R3x asked a philisophical question, with his own mix, on a thread that was deleted. I responded, and when I hit post I was greeted with a "This post has been deleted" message. Since I've actually spent time pondering this question, I'll post it, in the utmost seriousness, with a serious answer.
r3x29yz4a asked:
can God create a boulder so big that even he can't lift it? and if he did, could he work out to get stronger or is his strength level set?
My response:
That is a trick question meant to sabatage ones faith in an omniscient, all powerful God. If he could create a boulder heavier than he could lift, that would mean he was not all powerful, because he could not lift it. But if he could not create something heavier than he could lift, that would also mean he was not all powerful. However, if you are to argue that it was God who created the laws of physics that determine the amount of force and energy it would require to lift a boulder of a certain mass, you could argue that God might not have to adhere to the same rules of physics that we do.
Every thing he created seems to be under some form of law to keep things from becoming anarchic. Why would God create unnecessary laws for himself that would limit his abilities?
Quote: Balloonknot said: How about this scenario, I find where you live, beat your head in with a Cinder Block, Take pictures and Share them with the Rest of the MB community.
Sounds pretty good to me
Oh...my...God....I have to agree with Balloonknot. Swing by my place on the way and I'll help (Montreal's not so far from Long Island).
The philosophy isn't brilliant though. You are applying human limitations and comprehension to an omnicient being. You are assuming (by way of comparrison) that we should be bound to the same existence as a batch of sea-monkeys that we may hatch (note: merely hatch, not create from nothing to our own design). The examples you are listing here are ridiculous. God exists above the limitations of our existence.
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: but would god create laws that he himself doesn't have to follow? if so, then what's the point of having laws in the first place?
Oddly enough you've stumbled oppon the key to this question. God does not create laws that he doen't have to follow. There ARE things that God cannot do. He cannot defy the very laws of logic that He Himself defines. God cannot be God and not God at the same time in the same relationship. God cannot create a new God he cannot lie and He cannot create a boulder that He cannot move. God creates from within himself not from without because there is nothing outside of God.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: but would god create laws that he himself doesn't have to follow? if so, then what's the point of having laws in the first place?
Oddly enough you've stumbled oppon the key to this question. God does not create laws that he doen't have to follow. There ARE things that God cannot do. He cannot defy the very laws of logic that He Himself defines. God cannot be God and not God at the same time in the same relationship. God cannot create a new God he cannot lie and He cannot create a boulder that He cannot move. God creates from within himself not from without because there is nothing outside of God.
but wouldn't that make him a slave to his own creation? a slave to the rules of fate that he himself wrote. wouldn't that stop him from making miracles since he cannot change the destiny that he wrote and is slave too? therefore any miracle or "act of god" would have to be predestined and predetermined. and that means that EVERYTHING is predetermined by god at the start of time and the creation, so there is no free will at all.
Quote: but wouldn't that make him a slave to his own creation? a slave to the rules of fate that he himself wrote. wouldn't that stop him from making miracles since he cannot change the destiny that he wrote and is slave too?
No He's not a slave to his creation, He simply is what He is. He is unchanging. When he creates something he doesn't need to go back and fixes it He exists in all things and in all time and knows the result of His actions when He makes them. I don't see how this limits him from miracles and frankly miracles don't deny the laws of logic.
Quote: therefore any miracle or "act of god" would have to be predestined and predetermined.
Yea, God does "plan ahead" (I realise that's a crass understatement of the perfect will of God)
Quote: and that means that EVERYTHING is predetermined by god at the start of time and the creation, so there is no free will at all.
