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Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
I'll try and explain it.
As I see it, Adam and Eve were created without sin in them. They were given perfect health and perfect bodies with the gift of living forever on an Earth designed for their comfort. They still had human traits like free will, but they had no fear, no hatred, or any other quirks that come along with them. As a simple test of obedience all they had to do was not eat the fruit of one tree. Seeing as it was a test they must have had the option of disobeying God, right? But they had no reason to question Gods authority until Satan came along.
Right so they were given a test and failed proving themselves imperfect. They may have had perfect health etc... but as you say they were given a test and they failed. This really seems like a debate over semantics and all I'm getting out of it is confusion as to how you define perfection.
Adam and Eve had the abbility to sin as well as the ability not to sin. If they were perfect they would have chosen the the latter rather than the former.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
But they had no reason to question Gods authority until Satan came along.
Which is why this drama has continued for so long. We've seen the fruits of living outside of God's will...it's not pretty. His creation, in it's intended state, was as close to perfection as physical beings can get. He is not a monster who would create drones that cannot defy His will...He gave us the choice, and we acted upon it (foolishly...but freely).
agreed although I would add that in heaven mankind will reach the perfection of full sanctification.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Right so they were given a test and failed proving themselves imperfect. They may have had perfect health etc... but as you say they were given a test and they failed. This really seems like a debate over semantics and all I'm getting out of it is confusion as to how you define perfection.
Adam and Eve had the abbility to sin as well as the ability not to sin. If they were perfect they would have chosen the the latter rather than the former.
Eh. This sounds very slippery to me. I think you guys should seperate terms because it seems you're confusing "pure" with "fallible".
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God could have just destroyed Adam and Eve and started over, but Satan raised a point. Who has a right to decide for themselves what is right or wrong? God, or man? God knew that man could not and set the prophecy of the messiah in motion to save mankind from sin.
God created humans and his angels to be perfect, in his image, and he gave us the choice to obey him or disobey him but no one ever had reason to. Satan became jealous of God because he wanted the type of veneration and power God had, and so convinced the first humans to join him. Satan, Adam, and Eve all chose to disobey him, however Adam and Satans rebellions were willful while Satan used tactics to fool Eve. Take this into consideration. It's a possiblity of what happened; I can't prove it but it's a possibility that would fit in with Satans objective. What if Satan made the snake take a bite of the fruit? Nothing happened to the snake. It was still alive. So Eve reasoned it was safe to eat the fruit, and so she did. Then she took the fruit to Adam and told him everything. Adam knew it was wrong to eat the fruit, but for whatever reason (fear of losing his wife that he felt a special attachment maybe?) he did. Because of that sin entered their life. Then God formally questioned them and Adam put the blame on God and his wife. Who knows what would have happened if Adam had shown remorse? Perphaps things would still be as they are, perhaps God would have allowed their children to retain perfection while Adam and Eve passed away. However, the point that Satan raised by his rebellion was a serious one and needed answered for the benefit of his creations. If his perfect creatures were drones incapable of independent thought there would be no reason to doubt Gods sovereignty. However, since he gave us the ability to reason and think he knew it was something that needed answering so nobody would ever challenge him again.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Right so they were given a test and failed proving themselves imperfect. They may have had perfect health etc... but as you say they were given a test and they failed. This really seems like a debate over semantics and all I'm getting out of it is confusion as to how you define perfection.
Adam and Eve had the abbility to sin as well as the ability not to sin. If they were perfect they would have chosen the the latter rather than the former.
Eh. This sounds very slippery to me. I think you guys should seperate terms because it seems you're confusing "pure" with "fallible".
Right, that's why I keep asking him to define what he means by "prefect" I think it could be he simply means pure, but I don't know because he hasn't answered my request for a deffinition.
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God could have just destroyed Adam and Eve and started over, but Satan raised a point. Who has a right to decide for themselves what is right or wrong? God, or man? God knew that man could not and set the prophecy of the messiah in motion to save mankind from sin.
