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You can vote as often as you like. Hopefully I haven't missed any obvious ones....
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Death
Spider Jerusalem
King Mob
Animal Man
Cliff Steele
the Corinthian
Shade
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I'd say Lucifer if it wasn't for the fact that Vertigo didn't invent him.
And after that I wouldn't say I actually like the other characters listed. They just fit the invention of the story to make it flow.
Other.
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Where's Amerpsand? How can you have a poll and NOT include a monkey?
"What kind of scary ass clowns came to your birthday?"
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Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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You mean you want to spank the monkey.
A broader spread this time around, not surprisingly.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I'd say Lucifer if it wasn't for the fact that Vertigo didn't invent him.
John Donne's Lucifer in Paradise Lost was the inspiration for Carey's proud, arrogant and powerful version of Lucifer. Lucifer as he first appeared in Sandman was a Bowie-esque aesthete, who later changed to a weary king of hell.
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My point was that neither Catholics nor Catholic doctrine have described him to be any different. Donne wasn't the first origin of a depicted cunning and proud Satan.
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Most Christian doctrine describes Lucifer as "evil": malevolently predatory upon humanity and virtue.
The Vertigo Lucifer is not so much evil as disinterested in anything except his own concerns.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I'd say Lucifer if it wasn't for the fact that Vertigo didn't invent him.
And after that I wouldn't say I actually like the other characters listed. They just fit the invention of the story to make it flow.
Other.
they sort of did. the lucifer character is based on a lot of things (like sandman is and all of fables is) but the character itself is unique in many respects.
Bow ties are coool.
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Dream
Constantine
Swampthing
Agent Graves
AnimalMan
shade
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
I shit on Hogan!
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Most Christian doctrine describes Lucifer as "evil": malevolently predatory upon humanity and virtue.
He's also described by Catechism and New Testament as devious and cunning, and his actions kind of make his pride pretty evident. Because the Lucifer storyline hasn't actually happened, Christian doctrine doesn't say anything about this character's apathy--However, quite simply, I'd go so far as to say that all the priests I know wouldn't find Mike Carey's depiction of his personality off base, the changing elements from the storylines aside.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
they sort of did. the lucifer character is based on a lot of things (like sandman is and all of fables is) but the character itself is unique in many respects.
I don't deny his uniquity in some respects (due to story for story's sake), but there's nothing loose about his Biblical foundation is all I'm saying.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I'd say Lucifer if it wasn't for the fact that Vertigo didn't invent him.
And after that I wouldn't say I actually like the other characters listed. They just fit the invention of the story to make it flow.
Other.
Bigby Wolf, Sandman, Swamp Thing, Christopher Chance, Animal Man, Shade, and even Death, depending on how you look at it, existed as characters before getting the Vertigo threatment.
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DAMMIT! I didn't notice that Yorick was also on the list until AFTER I voted!
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
The Vertigo Lucifer is not so much evil as disinterested in anything except his own concerns.
I like the line in Season's of Mist where Lucifer is complaining about the phrase "the devil made me do it." he says "I never made anyone do anything."
Bow ties are coool.
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Missed this: Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
The Vertigo Lucifer is not so much evil as disinterested in anything except his own concerns.
Considering the fact that he wanted to overthrow God, I don't think it's out of the ball park to dub his "concerns" as evil.
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only if you define evil as 'going against the will of god' in wich case not murdering could potentially be evil and murder be holy if god were to decree it. most of us can see that as rather silly.
Last edited by Uschi; 2005-03-20 12:13 AM.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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God is all good and all knowing. Carey hasn't implied otherwise. He's even made a note of the negativity caused by sin in several of the storylines. Clearly, a Christian belief as opposed to the unconditional causality theory as endorsed by atheists....And, apparently, agnostics.
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I voted Swamp Thing, even though, as noted earlier, he wasn't actually created by Vertigo.
It's not an easy list to make, as there are so many great Vertigo characters. Some of my favorites that weren't listed:
Flex Mentallo
Shade
Tim Hunter
Sandman(Wesley Dodds)
Enigma
Christopher Chance
Crazy Jane
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I agree with Dave's comment, that the Gaiman/Carey portrayal of Lucifer isn't really "evil", just self-interested. Similar to John Constantine. An anti-hero, but not a villain.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I agree with Dave's comment, that the Gaiman/Carey portrayal of Lucifer isn't really "evil", just self-interested. Similar to John Constantine. An anti-hero, but not a villain.
A person can be only interested in his own gain and be evil in the process.
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I didn't say he couldn't be both. I said I thought he was one but not the other.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
A person can be only interested in his own gain and be evil in the process.
Take that to the Deep Throat forum and you'll get shit, mostly from people on the right I'm guessing.
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Oh I get it now.
Cram it Mxy.
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I'm serious, I've noticed there's plenty of people who only care about themselves and what directly affects them, and think it's all right.