Freewill is an often missunderstood concept. Free will means simply that you are free to act within your nature. A fish is free in the ocean even though he can't breathe on dry land. It was predetermined from before my birth that i cannot breath under watter without assistance. I can't then sink myself under the sea and will myself to breathe. Does that mean my will isn't free? In a certain way it isn't it all depends on how you define "free will". If your definition of free will is the freedom to defy those limits that have been predetermined to us then I guess we simply don't have a free willHowever if you define free will as the freedom to act within our nature then we do. An axample would be Judas, he freely defied Christ and in doing so God's plan that He had forordained and fortold through the prophets came to fruition.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
Quote: wannabuyamonkey said: No He's not a slave to his creation, He simply is what He is. He is unchanging. When he creates something he doesn't need to go back and fixes it He exists in all things and in all time and knows the result of His actions when He makes them. I don't see how this limits him from miracles and frankly miracles don't deny the laws of logic. [/quotes] because miracles by definition radically alter the course of natural events set in place by god. so when he does a miracle he's basically changing the course of fate/destiny that he already preordained.
Quote: Yea, God does "plan ahead" (I realise that's a crass understatement of the perfect will of God)
if god's perfect then why aren't humans perfect if we're created in his image?
Quote: Freewill is an often missunderstood concept. Free will means simply that you are free to act within your nature.
So you don't believe people can change? Do you believe that who we are and our actions are set from birth by defining our nature?
Quote: A fish is free in the ocean even though he can't breathe on dry land. It was predetermined from before my birth that i cannot breath under watter without assistance. I can't then sink myself under the sea and will myself to breathe. Does that mean my will isn't free? In a certain way it isn't it all depends on how you define "free will". If your definition of free will is the freedom to defy those limits that have been predetermined to us then I guess we simply don't have a free willHowever if you define free will as the freedom to act within our nature then we do. An axample would be Judas, he freely defied Christ and in doing so God's plan that He had forordained and fortold through the prophets came to fruition.
but was it really free will if the actions themselves were already decided by god? isn't the whole point of free will that we're here and we determine our nature (good/evil) not that we're puppets of god's plan for destiny.
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: if god's perfect then why aren't humans perfect if we're created in his image?
Originally, Adam and Eve were perfect. They could not have gotten sick, over weight, old, and they would never have died. The reason humans aren't perfect goes back to the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve's sin. God had issued a command, "Out of every tree of the garden you may eat, but as for the tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad you must not eat, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
While Eve was near the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, the serpent, possessed by Satan, began to tell her that if she ate from it she would not die, but would instead by like God. Thoroughly decieved, she ate the fruit and brought some to Adam. However, Adam was not decieved but ate the fruit anyway. So for disobeying the only rule God gave them they were punished by losing their perfection and they transferred that imperfection to their children.
Quote:
but was it really free will if the actions themselves were already decided by god? isn't the whole point of free will that we're here and we determine our nature (good/evil) not that we're puppets of god's plan for destiny.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 says, "time and unpredictable occurance happen to them all." I have a hard time believe God has a "plan" for every person. If that were true that would make God unjust because nobody could choose of their own free will to worship Him or not, and so any punishment would be unrighteous. Also the whole test in the garden of Eden would have been a farce with mans eternal life hanging in an unjust balance. That would not be the act of a loving, righteous God.
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: if god's perfect then why aren't humans perfect if we're created in his image?
Originally, Adam and Eve were perfect. They could not have gotten sick, over weight, old, and they would never have died. The reason humans aren't perfect goes back to the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve's sin. God had issued a command, "Out of every tree of the garden you may eat, but as for the tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad you must not eat, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
While Eve was near the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, the serpent, possessed by Satan, began to tell her that if she ate from it she would not die, but would instead by like God. Thoroughly decieved, she ate the fruit and brought some to Adam. However, Adam was not decieved but ate the fruit anyway. So for disobeying the only rule God gave them they were punished by losing their perfection and they transferred that imperfection to their children.
By standards of human logic, this makes no sense. If Adam and Eve were "perfect," how could Eve have been tempted or deceived? Does not "perfection" mean an infallibility to what we think of as human weaknesses?
Quote: if god's perfect then why aren't humans perfect if we're created in his image?
Because beig created in his likeness isn't the same as being exact duplicates.
Quote: So you don't believe people can change?