OK, I think we've strayed very far from the original point and i don't really feel like debating the specifics of theology, but to raise the point that your vision of the events seems to have Satan making God change his mind. Not being a dispensationalist I don't think that God changes his covenants to adapt to unforseen events. I've had that debate plenty and it's not one i feel like taking up in this forum.
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Well, to be honest, to me your definition of perfection seems to be humans with a drone-like hive mind.
Perfect humans are just like us but have no sickness, death, hatred, fear, etc. They would, however, have free will. maybe it's our definition of free will that's different? My definiton is absolute freedom of choice. Let me try and simplify my understanding. there's point A and point B. According to me, free will is being given the route through point A, even though point B is there but not mentioned. However, once you realize there is a route to B you have the option of taking it even though it's dangerous and you're guarenteed not to survive.
To me, your understanding of perfection is that there is only point a. You are only programmed to realize that, and to think differently is a flaw in the programing.
is that about right?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
God could have just destroyed Adam and Eve and started over, but Satan raised a point. Who has a right to decide for themselves what is right or wrong? God, or man? God knew that man could not and set the prophecy of the messiah in motion to save mankind from sin.
OK, I think we've strayed very far from the original point and i don't really feel like debating the specifics of theology, but to raise the point that your vision of the events seems to have Satan making God change his mind. Not being a dispensationalist I don't think that God changes his covenants to adapt to unforseen events. I've had that debate plenty and it's not one i feel like taking up in this forum.
If you feel like ending the debate then I'll agree to drop it.
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Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
Well, to be honest, to me your definition of perfection seems to be humans with a drone-like hive mind.
Perfect humans are just like us but have no sickness, death, hatred, fear, etc. They would, however, have free will. maybe it's our definition of free will that's different? My definiton is absolute freedom of choice. Let me try and simplify my understanding. there's point A and point B. According to me, free will is being given the route through point A, even though point B is there but not mentioned. However, once you realize there is a route to B you have the option of taking it even though it's dangerous and you're guarenteed not to survive.
To me, your understanding of perfection is that there is only point a. You are only programmed to realize that, and to think differently is a flaw in the programing.
is that about right?
No it's not at all, but right now I can't fathom how it got so far from what I was initially trying to communicate. I think you're trying to make some point about free will that I'm not even addressing in my saying Adam and Eve were imperfect. I'm saying perfect people wouldn't sin. I also think that "perfect humans" is an oxymoron. Your view of perfection may insist on a "free will" but my deffinition is the classic one meaning without flaw.
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I don't get where you think that i've ever implied that perfection = drone like hive mind. I'm not sure where this is going.
As far as dropping the debate I was mainly saying I didn't want to drift into the debate between dispensationalism and covenant theology.
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and I'm rationalizing how a perfect couple could have chosen to sin. My argument rests on their choosing to disobey God after being given the option. Before Satan they had no question of Gods sovereignty.
I'm trying to understand you. I am. So you mean that in order for a human to be flawless they cannot have free will to choose their actions?
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So where did Satan come from?
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Quote:
PJP said:
my arse
[url=http://www.robkamphausen.com/ubbthreads/...e=0&fpart=2 ]the G-man said[/url]
Wednesday and I have an open relationship. And we believe in sharing.
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Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
and I'm rationalizing how a perfect couple could have chosen to sin. My argument rests on their choosing to disobey God after being given the option. Before Satan they had no question of Gods sovereignty.
I'm trying to understand you. I am. So you mean that in order for a human to be flawless they cannot have free will to choose their actions?
No, what I'm saying is if a person was flawless they would have the freedom to choose sin, but they wouldn't. Jesus being the perfect (no pun intended) example. He wasn't an automoton, He was as described by Scripture fully man he chose never to sin. Free Will if anything exposes out true nature it is THE TEST as it were. If Adam and Eve had no free will they may have apeared "perfect" but would have no way of demonstrating it. Jesus and Adam are our two examples both were uncorrupted with sin and both were given a choice Adam in his choice demonstrated himslf to be flawed and Jesus demonstrated Himself to be perfect.
