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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Yeah, I've read up on all of those prior. They've been deemed too few and too fractured to be conclusive.
By who?
Many scientists of the scientific community who are opposed by other scientists. You can follow which ever opinion you want, but considering evolutionists are the ones who have something to prove here, that inconsistency in findings as well as professional opinion is their decapitated sense of pride.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
See? Drugs!
drugs? see!
!eeS ?sgurD
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Yeah, I've read up on all of those prior. They've been deemed too few and too fractured to be conclusive.
By who?
Many scientists of the scientific community who are opposed by other scientists. You can follow which ever opinion you want, but considering evolutionists are the ones who have something to prove here, that inconsistency in findings as well as professional opinion is their decapitated sense of pride.
I would say both sides have something to prove, and I don't see where Creationists have proven anything.
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They're trying to get their physical "facts" of evolution by some standards that Creationists have brought to light (standards which Evolutionists haven't really disputed either). Nothing they've come up with has done so. In a nut shell, they've essentially proven that all of the public confidence and mass exhibition of the evolution theory is misplaced.
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I can't believe people are actually debating the value of creationism over that of evolution. You all say there are no facts to support the idea of intelligent order, right? I've always liked the analogy where if you found a fully functional house in the middle of the forest, would you question for a second that it was made by someone? Of course not. But the earth...no, just look at the human body and how its millions of parts work harmoniously to sustatin it. This happened simply on account of cosmic accidents?
The statistical improbabilites of evolution far outweigh the hypothetical 'evidence' that has been established in it's favor. No, there is no hard proof...as has been shown here by the lack of any being presented by the pro-evo group. If it was so well documented, you shouldn't have to strain to come up with these shoddy ass examples. On the other hand, creationism just makes sense when one examines the intricate balance that is played out constantly from the smallest micro-organism the the movement of our solar system and beyond. There was a thought process behind it all. Trying to deny that reveals either ignorance on your part or a bias in your observation.
And yes, religion should be taught in schools. Not just Christianity, but a cross section of the worlds great religions. People are defined by thier faith and if we are to understand eachother it's a good start to appreciate eachothers convictions.
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Yeah, that's pretty much the counter-argument to the mass mutation theory of evolution. When you have an isolated amount of sporadic mutations being reasoned as eventually creating biological harmony within individual genetic creatures, you got one hell of a fallacy. Mutations are cumulitive and random. They wouldn't create symmetry so much as they would create a mass amount of flaws.
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Quote:
klinton said:
I can't believe people are actually debating the value of creationism over that of evolution. You all say there are no facts to support the idea of intelligent order, right? I've always liked the analogy where if you found a fully functional house in the middle of the forest, would you question for a second that it was made by someone? Of course not. But the earth...no, just look at the human body and how its millions of parts work harmoniously to sustatin it. This happened simply on account of cosmic accidents?
The statistical improbabilites of evolution far outweigh the hypothetical 'evidence' that has been established in it's favor. No, there is no hard proof...as has been shown here by the lack of any being presented by the pro-evo group. If it was so well documented, you shouldn't have to strain to come up with these shoddy ass examples. On the other hand, creationism just makes sense when one examines the intricate balance that is played out constantly from the smallest micro-organism the the movement of our solar system and beyond. There was a thought process behind it all. Trying to deny that reveals either ignorance on your part or a bias in your observation.
And yes, religion should be taught in schools. Not just Christianity, but a cross section of the worlds great religions. People are defined by thier faith and if we are to understand eachother it's a good start to appreciate eachothers convictions.
Take your hate speech elsewhere. This forum is for rational science!
You know Jesus loves you.
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Yeah I agree with klinton. I think it's important to give both sides of the story! Piajet's developmental learning stages say that high school students have the ability to weigh the pros/cons, causes/effects and make up their own minds. That's what teachers should do. Present both sides of the story and ultimately leave it up to the students to critically think for themselves.
As for the issue of religion, I wish it could be talked about more in school ya know? Not just the Christian side but other sides as well. I think it would be a cool idea to look at the other religions and see when all the holy/sacred days are according to the different beliefs the student's have. Ya know, have each student present the basic philsophy of their religion to the class. Then each kid could compare/contrast the similarities and differences between them. Once again requiring them to think things through!
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Good post Princess, my thoughts precisely.
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you can't really expect that parents will allow their children to decide for themselves! why, that's un-American!
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The irony is in most of the (accademic) christia schools I've come across there is alot of discussion regarding other religions, not just challlenges but acctual examination.
I know a Christian educator who teaches at a Christian school and he teaches a course on "Modern Athiesm" In this class kids are REQUIRED to read Kahnt Russle Neitchi Marx and (my favorite athiest) Sartre. The class isn't even an apologetics class that attempts to disprove each theory it simply examines common themes and the results of those themes and where those ideas developed. Could you imagine for a second a secular educator getting away with teaching a class on Christianity requireing kids to read Agustine, Aquinus, Spourgen and Schaefer without a public outcry? i guess they just have a little catching up to do in regards to tollerance.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
To address the question in your subject...