I didn't say they couldn't change. People CAN change all they want within thier nature. It's like I said, you can't will yourself to breathe under watter, because you are limited by your nature.
Quote: Do you believe that who we are and our actions are set from birth by defining our nature?
I'm not sure this is correct grahmmar, because I'm having trouble figuring what you're asking. But to try to answer I do think who we are is defined by our nature to a degree, we can fine tune that and express ourselves, but we can't redefine our nature. That's not the same as our every action being controlled.
Quote: but was it really free will if the actions themselves were already decided by god?
That's why I point out that people define free will differently. Depending on how you define free will perhaps you wouldn't say it's really free will. Free will hasn't been guarenteed so I don't think it proves anything to point out that your deffinition isn't being honoured.
Quote: isn't the whole point of free will that we're here and we determine our nature (good/evil) not that we're puppets of god's plan for destiny.
No, I would dissagree that that isn't the point of free will to determine our own nature. The Bible does say that all things work together for good for those who's trust is in Him. For that to come to fruition God must have some hand in our destiny.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: if god's perfect then why aren't humans perfect if we're created in his image?
Originally, Adam and Eve were perfect. They could not have gotten sick, over weight, old, and they would never have died. The reason humans aren't perfect goes back to the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve's sin. God had issued a command, "Out of every tree of the garden you may eat, but as for the tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad you must not eat, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
While Eve was near the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, the serpent, possessed by Satan, began to tell her that if she ate from it she would not die, but would instead by like God. Thoroughly decieved, she ate the fruit and brought some to Adam. However, Adam was not decieved but ate the fruit anyway. So for disobeying the only rule God gave them they were punished by losing their perfection and they transferred that imperfection to their children.
By standards of human logic, this makes no sense. If Adam and Eve were "perfect," how could Eve have been tempted or deceived? Does not "perfection" mean an infallibility to what we think of as human weaknesses?
It's a nice story, but that's all it is.
Being created in a state of perfection still makes you a created being. Perfect in regard to the original created state of humanity means human beings had a clean slate - they hadn't done anything against the will of God and weren't accountable for anything they had done, thus they weren't required to live under the consequences of corruption. Image of God means that human beings were created to reflect God, not to be God. As such, they were not all-powerful or all-knowing, and thus were not infallible and impervious to temptation. If you don't like that way of explaining it, go find the Tardis, jump back to the eighteenth century, and take it up with John Wesley.
Scripture says in as many words 'God cannot be tempted, nor does He tempt anyone'. (Look it up for yourself, if you've got nothing better to do than waste your time arguing with me.) But nowhere does it extend the same assertion to human beings. By your logic Lucifer would never have fallen, as he, too, would have been immune to temptation.
It's never just 'a nice story', if you're really willing to do more than scratch the surface and jump to conclusions.
Quote: Captain Sammitch said: It's never just 'a nice story', if you're really willing to do more than scratch the surface and jump to conclusions.
All you have are words on a page, translated and re-translated, over the last couple of millenia or so. "Jumping to conclusions" seems to me really all you have left.
If your own faith says that this is true and is The Way, that's fine. But don't foist it on the rest of us and don't get mad if others wish to interpret differently the same texts you're interpreting.
Quote: wannabuyamonkey said: Plus are they ever said to be "perfect"?
It was implied by Genesis 1:31
31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good.
By deeming everything "very good", they met Gods standards and since Gods standard is nothing less than perfection, all these things could be deemed perfect.
Quote: wannabuyamonkey said: Plus are they ever said to be "perfect"?
It was implied by Genesis 1:31
31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good.
By deeming everything "very good", they met Gods standards and since Gods standard is nothing less than perfection, all these things could be deemed perfect.
Very good, yes, but I think if they we PERFECT then they wouldn't have made a mistake. very good might be interpreted as perfect, but the implicit should alwayse be interpreted in light of the explicit and we have explicit demonstration that they were not perfect.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
Very good, yes, but I think if they we PERFECT then they wouldn't have made a mistake. very good might be interpreted as perfect, but the implicit should alwayse be interpreted in light of the explicit and we have explicit demonstration that they were not perfect.
but they chose to disobey Gods command using their own free will. It was not a mistake, it was deliberate. How does that translate to imperfection?