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Is this about America not caring about what other countries think about it? Cuz' if so, I find that analogy flawed.
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Nah, I'm not talking about the US... just a certain kind of people, in general.
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anyway...
Crazy jane
Cliff Steele
Shade
Animalman
Death
Sandman
Constantine
Swamp Thing
Flex Mentallo
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Annie - Christopher Chase was there. Quote:
Pariah said:
Missed this:
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
The Vertigo Lucifer is not so much evil as disinterested in anything except his own concerns.
Considering the fact that he wanted to overthrow God, I don't think it's out of the ball park to dub his "concerns" as evil.
Gaiman had him disinterested in God's job: he retired from hell to run a piano bar.
Carey had him set up a universe in competition with God's.
Christian beliefs generally have him as a seducer of virtue (as an aside, I have an excellently researched nonfiction book called "The Devil: A Biography" which I recommend to people interested in the diabolic). Vertigo's Lucifer is not in the slightest bit interested in the vast majority of sentient beings.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
You mean you want to spank the monkey.
A broader spread this time around, not surprisingly.
And now a big push for Dream and Swamp Thing (because of the recent series?), while The Invisibles characters and Yorick score poorly.
I've recently found Yorick to be a whingy bitch, and have grown a bit sick of Y: The Last Man.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Christian beliefs generally have him as a seducer of virtue (as an aside, I have an excellently researched nonfiction book called "The Devil: A Biography" which I recommend to people interested in the diabolic). Vertigo's Lucifer is not in the slightest bit interested in the vast majority of sentient beings.
This is a paradox. You can say that Carey set up an alternate universe, but he's clearly created a strong foundation out of Christian principle/doctrine. Lucifer wants to overthrow God. To do that while in hell, he had to seduce the earth-dwelling souls (technically, one could say that he wasn't interested in their lives even then). Carey may not have wanted this to be the case, but its a pillar he can't remove if he wants to keep everything else, especially if the very notion of "sin" still exists within his universe (and it does). And this doesn't even begin to cover the fact that wanting to overthrow God carries the apparent implication of pursuing power. And that certain power is what governs God's creation, cuz'....Well....It is God. Anyway, to want that power, you'd be wanting power over all things--And that obviously includes humans.
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Quote:
Pig Iron said:
anyway...
Crazy jane
Cliff Steele
Shade
Animalman
Death
Sandman
Constantine
Swamp Thing
Flex Mentallo
I like your list.
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Annie - Christopher Chase was there.
Strange, I must have missed him the first time around.
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
And now a big push for Dream and Swamp Thing (because of the recent series?), while The Invisibles characters and Yorick score poorly.
I love Y-The Last Man, but Yorick might be least favorite character in the series. He's whiny and a screwup, but not the lovable kind.
I was never a huge Invisibles fan.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I love Y-The Last Man, but Yorick might be least favorite character in the series. He's whiny and a screwup, but not the lovable kind.
Amazing. We agree.
I always get so annoyed at people who like Yorick simply because the book is good.
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I liked one character in that series and she got killed I think.
Great books.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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I like Yorick because he's a whiny screw up. He's probably what I'd be like in the same situation.
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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Whiny Yorick has put me off the series, but its the flippant/poignant thematic writing whcih annoyed me. Its the same sort of writing we see in Ex Machina. Its annoying. Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Christian beliefs generally have him as a seducer of virtue (as an aside, I have an excellently researched nonfiction book called "The Devil: A Biography" which I recommend to people interested in the diabolic). Vertigo's Lucifer is not in the slightest bit interested in the vast majority of sentient beings.
This is a paradox. You can say that Carey set up an alternate universe, but he's clearly created a strong foundation out of Christian principle/doctrine.
Yes.
Quote:
Lucifer wants to overthrow God.
Not in Vertigo. He set up a competitive existence.
Quote:
To do that while in hell, he had to seduce the earth-dwelling souls (technically, one could say that he wasn't interested in their lives even then).
Not in Vertigo. Wasn't interested.
Quote:
Carey may not have wanted this to be the case, but its a pillar he can't remove if he wants to keep everything else, especially if the very notion of "sin" still exists within his universe (and it does).
"Sin" has very little to do with Gaiman's or Carey's plots. Quite the opposite for Carey: Lucifer kills a large percentage of the population of Beijing in one story simaply as a means of dealing with a threat. And no consequence, only a few mild words from Michael. And then 15 issues or so later he destroys a realm with millions of souls just to honour a debt. No consequences, because by that stage God has quit being God.
Quote:
And this doesn't even begin to cover the fact that wanting to overthrow God carries the apparent implication of pursuing power. And that certain power is what governs God's creation, cuz'....Well....It is God. Anyway, to want that power, you'd be wanting power over all things--And that obviously includes humans.
And two of the Titans. after God's departure, Lucifer only sits on God's throne to mock Michael. He flippantly reliquishes it because he does not covet it. He has his own playground.
You haven't read the series, have you?
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