I do think religion should be allowed to be discussed in public schools for the sake of educating and informing people about what other people and other religions believe. As long as a certain faith or viewpoint is not being imposed on anybody or treated like it's the only right way, I have no problem with religion being discussed.
As for evolution, I really don't see what the big deal is. I consider myself to be a person of faith, and when I was learning about evolution in school, I never felt like that faith was being challenged or threatened. I was learning what other people thought and theorized, and that was all there was to it. I never felt like anyone was saying to me "if you don't believe in evolution, you believe in superstitious nonsense." So it wasn't an issue for me.
I agree. Religions, atleast the five most popular religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism) should be studied at all grade and high schools for better understanding of other people's beliefs.
Quote:
Besides, I'm one of those people who believes that science helps prove G-d's existence. There's a specific, artistic order to the universe, and I can't accept the idea that it just happened by chance. There had to be a higher power at work pulling the strings and painting on a canvas. So I don't see religion and science as enemies or rivals.
I respectfully disagree that the complexity of the world would prove God's existence. BTW, my religious feelings are based on Romantic ideas, so I simply don't care about rationalistic "God proofs".
"Batman is only meaningful as an answer to a world which in its basics is chaotic and in the hands of the wrong people, where no justice can be found. I think it's very suitable to our perception of the world's condition today... Batman embodies the will to resist evil" -Frank Miller
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"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
rex said:
I think its better to believe in fact (evolution) than stories in some made up book that was written 40-60 years after the supposed events happened.
Rexy baby, evolution is not fact. Despite popular belief due to mass exhibition, evolution is not proven, and is on shakey grounds not only in theory but also in reputation.
But is the Biblic creation proven? Or for that matter, the Hinduistic creation?
If proof and rationalism is so important for you: Do you trust a book which approves of genocide and incest but then also benovelence and tolerance, and was written by several writers over centuries, starting for over 2000 years ago?
Keep science in science classes and religion in religion classes.
"Batman is only meaningful as an answer to a world which in its basics is chaotic and in the hands of the wrong people, where no justice can be found. I think it's very suitable to our perception of the world's condition today... Batman embodies the will to resist evil" -Frank Miller
"Conan, what's the meaning of life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"
-Conan the Barbarian
"Well, yeah."
-Jason E. Perkins
"If I had a dime for every time Pariah was right about something I'd owe twenty cents."
-Ultimate Jaburg53
"Fair enough. I defer to your expertise."
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
I agree. Religions, atleast the five most popular religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism) should be studied at all grade and high schools for better understanding of other people's beliefs.
Studied at all grade levels? That's a bit much...
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Studied at all grade levels? That's a bit much...
Why not? Religion is the most divisive influence known to man. What possible harm can come from an indepth knowledge of various faiths?
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
But is the Biblic creation proven? Or for that matter, the Hinduistic creation?
If proof and rationalism is so important for you: Do you trust a book which approves of genocide and incest but then also benovelence and tolerance, and was written by several writers over centuries, starting for over 2000 years ago?
Keep science in science classes and religion in religion classes.
You pretty much know nothing about the Bible.
And if there's a strong possibility that science should be concordant with religion, then they shouldn't be separated. There's more given proof of creation than there is for evolution. Are you so spiteful towards religion as to practice junk science--While you know its junk science--Just to keep the concept of God out of schools?
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The next time Pariah calls me condescending, I'm just going to laugh.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I laugh at everything he says.
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Yes this is quite interesting yes.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
The next time Pariah calls me condescending, I'm just going to laugh.
Actually I'm speaking out of mock anger.
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
Quote:
Besides, I'm one of those people who believes that science helps prove G-d's existence. There's a specific, artistic order to the universe, and I can't accept the idea that it just happened by chance. There had to be a higher power at work pulling the strings and painting on a canvas. So I don't see religion and science as enemies or rivals.
I respectfully disagree that the complexity of the world would prove God's existence. BTW, my religious feelings are based on Romantic ideas, so I simply don't care about rationalistic "God proofs".
Fair enough.
However, the complexity of the world isn't the one and only reason why I think G-d exists.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
I agree. Religions, atleast the five most popular religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism) should be studied at all grade and high schools for better understanding of other people's beliefs.
Studied at all grade levels? That's a bit much...
Heh... I meant that all grade schools and all high schools should have religion lessons/classes. I didn't exactly mean that religion should be taught at all grades. Sorry for the missunderstanding.
Actually, I studied religion from the 1st grade, but it was only about the Old and New Testament at that time and it was relatively simply. IIRC, I started with other religions at the 5th or the 6th grade. It became more complex around the 7th to 9th grade, and it became more about religeous practice and less about religeous "tales".