Quote: Jim Jackson said: This all reminds me of dogs chasing their tails...round and round....
Had to get your two cents in didn't you? I guess we couldn't discuss specifics of what we believe without being told how stupid we are. Thank you for your contribution.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
Very good, yes, but I think if they we PERFECT then they wouldn't have made a mistake. very good might be interpreted as perfect, but the implicit should alwayse be interpreted in light of the explicit and we have explicit demonstration that they were not perfect.
but they chose to disobey Gods command using their own free will. It was not a mistake, it was deliberate. How does that translate to imperfection?
They chose to do wrong. They chose sin. Perhaps your defining perfect differently than I am, because I define perfect as without flaw and the decision to sin was a flawed decision.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
My implication was that, like the dog, you're never going to "catch the tail" you're after, which is the Answer to What Is God. The dog isn't stupid for chasing his tail. He chases it because that's his nature.
My implication was that, like the dog, you're never going to "catch the tail" you're after, which is the Answer to What Is God. The dog isn't stupid for chasing his tail. He chases it because that's his nature.
see: back handed compliment
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
My implication was that, like the dog, you're never going to "catch the tail" you're after, which is the Answer to What Is God. The dog isn't stupid for chasing his tail. He chases it because that's his nature.
Is it your nature to chase nice big and hairy manly assholes to violate?
They may have been perfect, but they were still human. Lets say you really want something, but you know you can't have it. The more you dwell on the object of your desire the more you will crave it until you try to get it. It's human nature: the more you want something, the more you'll try to get it. It can work both for us and against us.
An example of it working against:
A kid sees a new video game he wants. His parents say they can't afford it, but instead of giving it up and walking away he lets his desires take over and he steals it. Somebody catches the kid and reports him, causing him to get in trouble. He could have avoided the trouble by walking away and ignoring his desire, but chose the wrong path.
An example of it working for:
You have an idea for a book you want to write. For the amount of time, energy, and research it will take everyone tries to convince you that it won't pay off enough to make it worth your while, but you refuse to listen to them and work to write it anyway. It gets rave reviews and opens up the door for you to write more stories in a new career.
My point is, Eve knew not to eat the fruit. But Satan, using the guise of a snake, convinced her that if she ate the fruit nothing would happen and she would be like God. Since Satan is cunning, who knows exactly what he did to convince her, but he did and instead of turning away and listening to God her desire began to take hold. Adam, on the other hand, was not decieved as stated in 1 Timothy 2:14- "14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression." He knew better and didn't believe the lie for one second, but he still chose to do it.
Quote: Stupid Doog said: So how does the ability to choose to obey or disobey constitute imperfection?
To obey or disobey a flawed creature wouldn't, but to sin against your creator is imperfect. God is absolutely perfect therefore he defines perfection to disobey Him is flawed.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
Before we continue will you please define perfect as you're using it, because you say they were both perfect and human, but then you go to show that thier humanity is the foundation of thier flaws "Eve knew...BUT" but what? If she was perfect she would know what's right and she would do what's right.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
As I see it, Adam and Eve were created without sin in them. They were given perfect health and perfect bodies with the gift of living forever on an Earth designed for their comfort. They still had human traits like free will, but they had no fear, no hatred, or any other quirks that come along with them. As a simple test of obedience all they had to do was not eat the fruit of one tree. Seeing as it was a test they must have had the option of disobeying God, right? But they had no reason to question Gods authority until Satan came along.
Quote: Stupid Doog said: But they had no reason to question Gods authority until Satan came along.
Which is why this drama has continued for so long. We've seen the fruits of living outside of God's will...it's not pretty. His creation, in it's intended state, was as close to perfection as physical beings can get. He is not a monster who would create drones that cannot defy His will...He gave us the choice, and we acted upon it (foolishly...but freely).