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No, the point of Jesus coming to Earth was the prove Satan a liar and show that a perfect human could stay loyal to God. Satan's not stupid because he would know that you could not tempt a perfect person if that were true. Otherwise Satan wouldn't have bothered when he tempted Jesus after 40 days on the mountain when Jesus was at his weakest.
Also Jesus is called, "the last Adam" in 1 Corinthians 15:45. That would be a wrong comparison if Adam was indeed a flawed creature.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
So where did Satan come from?
Satan was originally an Angel serving God. The name "Satan" was given to him after he rebelled against God by calling God a liar and telling Eve she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit. James gives the process that led to him sinning in James 1:14, 15. He desired to rival Gods sovereignty, and so designed to turn Eve away from God. Not only that, but his example led to other angels to fall away from God and they were given the title Demons.
Some give Satan the name, "Lucifer" which is actually a Latin translation of the Hebrew word "heh-lel" meaning "shining one".
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Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
No, the point of Jesus coming to Earth was the prove Satan a liar and show that a perfect human could stay loyal to God. Satan's not stupid because he would know that you could not tempt a perfect person if that were true. Otherwise Satan wouldn't have bothered when he tempted Jesus after 40 days on the mountain when Jesus was at his weakest.
Also Jesus is called, "the last Adam" in 1 Corinthians 15:45. That would be a wrong comparison if Adam was indeed a flawed creature.
First calling him the last Adam doesn't mean he was in every way teh same as Adam. It refers to the representitive nature of both Adam and Jesus, not thier perfection. Also there are many reasons Jesus came to Earth to point out one doesn't negate another, besides the PRIMARY reason for Christ coming to Earth was to live a perfect life in our place and to die for our sins (again in our place). I'm getting SO confused because here you say "Satan's not stupid because he would know that you could not tempt a perfect person if that were true." What are you saying? Let me ask this plain and simple. Is sin a flaw?
Here's the problem as i see it. Adam was without phisical defect, therefore he was phiscally "perfect" and they were uncorrupted by sin, but then they proved that there was something lacking in thier decision makeing process that revealed itself when they were tempted. A lack that was found missing in Christ when He was tempted. Christ and Adam were similar but not identical. You could say that Adam lived a perfect life PRIOR to the fall but he wasn't alltogether perfect. I still want to know how you define perfect.
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i know we're going to find a fundemental area in which we dissagree, but I think right now this is more a case of we're missunderstanding each other.
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Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
So where did Satan come from?
Satan was originally an Angel serving God.
Where did he come from? Did God create Satan? If so, why would God create something that could (and did) rebel against him?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
So where did Satan come from?
Satan was originally an Angel serving God.
Where did he come from? Did God create Satan? If so, why would God create something that could (and did) rebel against him?
Yes He created satan and yes He would create something that could rebel against Him. That ones also aperant in the fact that He created man, who rebeled against Him.
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I define perfection as without flaw, as you do. However, I do not believe the ability to defy God is a flaw, but is instead a characteristic of free will. God wanted our obedience to him to be our choice but since Adam and Eve chose to defy Him God took away His protection and allowed them to be flawed.
Quote:
Also there are many reasons Jesus came to Earth to point out one doesn't negate another...
You are correct and I apologize. There are many reasons, I just stated one of them.
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I define perfection as without flaw, as you do. However, I do not believe the ability to defy God is a flaw,
I'm gonna try and be carefull not to word this wrong, but the ABILITY to defy God is not a flaw, but the impulse to do so IS.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Yes He created satan and yes He would create something that could rebel against Him. That ones also aperant in the fact that He created man, who rebeled against Him.
Why? If God wanted obedience, why create things that could disobey him?
And if he's omniscient, then he should have known Adam and Eve would eat of the fruit. Why not just punish them from the outset?
The dog and the tail, my friends...
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Yes He created satan and yes He would create something that could rebel against Him. That ones also aperant in the fact that He created man, who rebeled against Him.
Why? If God wanted obedience, why create things that could disobey him?
And if he's omniscient, then he should have known Adam and Eve would eat of the fruit. Why not just punish them from the outset?
The dog and the tail, my friends...