"Batman is only meaningful as an answer to a world which in its basics is chaotic and in the hands of the wrong people, where no justice can be found. I think it's very suitable to our perception of the world's condition today... Batman embodies the will to resist evil" -Frank Miller
"Conan, what's the meaning of life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"
-Conan the Barbarian
"Well, yeah."
-Jason E. Perkins
"If I had a dime for every time Pariah was right about something I'd owe twenty cents."
-Ultimate Jaburg53
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Pariah said:
Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
But is the Biblic creation proven? Or for that matter, the Hinduistic creation?
If proof and rationalism is so important for you: Do you trust a book which approves of genocide and incest but then also benovelence and tolerance, and was written by several writers over centuries, starting for over 2000 years ago?
Keep science in science classes and religion in religion classes.
Quote:
You pretty much know nothing about the Bible.
While I certainly don't the read the Bible as often as, lets say Bush Jr, I have read most parts of the New Testament and I have it on my bookshelf. As I've said before, I've been taught religion at grade school and (senior) high school, and since my childhood I have a book called My own book of Bible Stories written by Pat Alexander (1983).
Quote:
And if there's a strong possibility that science should be concordant with religion, then they shouldn't be separated. There's more given proof of creation than there is for evolution. Are you so spiteful towards religion as to practice junk science--While you know its junk science--Just to keep the concept of God out of schools?
1st, evolution is not "junk science". 2nd, if you had read my other posts, you would have known that I certainly am not "spiteful" against religion(s). Orthodox and certainly fundamentalistic interpretions of it/them, is another question... 
Last edited by Captain Sweden; 2005-03-13 12:14 PM.
"Batman is only meaningful as an answer to a world which in its basics is chaotic and in the hands of the wrong people, where no justice can be found. I think it's very suitable to our perception of the world's condition today... Batman embodies the will to resist evil" -Frank Miller
"Conan, what's the meaning of life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"
-Conan the Barbarian
"Well, yeah."
-Jason E. Perkins
"If I had a dime for every time Pariah was right about something I'd owe twenty cents."
-Ultimate Jaburg53
"Fair enough. I defer to your expertise."
-Prometheus
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Well, he does have a point, we should all think about it long and hard.
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heh
You said long and hard.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-13 5:40 PM.
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
While I certainly don't the read the Bible as often as, lets say Bush Jr, I have read most parts of the New Testament and I have it on my bookshelf. As I've said before, I've been taught religion at grade school and (senior) high school, and since my childhood I have a book called My own book of Bible Stories written by Pat Alexander (1983).
That's lovely.
Y'know Charles Manson read the Bible too. His favorite was revelations. D'you know that he thought the Four Horseman were the Beatles?
Quote:
1st, evolution is not "junk science". 2nd, if you had read my other posts, you would have known that I certainly am not "spiteful" against religion(s). Orthodox and certainly fundamentalistic interpretions of it/them, is another question...
.....No, you're spiteful.
And yes. It is junk science.
Evolution is what? Something based upon nothing right? Yeah, the term "junk science" is spot on.
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
Heh... I meant that all grade schools and all high schools should have religion lessons/classes. I didn't exactly mean that religion should be taught at all grades. Sorry for the missunderstanding.
I can't agree with a public elementary school having religion lessons. Save it for church.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
Heh... I meant that all grade schools and all high schools should have religion lessons/classes. I didn't exactly mean that religion should be taught at all grades. Sorry for the missunderstanding.
I can't agree with a public elementary school having religion lessons. Save it for church.
i wonder what is your view on sexual tolerance being taught in school?
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My grandfather had to fight to get his kids out of a little publicly funded farm school that spent more time teaching just one religion & less time on the basics. My fear is this would be abused & twisted into preaching & not teaching, a return to the way things were so to speak. As it is, public schools generally are having trouble covering the basics. Perhaps those of you that feel it's important should get your local churches to spend time exploring various religions?
Fair play!
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I agree I dont want a school teaching my child what to believe. I think what alot of people dont understand when they think religion should be taught in a public school is chances are the person teaching will not be of the same belief. For instance if they are christian their beliefs on being a christian may be different.
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I think an overall tolerance should be taught in school.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I think an overall tolerance should be taught in school.
Tolerance of what?
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Tolerance of bsams :P
All joking aside, it's more of a problem trying to keep all religion out of school instead of in it. It's sad when you have spring and winter holidays, and november celebration instead of Halloween, Christmas, and Easter!
I really don't see anything wrong with talking about what a person believes in if it tides into the curriculum...student's history books are filled with wars between different cultures. Why not talk about their cultural backgrounds and religions? It would help the kiddos understand the similarities and differences between what people around the world believe.
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i also dont see the problem with intolerence, if you tell someone they cant believe a certain way i think is equal to telling somone they have to believe a certain way.....
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