killed people and came back (so please don't answer "i would want them to come home alive). Would you prefer that they talked about killing because "there was no other option" or killing because it was "fun?"
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Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
A soldiers job is to kill the enemy and come home alive.
We're not debating soldiers killing. We're debating whether or not they should enjoy it.
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Small price to pay for all the bad guys being dead.
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i see the Pc police are here, these guys are fighting for their lives and you wanna have a say in what they say and how they say it, thats bullshit. this isnt a general who sets in the pentagon, from what ive read he has been on the front lines fighting. so for anyone to set back here and say that he shouldnt have said or should have worded different something show your ignorance or your arrogance. ive talked to many ex vets that have been in close combat killing people is not easy on the mind, for the human mind and heart to cope you have to come to whatever it is that makes it acceptable to you. now you may not have wanted these wars, but these guys were sent there, and to be so stupid as to sit safely behind you computer and say that you know better really makes you look silly....
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i see the Pc police are here, these guys are fighting for their lives and you wanna have a say in what they say and how they say it, thats bullshit. this isnt a general who sets in the pentagon, from what ive read he has been on the front lines fighting. so for anyone to set back here and say that he shouldnt have said or should have worded different something show your ignorance or your arrogance. ive talked to many ex vets that have been in close combat killing people is not easy on the mind, for the human mind and heart to cope you have to come to whatever it is that makes it acceptable to you. now you may not have wanted these wars, but these guys were sent there, and to be so stupid as to sit safely behind you computer and say that you know better really makes you look silly....
Where are you right now? Are you on the frontlines? Or are you sitting behind a safe computer doing the exact same thing I'm doing, debating the man's words and the actions of our troops.
I too have known a person who recently came back from Iraq. He's a very troubled man because of what he saw. Yes, he had to cope, but the way he did was to seperate himself from the righteousness of the patriotic line. He joined the service 20 years ago, knew the obligations, and hasn't tried to back out of his responsibility once. But he won't tell you its fun, because he can admit that innocent people are getting hurt, dying. That his friends were getting hurt, dying.
If this General can watch his own soldiers die (and by the odds at least 1 person under his command dies in Iraq) and call it "fun," then he's an asshole.
Bow ties are coool.
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and the liberal cries again....
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dude your tissue bill most be huge!
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can you do anything but post childish one-liners? I have respect for G-man because he types actual thought-out responses.
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Do you read Bsams posts? He's the wisest man among us.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i see the Pc police are here, these guys are fighting for their lives and you wanna have a say in what they say and how they say it, thats bullshit. this isnt a general who sets in the pentagon, from what ive read he has been on the front lines fighting. so for anyone to set back here and say that he shouldnt have said or should have worded different something show your ignorance or your arrogance. ive talked to many ex vets that have been in close combat killing people is not easy on the mind, for the human mind and heart to cope you have to come to whatever it is that makes it acceptable to you. now you may not have wanted these wars, but these guys were sent there, and to be so stupid as to sit safely behind you computer and say that you know better really makes you look silly....
Where are you right now? Are you on the frontlines? Or are you sitting behind a safe computer doing the exact same thing I'm doing, debating the man's words and the actions of our troops.
i hope you go back and re-read you post here and mine. i see now why you are so misinformed, you dont have comprehension skills. you are sitting behind a computer critisizing a man who has fought in the war(regardless of rank, i know to liberals if you have a high rank your service doesnt count), i am setting behind a computer saying the serviceman has earned the right to speak his mind. its different, ALOt but i can see your confusion, it fits in with the rest of your silly posts.
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Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
Do you read Bsams posts? He's the wisest man among us.
If by "wise" you mean "wise." Then I disagree.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
can you do anything but post childish one-liners? I have respect for G-man because he types actual thought-out responses.
well shit, i dont have your respect. hmm. that sucks.
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Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
Do you read Bsams posts? He's the wisest man among us.
oh it's true!
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
can you do anything but post childish one-liners? I have respect for G-man because he types actual thought-out responses.
well shit, i dont have your respect. hmm. that sucks.
Are you going to be okay? Do you need a ride home?
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Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
It's damn true.
If by "damn" you mean "fucking." And by "true" you mean "lie." Then I agree
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23,091
The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
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The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23,091 |
Don't get all butt hurt about it.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
can you do anything but post childish one-liners? I have respect for G-man because he types actual thought-out responses.
well shit, i dont have your respect. hmm. that sucks.
Are you going to be okay? Do you need a ride home?
comprehension son, com pre hen sion! get some hooked on phonics and come back to thios forum, youll be amazed!
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
can you do anything but post childish one-liners? I have respect for G-man because he types actual thought-out responses.
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
If by "damn" you mean "fucking." And by "true" you mean "lie." Then I agree
damn im good! I WIN AGAIN!
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 16,201 Likes: 80
Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 16,201 Likes: 80 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Then, perhaps, the answer is for the liberal media to stop acting as this war's version of "Tokyo Rose" and stop spending so much time publicizing every screw up or intemperate comment our troops make.
Seriously. During WWII do you think the media did nothing but report the mistakes and failures of Patten, Eisenhower, etc., or instances of abuse of POWs?
No. Then the media was smart enough to know that such reports played into the hands of the enemy.
These days, however, the media is more interested in promoting its own anti-Bush agenda by playing up the failures regardless of how it looks to the terrorists and their allies.
FOX & other conservative news organizations report the same news so going into liberal attack mode does nothing to strengthen your argument.
Fair play!
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
But others, CBS being a prime example, beat the stories to death, running them over and over even when there are no new developments and sensationalzing them.
For example, the Today show did a fairly lengthy segment on this, even bringing in an "expert" Pentagon correspondent to dig up dirt on the General's past.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
but this is the good part, i dont think he'll be disciplined, thank god we have a president that doesnt cave into the PC police, he protects the country by doing what is right not by what some PC whine bag thinks is right....
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