I was going to answer your questions, but the last comment suggests to me that you could really care less, so I'll save myself the time.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm gonna try and be carefull not to word this wrong, but the ABILITY to defy God is not a flaw, but the impulse to do so IS.
It wasn't an impulisive action, though. Both of them had thought it out and still chose to do so. I will agree though that the impulse to defy God is a flaw.
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I think a better word would be "fallibility". Free will isn't a flaw.
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i think we may all be near a consenus, tell me if we all agree on the following statement (Jim can intergect with something about the trivility of it all and dogs and tails and whatnot  ) The ability to defy God is not a flaw, but the decision to do so is.
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Not the decision itself. The act maybe.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Not the decision itself. The act maybe.
but the decision is an act. Like Jesus said "If you lust after a woman you commit adultry in your heart".
If we were not flawed we would not lean towards sin, but to rightousness.
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Deciding something in and of itself is not bad. It's the intent behind the decision that creates flaws in a person's righteousness.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
I was going to answer your questions, but the last comment suggests to me that you could really care less, so I'll save myself the time.
Your answers will be no better and no worse than anybody else's.
I do care about the answers to these questions, but frankly, I'm convinced we're not going to get them. You're trying to figure out God based on ancient written text. You're trying to lose human logic to answer the illogical (God wants obedience but he creates things that can disobey...He's the creator of All, and is All Good, yet the evil of Satan exists and is permitted to exist).
You want to figure out what God was thinking? Science is the best way to get that done. If you understand how the Universe operates physically, chemically, and biologically, then you've figured out what God was thinking.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Deciding something in and of itself is not bad. It's the intent behind the decision that creates flaws in a person's righteousness.
So was Jesus wrong?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I was going to answer your questions, but the last comment suggests to me that you could really care less, so I'll save myself the time.
Your answers will be no better and no worse than anybody else's.
I do care about the answers to these questions, but frankly, I'm convinced we're not going to get them. You're trying to figure out God based on ancient written text. You're trying to lose human logic to answer the illogical (God wants obedience but he creates things that can disobey...He's the creator of All, and is All Good, yet the evil of Satan exists and is permitted to exist).
You want to figure out what God was thinking? Science is the best way to get that done. If you understand how the Universe operates physically, chemically, and biologically, then you've figured out what God was thinking.
OK, if that's what you want to believe, more powere to you, but there is an answer and there's nothing illogical about it.
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Then tell me how an all-Good God creates evil and permits its continued existence. Why did he allow Adam and Eve to "fall" in the first place?
Please, try making sense of the story of the Garden of Eden.
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Jim Jackson said:
Then tell me how an all-Good God creates evil and permits its continued existence. Why did he allow Adam and Eve to "fall" in the first place?
Please, try making sense of the story of the Garden of Eden.
I've been asked that question before and 9 out of 10 times I answer it, but it's not a short answer and do you really care? If I gave you a satifactory answer would it change you in any way? would your view of Cristianity be radically different?
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I obviously cannot compel you. If you wish to try to address the question, that's cool.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,930 Likes: 34
Doog the MIGHTY 10000+ posts
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Doog the MIGHTY 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,930 Likes: 34 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
i think we may all be near a consenus, tell me if we all agree on the following statement (Jim can intergect with something about the trivility of it all and dogs and tails and whatnot )
The ability to defy God is not a flaw, but the decision to do so is.
I wish I could answer this question in such a black and white way, but I can't. If somebody decides to defy God, then I guess the act and the decision are kind of interwoven, no? However, I don't think the decision was flawed as in it was caused by a defect. They were told not to eat the fruit and they had no reason to until Satan gave them another option and convinced them that was better. It wasn't like they just one day decided to do it, it required Satan to put the desire into their hearts.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Yes He created satan and yes He would create something that could rebel against Him. That ones also aperant in the fact that He created man, who rebeled against Him.
Why? If God wanted obedience, why create things that could disobey him?
God wants willful obedience. Obedience because we want to. Obedience because we love God. A God who can do anything hardly needs robots to do His work for Him.
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